Were we wrong to want HMs gone?

[pacman000]

How are any of these things less immersive than your character not being able to ride their Pokemon without them knowing a certain move?

Actually, that makes sense. You’d have to train an animal to let you ride it, & HMs/TMs were just a way of simulating training within a game.

 

[UltimateNinja]

They should've changed the HMs in the way you don't need to learn the move to give the Pokemon the ability to cut trees, surf etc.

Like it or not, it gave the regions an unique boost of exploration even if it's only a potion behind a rock. Also the puzzles and the environment (Fog/Waterfalls, strength puzzles etc.) made routes and caves stand out more. All that benefits optional backtracking and the sense for exploration.

Also road blocks with them is less bullshit than having a guy say you can't pass for a also bullshit reason.

 

[Orphalesion]

Not having HMs led to more in-game team diversity alongside their movepools which is always a good thing.

This. I went through the whole of Galar without ever havign a water Pokemon on my team, and it was so nice. Particularly because I didn't care for any of the new water Pokemon introduced in Gen 8.

1. Some HMs were actually good moves

You are of course right that some HM moves are good or can lead to unique strategies. But to me that's irrelevant as long as they are undeletable and required for in-game progress. They can keep the moves, they just needed to stop forcing me to use those moves to experience non-battle in-game content.
Surf could be the best move in all of Pokemon, I still wouldn't like it as long as I'm forced to teach it to a Pokemon so that I can get to the next town.

 

[Aduro]

You are of course right that some HM moves are good or can lead to unique strategies. But to me that's irrelevant as long as they are undeletable and required for in-game progress. They can keep the moves, they just needed to stop forcing me to use those moves to experience non-battle in-game content.
Surf could be the best move in all of Pokemon, I still wouldn't like it as long as I'm forced to teach it to a Pokemon so that I can get to the next town.

I think that's less of an issue, there is a move deleter in every town now. And you can simply swap them out with box link when you need them. I don't think HM Moves will be as annoying as they were in DPPt if they come back in remakes.

 

[Dragalge]

They should've changed the HMs in the way you don't need to learn the move to give the Pokemon the ability to cut trees, surf etc.

Like it or not, it gave the regions an unique boost of exploration even if it's only a potion behind a rock. Also the puzzles and the environment (Fog/Waterfalls, strength puzzles etc.) made routes and caves stand out more. All that benefits optional backtracking and the sense for exploration.

Also road blocks with them is less bullshit than having a guy say you can't pass for a also bullshit reason.

Which can already be accomplished as shown with Alola's Pokeride.

 

[Orphalesion]

Pokeride is really the solution for this, imho. It doesn't force you to have a specific kind of Pokemon with you or anything.

I've already said in the past that a compromise could be that they'd allow us to "register" some species of our own Pokemon as Pokerides, if we want to (but always optional)
You still don't need to have the Pokemon on your team, it just shows up when you call it with Poke ride, and if you don't have any species that could be used for a specific ride then the standard Pokemon will appear.

 

[KillerDraco]

I think we're looking at two separate issues here. One is "Should there be more interactivity in the world outside of battle" and the other is "Should HMs be re-implemented".

Let's address the second issue first. I think most people have made it pretty clear that they do not favor re-implementing HMs, at least in the same way that they always existed in the past. They were completely intrusive, demanding an already scarce moveslot, if not an entire team slot. This contradicted the core component of Pokemon, which is the freedom to choose your team, since you would be forced to be stuck with moves you couldn't forget which, aside from Surf and Waterfall, tended to be pretty lackluster moves in general. Plus, their perk of "Can be used infinite times without breaking" sort of stopped being a factor in Gen 5 when TMs got the same treatment. So they're kind of a relic, TBH.

But wanting more to do and interact with in the world is something more people would agree with. The wild area is one of those things that was nice in theory, but somewhat lacking in practice. While it was expansive, it unfortunately was largely empty and there wasn't much to do beyond catching Pokemon and seeking our raids (although I loved raids so that's another can of worms). IoA and CT were steps in the right direction in terms of expanding upon the wild area's diverse biomes to create a more memorable location, but there's still more they could do. It just doesn't necessarily mean going back to the old ways, but rather, looking forward to how it can be improved. Because the old ways of HMs were pretty flawed.

