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What are some huge points in the anime that you think completely destroys power scailing?

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Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Also a Fire Blast from a Goodra is weaker than a Flare Blitz from a Charizard.
I don't believe that stats exist in the Pokemon anime so by proxy, I don't believe STAB exists either so I can't really comment on this. And it just wasn't the Fire Blast but + other Pokemon unless the implication is that MCX could sweep Diantha's team.
 

LucasMV

Well-Known Member
I don't believe that stats exist in the Pokemon anime so by proxy, I don't believe STAB exists either so I can't really comment on this. And it just wasn't the Fire Blast but + other Pokemon unless the implication is that MCX could sweep Diantha's team.
Even then, Alain's Zard is surely stronger than Diantha's Goodra, so the move's power is also greater even if STAB didn't exist (which I doubt given how game-like the PWC was compared to previous anime battles).

And yeah, given how things went, MCX could probably sweep Diantha's non-ace pokemon, like Rillaboom did. But that's the case with every Ace pokemon in the M8. Lance's Dragonite put up a fight against Mega Gardevoir, despite being damaged and in type disadvantage. Gardevoir then put up a fight against Leon's Zard after defeating Rillaboom. Even back in DP, Flint's Infernape swept 2 of Cynthia's Pokemon before going down to her Garchomp. Their aces are always a few steps above the rest of their teams, regardless of being a Champion's team.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Even then, Alain's Zard is surely stronger than Diantha's Goodra, so the move's power is also greater even if STAB didn't exist (which I doubt given how game-like the PWC was compared to previous anime battles).

And yeah, given how things went, MCX could probably sweep Diantha's non-ace pokemon, like Rillaboom did. But that's the case with every Ace pokemon in the M8. Lance's Dragonite put up a fight against Mega Gardevoir, despite being damaged and in type disadvantage. Gardevoir then put up a fight against Leon's Zard after defeating Rillaboom. Even back in DP, Flint's Infernape swept 2 of Cynthia's Pokemon before going down to her Garchomp. Their aces are always a few steps above the rest of their teams, regardless of being a Champion's team.
I mean I’m one to call Diantha weak but given the fact that Leon called it a close match (it wasn’t) and Mega Gardevior last longer than MCX did against GMAX did against base Charizard I doubt that’s the case. I doubt honestly any Champion could beat Leon so this was just a horrible case of power scaling then making it seem like MCX could destroy all of Diantha’s Pokémon.

Another theory I have is that she didn’t get a chance to set up her screens which might make that situation even worst if she does depend on it.

I wouldn’t say that their aces are way above their other Pokémon. I would say that Excadrill, Milotic , Cradily (who heavily carried that fight) did well despite not being their aces. And I don’t think an ace could completely sweep another Champions team by itself. Like Pikachu, I’m more than possible MCX, Gyarados (Dragonite?), Gardevior, Haxorus (as a Champions ace), Garchomp and Metagross have all went down as some point beyond this league where they had to utilize other Pokémon.

That doesn’t really make sense to me tbh. Flint might have defeated some of Cynthia’s Pokémon but he clearly those three took a toll on him because his match with Garchomp in the last episode lasted about a minute and all his other fainted to her two. If Infernape did beat them it’s because they were worn out from his other 5.

Don’t forget the slug tanked a SolerBeam. This makes me think their other Pokémon aren’t THAT behind others.
 
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Almighty Zard

He has returned.
I don't believe that stats exist in the Pokemon anime so by proxy, I don't believe STAB exists either so I can't really comment on this. And it just wasn't the Fire Blast but + other Pokemon unless the implication is that MCX could sweep Diantha's team.

thinking about it more if you think Diantha's Goodra not doing much to Rilaboom was bad, then Raihan's was even worse.

Cause let's think about this, Gengar had already take ALOT of damage from Raihan's Flygon and used 2 of it's 3 dyna move attacks to take that thing down, yet Raihan's Goodra comes in, throws up rain dance and attacks with Surf, Hydro Pump and Thunder in rapid succession while all G-Max Gengar who is still alive through this pain manages to fire it's last dyna move, and both go down.

