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What Battle Performance Best Makes An Ash Pokémon Seem Like The Strongest Ash Pokemon Ever Seen?
- Thread starter Genaller
- Start date
keepitsimple
site of lies
Was it mentioned that Diantha was holding back? If not, what reason would she have to hold back when it would probably call her champion title into question if she lost? It looked like she was holding back at first, then saw an actual threat and became serious.
Genaller
Silver Soul
Well if you notice Gardevoir barely uses Moonblast and doesn’t use the move at all while in Mega form despite that being her most effective move against A-G, so in that sense yeah she was holding back from an offensive standpoint at least though regardless I’ve already argued that despite this we can make objective conclusions from the Ash vs Diantha rematch that place A-G decisively as Ash’s strongest Pokémon. Also yes Diantha did take the match more seriously as the battle progressed.
345ash-greninja
Auto-Memories Doll
And Flint was also confirmed to hold back vs Infernape and yet Infernape got OHKO'd, didn't it? And Flint is an E4 member, who is by some margin inferior to Champion.
ash&charizardfan
Humans are tools
Diantha was holding back in the beginning but after mega evolving her gardevoir she started to get serious, not to mention gardeviour was panting badly after the match which indicates how much it had drained its power even cynthia's garchomp didn't flinch after oneshotting paul's entire team.
Ash-Pikachu
Well-Known Member
I'm honestly getting tired of reading posts of how Diantha was holding back against Gardevoir with little to no substance. Time after Time, we've witnessed many powerful trainers test Ash's abilities, lose the advtantage, and then swiftly turn things around unexpectedly. To iterate:
It's also important to note that Diantha was impelled to use Mega Evolution and Steven/Diantha has never opted for Mega Evolution except for against Alain, Primals, Mega Rayquaza, and Lysander who was a regional threat whose efforts would eventually plague the entire world. To even suggest that Diantha held back severely despite the fact that she used her full power aka Mega Evolution when that is only largely witnessed against catastrophic threats is ludicrous. There is no way that feat means nothing.
It's also important to note that Diantha was impelled to use Mega Evolution and Steven/Diantha has never opted for Mega Evolution except for against Alain, Primals, Mega Rayquaza, and Lysander who was a regional threat whose efforts would eventually plague the entire world. To even suggest that Diantha held back severely despite the fact that she used her full power aka Mega Evolution when that is only largely witnessed against catastrophic threats is ludicrous. There is no way that feat means nothing.
Genaller
Silver Soul
@Ash-Pikachu While I agree that Diantha definitely taking the battle much more seriously after the A-G transformation she still wasn’t going all-out otherwise she would’ve spammed Moonblast which was (Mega) Gardevoir’s most effective move against A-G. In this sense it’s fine to say that we can’t conclude that Ash-Greninja > Mega Gardevoir; however, you’re right in that it’s definitely fallacious to say that we can’t conclude anything from this feat. Examples of what we can conclude:
— Mastered Ash-Greninja is decisively faster than Base Gardevoir
— It is extremely unlikely that Mastered Ash-Greninja is weaker than Base Gardevoir from a power standpoint (Moonblast included)
— Mastered Ash-Greninja is capable of causing Mega Gardevoir (and hence Base Gardevoir) substantial damage and fatigue
— Mastered Ash-Greninja is capable of breaking through Mega Gardevoir’s (and hence Base Gardevoir’s) Reflect barrier
— Based on the above it can be reasonably concluded that Mastered Ash-Greninja could defeat Base Gardevoir in a hypothetical 1 vs 1 fight where Diantha is going all-out with the intent to win (which basically translates to a lot more Moonblasts and in general a higher frequency of well-timed attacks) or at the very least should be able to give Base Gardevoir an epic fight (no way in hell is Base Gardevoir winning this decisively).
— Mastered Ash-Greninja is decisively faster than Base Gardevoir
— It is extremely unlikely that Mastered Ash-Greninja is weaker than Base Gardevoir from a power standpoint (Moonblast included)
— Mastered Ash-Greninja is capable of causing Mega Gardevoir (and hence Base Gardevoir) substantial damage and fatigue
— Mastered Ash-Greninja is capable of breaking through Mega Gardevoir’s (and hence Base Gardevoir’s) Reflect barrier
— Based on the above it can be reasonably concluded that Mastered Ash-Greninja could defeat Base Gardevoir in a hypothetical 1 vs 1 fight where Diantha is going all-out with the intent to win (which basically translates to a lot more Moonblasts and in general a higher frequency of well-timed attacks) or at the very least should be able to give Base Gardevoir an epic fight (no way in hell is Base Gardevoir winning this decisively).