...That said, I wouldn't mind if the water bike stuck around. Being able to just go from land -> water without stopping was honestly a nice QoL, and I couldn't imagine trying to navigate the Isle of Armor with the old system of stopping and selecting a Pokemon to surf on.

Pokeride is really the solution for this, imho. It doesn't force you to have a specific kind of Pokemon with you or anything.

I've already said in the past that a compromise could be that they'd allow us to "register" some species of our own Pokemon as Pokerides, if we want to (but always optional)
You still don't need to have the Pokemon on your team, it just shows up when you call it with Poke ride, and if you don't have any species that could be used for a specific ride then the standard Pokemon will appear.

That's basically how the Stadium minigames worked too; you could use your own Pokemon for them if you had them, but if you didn't, you'd have standard ones so you weren't barred from accessing them.

 

[Luthor]

Did I prefer HM's? yes.

But to be honest its not what I consider to be a major problem that they were removed. I liked the puzzle element having that fit onto your pokemon but generally speaking I suspect I'm in the minority and I'd rather they focus on improving the bigger issues I see in the games rather than risk a backlash from the people who really don't like them.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Also road blocks with them is less bullshit than having a guy say you can't pass for a also bullshit reason.

Is it really though? A tree that you can't simply push past that magically regrows mere minutes after you cut it down, or a boulder puzzle preventing you from passing through a cave that serves as the only route between two populated areas (are you telling me our characters are the first ones to ever pass through these caves, or do the boulder puzzles magically reset for each person or something?) is less bullshit than a road being closed for roadwork?

 

[Nodqfan]

No HM's were the most useless thing and limited team building because you always had to have Pokemon that have to be able to learn these moves just to get by some puzzles or to get some items that are in unreachable locations I much prefer the Ride Pokemon from Gen VII.

 

[Aduro]

Is it really though? A tree that you can't simply push past that magically regrows mere minutes after you cut it down, or a boulder puzzle preventing you from passing through a cave that serves as the only route between two populated areas (are you telling me our characters are the first ones to ever pass through these caves, or do the boulder puzzles magically reset for each person or something?) is less bullshit than a road being closed for roadwork?

I can suspend disbelief for the former, because its integrated with the region. I can't suspend disdain for the latter, because its so transparent that Team Yell are just there to stop you progressing in an order that Game Freak doesn't like.

 

[pacman000]

This. I went through the whole of Galar without ever havign a water Pokemon on my team, and it was so nice. Particularly because I didn't care for any of the new water Pokemon introduced in Gen 8.


You are of course right that some HM moves are good or can lead to unique strategies. But to me that's irrelevant as long as they are undeletable and required for in-game progress. They can keep the moves, they just needed to stop forcing me to use those moves to experience non-battle in-game content.
Surf could be the best move in all of Pokemon, I still wouldn't like it as long as I'm forced to teach it to a Pokemon so that I can get to the next town.

I think we're looking at two separate issues here. One is "Should there be more interactivity in the world outside of battle" and the other is "Should HMs be re-implemented".

Let's address the second issue first. I think most people have made it pretty clear that they do not favor re-implementing HMs, at least in the same way that they always existed in the past. They were completely intrusive, demanding an already scarce moveslot, if not an entire team slot. This contradicted the core component of Pokemon, which is the freedom to choose your team, since you would be forced to be stuck with moves you couldn't forget which, aside from Surf and Waterfall, tended to be pretty lackluster moves in general. Plus, their perk of "Can be used infinite times without breaking" sort of stopped being a factor in Gen 5 when TMs got the same treatment. So they're kind of a relic, TBH.