So despite being extremely weakened, Raihan's Goodra had to use 3 powerful moves (two of which were amplified) against something that was weakened yet only managed a draw? Not to mention that you'd think Goodra would be bulky enough to take at least 1 dyna move, but it couldn't even do that, to me that's even worse than Diantha's Goodra's performance.

and i don't even need to mention where Ash's Goodra went wrong, the writers hate that thing for some reason.
 

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
The Leon vs Diantha fight is perhaps the worst moment in all of PM because no matter how you twist it there's no way for it to make any logical sense.

On its first portrayal and fight Alain was able to ride it out of G-Max with Chestnaught and while it defeated Chestnaught, who didn't go out without giving a good fight, for it then be handily defeated by Charizard X. It seemed like a normal enough Pokemon considering all, considering the stage. Strong, duh, it's a Champion Pokemon after all, but nothing crazy.

But then later on the gorilla is somehow Super Saiyan 4 Goku-tier. Based on the clipshow we got, it soloed FOUR out of Diantha's Pokemon, defeating even some of them with non-super effective moves. We also have to assume that Diantha either didn't set-up screens for reasons or that she did set up screens and the gorilla went and and swept through her entire team through screens anyway which just makes it even worse.

Some people after the Ash vs Leon fight are calling "Leon defeated Diantha by chipping at her entire team with Dragon Tail and then finishing them all with Rillaboom" but that's completely nuts. I seriously am supposed to believe that Diantha couldn't think of a way to deal with that with not just one but with FIVE Pokemon? Or that it took her so long to do so that the entirety of her team was at OHKO range for the gorilla? That Leon just stood there going DORAGON TAIRU LOL? That all of Diantha's Pokemon just stood there taking it? That she didn't yell a single order?

And again, based on the clipshow, only Hawlucha and Tyrantrum fought Dragapult, so this is just a massive assumption and stretch too. Trying to scram a square peg on a round hole.

We also have to assume that absolutely not a single of Diantha's Pokemon was able to damage it or wear it down in any sort of significant way too because of how fresh the gorilla still looked.
And then there's ****ing Fire Blast, Jesus Christ.

Any justification or attempt to make sense out of that battle is pointless.
With 95% of it being off-screened it is impossible to make reasonable speculation about what strategies Diantha used or what Leon did to counter them and vice versa that isn't "Diantha lost 50IQ points because of Leon's battoru aura".

I genuinely cannot comprehend how anyone can defend this "battle" in any way, shape or form.
 

Yce288

Grass type FTW
And I’m talking about big. For me it’s realizing that Lance was on Leon’s level during the first episodes of the series then gets beaten by Diantha who then gets destroyed by Leon.
Doesnt says much since Lance had a bad matchup against Diantha and he gave Dragonite a fighting type move instead of steel type move which could have changed the battle's result.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
I think there is a need to acknowledge that the Pokemon in the anime are not sets of numbers, IVs, EVs. They are more like professional athletes and can therefore have off days, days where they don't move as fast as they should, days where they can't quite muster their full power. It's long been an issue where people expect full transitivity and that's just never going to be the case.

Like Pikachu might never be as strong as he was in that Leon fight even with another 25 years of training, because Pikachu essentially came in clutch and had an A+ winning mentality to access new strength.

As a result there are some definite times where you can question the power scaling, but "x beat y and y beat z so x must beat z" doesn't always work.
 

Tabasco Boshi

★★★★★
I think there is a need to acknowledge that the Pokemon in the anime are not sets of numbers, IVs, EVs. They are more like professional athletes and can therefore have off days, days where they don't move as fast as they should, days where they can't quite muster their full power. It's long been an issue where people expect full transitivity and that's just never going to be the case.

Like Pikachu might never be as strong as he was in that Leon fight even with another 25 years of training, because Pikachu essentially came in clutch and had an A+ winning mentality to access new strength.

As a result there are some definite times where you can question the power scaling, but "x beat y and y beat z so x must beat z" doesn't always work.
Finally some common sense. Thank you.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
Understood. Well that sucks if was closest to her level at the time and made it into the Masters. It would've been nice to see him in the Masters Eight when it closed (which made more sense than Alain but we seen what happened to him) or have fight him Flint during the PWC. It's funny and sad that the Inefernap vs Garchomp match from 2009 was a better climax than Garchomp vs Lucario
I remember people being against Flint being in the M8 (even though he was only there for at least 1 confirmed episode) so he's just suffering from success. For as much as I like Drasna, he definitely should've battled Flint as his first E4 win so people could get over their initial battle. DP was peak so it's to be expected
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
Meh, Gorillander destroying four Carne Pokemon doesn't shock me.