Genaller
Silver Soul
I’ve mentioned this before but a hypothetical Peakachu with 10MVT would most likely regain his throne as Ash’s strongest. As for whether we’ll even get a Peakachu this series or not I’m not sure though if we do the only possible scenario I can think of would be during a hypothetical battle with Kukui/MR assuming he truly does have his in-game strength (so Champion Tier or at the very least E4 Tier). Tapu Koko could be another possibility, but I doubt it since 10MVT Ultra Space Pikachu >= Mother Beast Nihilego > Regular UB ~ Tapu (note that US Pikachu isn’t Peakachu since Peakachu with 10MVT would be much stronger still even though no previous variant of Peakachu (without a Z-move) except maybe vs Alain/Lysandre Peakachu could’ve done what 10MVT US Pikachu did). I will admit though that SM Pikachu has had pretty solid in-region consistency (compared to every other region), so I think it’s more likely than not that we will see a Peakachu this series.
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Oh and for the record both Alain’s Base Charizard and vs Alain Peakachu would definitively beat Tobias’s Latios.
Kuzehiko
That moment I found a lifetime treasure
Like, really?
Had Ash-Greninja really been a trouble for Dintha by that logic Ash should have won the Kalos league easily. It makes no sense and even though it wasn't mentioned it's balantly obvious she held back.
It's mere common sense but if y'll gonna take that feat for Ash-Greninja, good then.
Are you implying Diantha is stronger than Flint? Fiendly reminder the latter is close to Cynthia's level and as far as I am concerned Cynthia wipes the floor with Diantha.
Genaller
Silver Soul
Actually no since Alain’s Mega Charizard X is the strongest non-Champion Mega Ace trainer Pokémon in existence. Ash-Greninja is in the Champion Base Ace and E4 Mega Ace Spectrums (argument is here: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/ash-greninja-battle-viability-assessment-compilation.662620/). Deal with it or try to be the first person to give me a cogent counter-argument.
All anime Champions are of the same caliber when given access to the same reasources. There is zero reason to believe that there’s any notable difference between the likes of Cynthia and Alder (who are likely on par given how well Caitlin was doing against Cynthia) and people like Diantha and Steven (who were portrayed as equal during the TF climax). Also you need to rewatch Flint vs Cynthia; Infernape was putting up a valiant fight but it’s made blatantly clear at multiple points in that battle that Garchomp was decisively superior.
Ash-Pikachu
Well-Known Member
Alain managed to fight fairly well against Steven's Mega Metagross even though he still was decisively inferior and Alain defeated an E4 member when Charizard was evidently exhausted. E4 members in addition, have canonically done fairly well against Champions ala Cynthia vs. Flint and Cynthia vs. Caitlin. It's not outrageous that Greninja performed that feat esp. when Diantha was unnerved by Greninja's unusual power and was slightly out of sync.
Common sense suggests yes.
345ash-greninja
Auto-Memories Doll
Of course she is, Diantha is the regional Champion while Flint is an E4 member. Champions are supposed to be quite a bit ahead of E4 members judging by portrayal in the anime.
Diantha can defeat and demolish her E4 members just fine like how Cynthia did against Lucian, like how she demolished Wikstrom:
Now unless you can somehow prove that the Sinnoh E4 is way superior than the E4 of the other regions like Kalos, you can't really claim in any way that what Cynthia did was way more impressive than what Diantha did, a.k.a. easily defeating an E4 member.
Surely Flint fared better than Lucian whose Bronzong just got destroyed, but not sure if we can call Flint's Infernape quite close to Cynthia's Garchomp's level, because if you look at the fight, it was a well-fought one, but Garchomp clearly won decisively (it was standing outright straight when Infernape falls and faints after the clash).
And how Cynthia wipes the floor with Diantha, bother to explain? Both are Champions of a specific region, their title holds the same prestige. Unless you can somehow prove that Cynthia explicitly did anything which proves a lot superior than the other Champions then my point stands. Cynthia destroyed Sinnoh E4 member Lucian's ace Bronzong with her Garchomp, while Diantha destroyed Kalos E4 member Wikstrom's ace Mega Scizor with her Mega Gardevoir.
Even if Cynthia is a bit stronger than Diantha without Mega Evolution, taking Mega Evolution into factor Diantha is the one who clearly would be stronger because she has Mega Evolution. Mega Evolution basically doubles a Pokemon's power based on anime evidences (it was said so about Korrina's Lucario when it Mega Evolved), so Cynthia's non-Mega evolved Garchomp being on equal footing as Diantha's Mega Evolved Gardevoir is quite unlikely.
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ash&charizardfan
Humans are tools
I just want to say sme people need to come out of "DP is superior in everything" shell. It may be the best well written series of anime but to say that it had its own standards is ridiculous especially ever since XY came with mega evolutins, few people consider paul superior to alain even though alain defeated a E ace which is next to impossible. Diantha was shown to be even with steven the champion from hoenn which just shows that all champions are nearly in same league. If that is the case then no way is an E4 of any region is going to beat of any other region.
Ignition
We are so back Zygardebros
There are people like that for every region/series. Not justifying the bias, but it's nothing new