But wanting more to do and interact with in the world is something more people would agree with. The wild area is one of those things that was nice in theory, but somewhat lacking in practice. While it was expansive, it unfortunately was largely empty and there wasn't much to do beyond catching Pokemon and seeking our raids (although I loved raids so that's another can of worms). IoA and CT were steps in the right direction in terms of expanding upon the wild area's diverse biomes to create a more memorable location, but there's still more they could do. It just doesn't necessarily mean going back to the old ways, but rather, looking forward to how it can be improved. Because the old ways of HMs were pretty flawed.

...That said, I wouldn't mind if the water bike stuck around. Being able to just go from land -> water without stopping was honestly a nice QoL, and I couldn't imagine trying to navigate the Isle of Armor with the old system of stopping and selecting a Pokemon to surf on.



That's basically how the Stadium minigames worked too; you could use your own Pokemon for them if you had them, but if you didn't, you'd have standard ones so you weren't barred from accessing them.

No HM's were the most useless thing and limited team building because you always had to have Pokemon that have to be able to learn these moves just to get by some puzzles or to get some items that are in unreachable locations I much prefer the Ride Pokemon from Gen VII.

I've been seeing a lot of posts like this. Problem is, I see the overworld as part of the game; balancing its needs with battle needs would be part of building a decent team. As such, HMs didn't limit team building; they were just something else you had to consider when building a team.

 

[OwensJB]

Glad they're gone so I don't have to waste my time teaching one of my Pokemon the moves Rock Smash or Defog or any of the other annoying Hidden Machine moves.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I've been seeing a lot of posts like this. Problem is, I see the overworld as part of the game; balancing its needs with battle needs would be part of building a decent team. As such, HMs didn't limit team building; they were just something else you had to consider when building a team.

But you can entirely bypass them by keeping a HM slave and subbing it out for a better Pokemon for important battles at Gyms and evil team's bases and such. So even if we take this at face value (which I really don't to be honest; seems like a bit of a reach at best) then it's still poorly integrated into the rest of the battle system.

 

[Xaby]

But you can entirely bypass them by keeping a HM slave and subbing it out for a better Pokemon for important battles at Gyms and evil team's bases and such. So even if we take this at face value (which I really don't to be honest; seems like a bit of a reach at best) then it's still poorly integrated into the rest of the battle system.

I think there has to be a middle ground though, where you can still implement such field interactions as well as your competitive team. And I do think that while sticking into the traditional HM idea is a step backward, relinquishing the whole system in itself creates some missed opportunities.

Take Galar, for example. How impressive do you think the vistas will be if you were able to use Waterfall on some areas? The problem with Sword and Shield is that it really feels like a small region. And while that is a subjective, personal opinion, I must say that it feels like Final Fantasy hallway simulators that you can literally just ride around in in your bike and you can reach just about everything.

I will compare this to my experience in Pokémon Gold where I went back to catch Lugia in the Whirlpool Islands. I didn't use an HM slave in that game and so I had to carefully consider which Pokémon to bring into exploring. Add to that that I have to bring a False Swiper and a Sleeper, choosing which 6 to bring made me think at least of what my limitations were and how I can address them.

I feel that it is much more constructive to the game for developers and designers to find a middle ground, and not just go to the extremes.

 

[Red and Blue]

Bringing back Pokeride for future Generations seems like a good middle ground for people who want more obstacles in a region.

You could add in Pokemon like Scyther for Cutting trees and Seaking for climbing Waterfalls

 

[octoboy]

Diamond was the latest game I played, so I can't speak from too much personal experience. I do have some thoughts from reading through this thread, which I thought I'd share.

It seems hard to deny that Pokémon has a major railroading problem; the developer's attempts to ensure that the player follows the general plot set up for them are often pretty painfully conspicuous, especially in hindsight. From the beginning, these included arbitrary roadblocks, whose removal was superficially coincidental with actions of players which actually were required to cause them, which have been apparently exacerbated since HMs have been done away with, now being left the only option.

The one advantage HMs had over these was that they allowed the player to personally clear the path, making it less arbitrary, and also involved the player's pokémon themselves. However, this pretty clearly came at a high cost - hidden moves were, excepting surf, generally pure utility moves with very situational uses, which would often restrict a player's party and their movesets to include them. These problems were clear nuisances to many, making their removal well worth the cost of their advantages.