The gorilla has always been crazy and felt like a secondary ace to Dande's team. Satoshi needed three Pokemon to overcome it along with Unonoragon's awakened powers. Y'all forget Dande is the World Monarch.
 

Broseph08

Well-Known Member
Meh, Gorillander destroying four Carne Pokemon doesn't shock me.

The gorilla has always been crazy and felt like a secondary ace to Dande's team. Satoshi needed three Pokemon to overcome it along with Unonoragon's awakened powers. Y'all forget Dande is the World Monarch.
IMO I do think it doesn't mesh as much with the Alain fight. I would have changed it so that Rillaboom took down two of Alain's Pokemon and got a couple shots in on his Charizard as well. It would fit a lot more then as a secondary ace as it also would go on to take down more than half of Diantha's team and coming pretty close to taking down half of Ash's team as well if not for Dracovish cheese.

I don't really like his performance against Diantha but I'm glad that they at least still treated it as a powerhouse in the Ash battle.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I remember people being against Flint being in the M8 (even though he was only there for at least 1 confirmed episode) so he's just suffering from success. For as much as I like Drasna, he definitely should've battled Flint as his first E4 win so people could get over their initial battle. DP was peak so it's to be expected
On this I actually agree with you
Flint being in the Masters 8 and canonically the strongest E4 member is perfect, fits very well and is fitting. And yeah Ash vs Flint would have been perfect, altho I did like Clemont and Bonnie being involved in the Drasna episode.
Best would be having an extra Hyper class fight with Flint before he battles Raihan orrr have Raihan be the one after Drasna and then Flint be the masters 8 promotion match
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
IMO I do think it doesn't mesh as much with the Alain fight. I would have changed it so that Rillaboom took down two of Alain's Pokemon and got a couple shots in on his Charizard as well. It would fit a lot more then as a secondary ace as it also would go on to take down more than half of Diantha's team and coming pretty close to taking down half of Ash's team as well if not for Dracovish cheese.

I don't really like his performance against Diantha but I'm glad that they at least still treated it as a powerhouse in the Ash battle.
To fair Brigarron managed to smack the ape a few times and surely fighting Alan's ace with a advantage and recoiling move would be too much for it. I can buy Lizardon is about on level with or equal to four Carne mons that being said the out-of-universe reason was them not wanting to spend time showing off a fight between two characters with a nothing burger dynamic rather than power scaling meaning anything.
 

sutellakiara

Shirona, my beloved...
Meh, Gorillander destroying four Carne Pokemon doesn't shock me.

The gorilla has always been crazy and felt like a secondary ace to Dande's team. Satoshi needed three Pokemon to overcome it along with Unonoragon's awakened powers. Y'all forget Dande is the World Monarch.
Because you're looking at it in hindsight. After both the Diantha AND Ash battles performances. You aren't thinking of it coming from just Alan's battle anymore.
You seriously are telling me that anyone thought "Diantha's gonna get over half of her team swept by the Pokemon that Alan's managed to give a somewhat even match even while G-Maxed and then oneshot with his Charizard while that Pokemon doesn't even G-Maxes this time"?
If you went back in time and told anyone that would happen they'd have called you insane and that even for how low PM can sink it wouldn't be THAT dumb. No one thought that Rillaboom was Leon's "secondary ace" then, just another one of his mons.
At best everyone expected Diantha to get swept by Charizard or something like that. You think people were having a meltdown over that episode just for funsies?

Also to be noted it's fair to assume Leon probably used Dragapult's dragon tail strat to wear out Diantha's mons rather than Rillaboom just straight up murdering them on his own
Which is ridiculously hard to believe.
I'm not gonna pretend that Diantha standing there letting herself be Dragon Tailed on end without being able to think of a single way to fight back against that is a realistic and logical scenario in any manner. Not after coming from Lance's battle where she's shown to have brains and where in the same battle she was shown to have brains against Charizard too.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Because you're looking at it in hindsight. After both the Diantha AND Ash battles performances. You aren't thinking of it coming from just Alan's battle anymore.
You seriously are telling me that anyone thought "Diantha's gonna get over half of her team swept by the Pokemon that Alan's managed to give a somewhat even match even while G-Maxed and then oneshot with his Charizard while that Pokemon doesn't even G-Maxes this time"?
If you went back in time and told anyone that would happen they'd have called you insane and that even for how low PM can sink it wouldn't be THAT dumb. No one thought that Rillaboom was Leon's "secondary ace" then, just another one of his mons.
At best everyone expected Diantha to get swept by Charizard or something like that. You think people were having a meltdown over that episode just for funsies?