So, it seems to me, going off both Aduro's and the other users' comments, there are a few positives held by HMs, but which probably can be returned to Pokémon without outright returning to HMs themselves. A few possible solutions I thought up:

- Doing away with (hard) roadblocks altogether. A lot of the roadblocks HMs were designed to solve seem to be dedicated to enforcing a certain order of gym battles. While having their own set of problems, HMs were at least openly made available as a result of earning badges, unlike the egregious arbitrary events which held you back until your unfinished business in the latest city was done. Perhaps a solution would be to do away with the moveslot element, but return to the badge-granted authority; have any attack be able to get rid of roadblocks, but have such terraforming be a right reserved to those who have earned the right badge. This might not be as easily applied to the likes of surf, fly and flash, but it's a thought.

- Doing away with (hard) roadblocks altogether. Of course, it is a question how necessary strictly enforcing such an order is. If further levels and battles get more difficult, and all badges are required to challenge the League anyway, it seems arguable that challenging the gyms in the order that they come is the most reasonable choice anyway. Perhaps the difficulty curve in itself is actually sufficient in at least nudging players towards linear playstyle, and straight-up enforcing it isn't needed - maybe ambitious players ought to be allowed to go the harder route of venturing into the more treacherous areas, and taking on the more difficult gyms right away, which might be too much for some, but never with permanent repercussions, what with there always being pokémon centres, and the option to backtrack and grind in easier areas.

Of course, that being said, another option might be a suggestion I've heard from a few people...

- Doing away with linear playstyle altogether. The fact that the gyms display a difficulty curve that just so happens to match the route the player's character takes to the league has always been a tad curious, and especially considering that the gym leaders display alternate teams when faced again implies that the gym leaders might in fact not have progressively stronger teams, so much as they present challenges which suit the number of badges their challenger has - which in most cases for the player is a foregone conclusion for each leader. What if that suggestion were made an open fact, and instead of being designed as a line of progressively higher-level teams, the gym leaders were each given eight different possible teams, the one they use referring to the challenger's badge count? The difficulty curve would still exist, but seem much less arbitrary, and make the region feel more natural, rather than a tailored progressive quest made by the developer. Of course, apart from the gyms, there are a few other game elements that might be harder to adapt out of linear playstyle. Wild encounters being higher level on "later" areas of the game is something that would be hard to adapt to this style, as wild pokémon wouldn't have such etiquette as trainers so as to not attack those with lower level pokémon. Though, then again, wild pokémon having a different level average in different places was always a bit odd. Evil teams would likely be even harder to incorporate into a game like this, though then again, maybe this will end up meaning players will have to go out of their way to find legendaries rather than have game antagonists inevitably leading them right to them once they've conveniently got their master ball. It's all just a thought, really.

In short, it seems doing away with HMs had benefits and costs, and the costs probably would be better dealt with by trying something new rather than reverting to HMs.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Everyone saying HMs should be gone and field moves should stay hit the nail on the head. Forcing you to teach your Pokemon specific moves in order to progress in the overworld is definitely limiting to team variety and that part of the mechanic needs to stay gone, but the field obstacles themselves made the exploration more engaging by adding more of a puzzle solving element to the overworld. Figuring out which order to push a series of boulders to progress, finding trees you can cut down in a maze of trees, going up and down cliffs to navigate a series of paths, those are the kinds of mechanics that help make the overworld less bland like the Wild Area, the game needs those.

And Poke Ride isn't quite right either because it tries to force you to bond with random NPC Pokemon. These Pokemon aren't mine, I want to explore the overworld with my team, not someone else's that you're shoving down my throat. So while Poke Ride was an improvement in terms of not forcing you to have specific moves on your team, it was a step backwards in terms of your Pokemon being involved in the exploration. Having your Pokemon be the ones to clear overworld obstacles instead of some random Pokemon does create a sort of bond with your Pokemon, that your Pokemon are helping you on your journey and overcome all of the trials that are in your way. That sense is definitely lost with Poke Ride.