Which is ridiculously hard to believe.
I'm not gonna pretend that Diantha standing there letting herself be Dragon Tailed on end without being able to think of a single way to fight back against that is a realistic and logical scenario in any manner. Not after coming from Lance's battle where she's shown to have brains and where in the same battle she was shown to have brains against Charizard too.
Who's to say she didn't counter attack tho? Dragapult could have proven to be fickle to be defeated but eventually it did while taking out one mon, but the damage could still be significant enough for Rillaboom to take advantage. No one's really assuming Diantha just stood helpless, just that Leon had the upper hand
 
People trying to justify Leon vs Diantha is ****ing funny, instead of just admitting that it was bad writing, lack of timing, disrespect to a champion and an unnecessary result, they prefer to defend the garbage bags just because it has the name "Pokémon" written on a paper.

Lol, I hope that in some future in some kind of tournament in the anime, in the games or something like that, Diantha will defeat Leon and she can get revenge.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
The fact of the matter is that Leon had to fight Diantha because that would’ve meant he defeated three of the Masters Eight and same on the other side with Ash. It just so happened they decided to feed the Kalos trainers to Leon. Also they obviously did this to save animation quite frankly ie making it a half battle/filler. As bad as it sounds nobody cared about Diantha and that's why besides how Leon looked power scaling wise, nobody cares it was her but the fight in general.

The anime made this tricky because what are you suppose to think? Kalos trainers are weak or Leon is just that powerful because this same thing didn’t happen with Lance or Raihan.

Also let’s not pretend like Diantha wasn’t easy bait for this. Lance already battled Leon, people wanted Alain to lose some way and somehow as “revenge”, Iris is a former main character, with an expensive voice actor they weren’t going to waste and Steven + Cynthia have popularity on their side.
 
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Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
Because you're looking at it in hindsight. After both the Diantha AND Ash battles performances. You aren't thinking of it coming from just Alan's battle anymore.
Well not everything has to be spelled out in ABC ordering. Looking at the bigger picture Gorillander is Dande's main Galar starter mirroring his owning of one in-game and likely the most ideal way to show off the only non-final form Go starter in a cool way. It kicked off the M8 and only Daimaxed for the sake of hyping up the crowd (Dande is a showman) and despite being stalled still took out Brigarron. Alan finishes off the gorilla quick with his ace and a SE recoil move to be safe and we the ~amazing~ and ~hype~ Lizardon vs. Lizardon fight (showmanship) where he crushes even the Mega Evolved version of the species with his own in base, cementing his superiority as World Monarch. That battle felt more of a performance of Dande's theatrics and charm.
You seriously are telling me that anyone thought "Diantha's gonna get over half of her team swept by the Pokemon that Alan's managed to give a somewhat even match even while G-Maxed and then oneshot with his Charizard while that Pokemon doesn't even G-Maxes this time"?
If you went back in time and told anyone that would happen they'd have called you insane and that even for how low PM can sink it wouldn't be THAT dumb. No one thought that Rillaboom was Leon's "secondary ace" then, just another one of his mons.
At best everyone expected Diantha to get swept by Charizard or something like that. You think people were having a meltdown over that episode just for funsies?
I'm not shocked, Dorapult + Ape destroying Carne's team and only being halted by Mega Sirknight feels about right. Again this monkey ran through Kairyu, destroying her SE Hurricane with simple drumming of all things (also dealing with her Seismic Toss clone "Kairyuuseigun") and straight up ate a Meteor Assault and just snatched Negigaknight's shield away and threw it back. It took a powered of version of the Frankestein fossil to get rid of this thing. We don't know what role Dorapult played either. But if it was Dragon Tailing and fishing for chip damage and having the monkey do clean up work like Satoshi, that would explain a lot.
 
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