I think the best way to implement field moves is the way that @Orphalesion suggested, have a similar mechanic to Poke Ride, but let you register your own Pokemon instead of being stuck with NPC Pokemon. Then you can summon it whenever you need it, even if it's rotting in your PC. In addition, they could let the Pokemon following you use its field move if you happen to have it out, which would give that mechanic more utility.

One other thing I'd like to see them do is expand field moves so you could use multiple types of field moves on different types of obstacles, giving the game more of a BotW feel where you could figure out your own way to clear an obstacle instead of forcing you to clear a specific obstacle with a specific field move. For example, you could cut down a tree with your Scyther, or maybe you could burn it with your Vulpix, or you could bash into it and knock it down with your Bastiodon. Need to get across that river in front of you? Surf across it with your Lapras, freeze a path across it with your Vanillite, jump across it with your Skiddo, or have your Tangela pull you across with its vines. You could climb up a mountain with your Golem or dig right through it with your Drillbur. The possibilities are endless and this could really allow you to be customize your team how you want it instead of forcing you to have a specific type with you to clear a specific obstacle

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

With the exception of Flash, I liked the overworld effect HMs had outside of battle as a way to clear an obstacle or puzzle. Cut seemed silly with the twig denying you passage but if t was tweaked to be a thick bush then it would be less silly. I liked Defog clearing the foggy areas in Sinnoh and the idea that future games could have more weather clearing field moves to halt Sandstorms or Thunderstorms by using similar moves.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

With the exception of Flash, I liked the overworld effect HMs had outside of battle as a way to clear an obstacle or puzzle. Cut seemed silly with the twig denying you passage but if t was tweaked to be a thick bush then it would be less silly. I liked Defog clearing the foggy areas in Sinnoh and the idea that future games could have more weather clearing field moves to halt Sandstorms or Thunderstorms by using similar moves.

Eh, Defog just seemed like Flash 2.0 and the accuracy debuffs that occurred when you didn't clear it were extremely irritating. I don't really like visibility based obstacles, they're what I call "soft obstacles" in that they don't actually stop you, they just make it more annoying to progress without clearing them. Soft obstacles don't really add as much to the exploration because it doesn't really encourage any creative problem solving to navigate, it's just a nuisance that makes navigation more annoying. I really don't want to see any more soft obstacles like that or weather effects that decrease visibility like sandstorm and fog in the Wild Area.

Here's the field moves I want to see return:
-Cut
-Fly (now merged with Soaring mechanics so you can explore the skies)
-Surf
-Strength
-Rock Smash
-Waterfall/Jet (now allows you to traverse upstream, not just up waterfalls, but rapids and water currents)
-Dive (now features natural swimming mechanics allowing you to dive/resurface at whatever depth you want instead of diving down to a set elevation)
-Rock Climb (can now freely climb around climbable surfaces instead of automatically charging up and down a set path)
-Jump (allows you to jump backwards up ledges and across small gaps/stones, like the ones in Tin Tower or XY)
-Teleport (in addition to warping you back to any Pokemon Center, you now can use it to warp across short distances and through certain walls)

And here's new ones I'd like to see:
-Dig (technically old, but overhauled with a completely different function to the point of being completely different. Now allows you to dig through soft patches of dirt in walls and in the ground to create pitfalls)
-Plow (similar to Mamoswine in XY, but now instead of just destroying snow piles you can move them around, allowing you to fill holes and create ramps for you to reach new areas)
-Burn (allows you to burn certain obstacles such as trees, webs, or ice walls)
-Ram (allows you to charge into certain obstacles such as rocks and trees to destroy them or knock them over)
-Freeze (can freeze certain surfaces to create bridges)
-Glide (can glide off ledges and gently float to the ground. Will hover until the player reaches a safe surface for you to land)
-Cross (can latch onto far surfaces using vines, webs, etc.
-Lava Surf (can swim across lava)