What did you like and dislike about Sun and Moon?

[Doppelgänger]

Getting less screentime after their big moment and being useful in action scenes =/= losing their personalities after evolving.

This is an academic distinction. The writers don't have enough time to show off Pokemon personality traits during most battles. If you look at the two Kalos League battles, Hawlucha got the limelight against both Sawyer and Alain, with his personality working into the outcome. Talonflame, Noivern and Goodra were however unceremoniously and rather quickly executed. In the battle against Paul, Gliscor, Pikachu and Infernape got the most focus, with the three of them having more personality than Staraptor, Buizel and Torterra.

The time constraint is why in the Sinnoh League, there was an episode dedicated to familiarizing the viewers with Ash's old Pokemon and their quirks. There simply wasn't enough time during the battle itself to spend on personality, and if time was devoted, it was to the expense of a battle robot.

Alola hasn't had to deal with the problem because of how slowly paced the battles are. We have the same gradual build-up as in prior regions, but the Pokemon have more free time to show off their personality, and even take time in battle to do it.

 

[Xuxuba]

This is an academic distinction. The writers don't have enough time to show off Pokemon personality traits during most battles.

Lmao, they don't need to reiterate their personality every single battle, unless you have a memory issue where you forget how the characters act outside of them. Even then there was still times where they displayed their personalities on battle after evolving, like when Goodra happily flapped his arms and distracted himself with the rain while battling Luxray.

Alola hasn't had to deal with the problem because of how slowly paced the battles are. We have the same gradual build-up as in prior regions, but the Pokemon have more free time to show off their personality, and even take time in battle to do it.

Oh right, it's truly amazing how they made the battles so slow paced to the point where it doesn't feel like a fight anymore, just a staring contest.

Also, where exactly is the oh so great display of personality that Lycanroc and Torracat had?
Cuz most of the personality from SM Ash's team is carried out by Rowlet and Meltan.

You complain about Goodra, but he actually got a much better treatment than Poipole ever did. Goodra got sent off only after getting a reasonable amount of screen-time, training and development. Meanwhile, they sent Poipole off before he could actually become useful to Ash's team and most of the growth he had was off-screen, Ash barely even trained him so it's hard to even call him his Pokémon.

 

[Doppelgänger]

unless you have a memory issue where you forget how the characters act outside of them.

The Pokemon anime is intended for children, not hyper obsessive fans. Hitting on simple personality beats doesn't take a lot of time, as the Kukui battle is showing.

This doesn't happen for most of Ash's fully evolved Pokemon because they don't have personality to begin with. Unless we're talking about Goodra, who reminded us he evolved from a weak Pokemon by losing every battle in the Kalos League.

 

[Hanto]

Torracat's development is underwhelming, his battle record too. If cat evolves after doing practically nothing, what the hell Pignite won't became Emboar?
Why can't the writers give Torracat and Poipole more battles and trials to shine? Why all the glory left to flying oshawott and lycanhog?
Why Poipole didn't stayed with Ash or even was more active in Ultra Adventures?
Lana's dewpider, Mallow's oranguru, Lillie's sandshrew as the captures to a lesser extent

 

[ash&charizardfan]

Torracat was one pokemon which was seriously screwed, especially after early tragic backstory and potential it had shown, i always found ash's torracat more impressive than both lycannroc and rowlet but for some reason it had least amount of battles as compared to other two, and even then it could have biggest feat by next week if it ties with mighty incineroar that would be the biggest feat for any of ash's alolan pokemon.

 

[Epicocity]

The Pokemon anime is intended for children, not hyper obsessive fans. Hitting on simple personality beats doesn't take a lot of time, as the Kukui battle is showing.

This doesn't happen for most of Ash's fully evolved Pokemon because they don't have personality to begin with. Unless we're talking about Goodra, who reminded us he evolved from a weak Pokemon by losing every battle in the Kalos League.

A show being for children does not mean it needs to explain every little thing. XY understood that. There are plenty of other shows that understand that and can trust children enough to remember the characters they see on the screen. We don't need every moment to tell us about "personality"; then it just comes off as utterly shallow.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

As if by magic, this thread has turned into an XY vs SM fight.

XY got action scenes right and fixed the villain plot from the games.

SM got character development right and breathed back the vibrancy into the show it hadn't had since OS.

 

[DatsRight]

Interaction plays heavily into personalities, the Kalos squad seldom interacted in XY after they fully evolved, usually only able to interact with Ash at best in battle. Only a few exceptions occurred like Hawlucha wanting to avenge Noivern in the league battle against Weavile. Goodra had moments but again, Goodra was quickly ejected after being fully evolved until the league came. Same happened for Naganadel, but he wasn't the only source of colour within the evolved lot in Alola.

Development isn't bad when it doesn't completely erase the charm and quirks of that character, you can have a fine balance, and the problem with Sylveon was just as much that she barely appeared to interact in the first place. This problem is hardly exclusive to XY, a lot of evolved Pokemon became demoted to props after evolving or alternatively gain different personalities altogether, the times they maintained a persona and role like Bayleef being an exception. SM is unusual in that it tries to avoid this and maintain consistent personalities on a regular basis.

Lycanroc is a big playful mutt that is also fussy about his appearance. Torracat is a grouch that is also a hot blooded Incineroar fanboy/rival. These might not be necessarily more depthful than the earlier Pokemon personalities but interactions and screen time (at least some of which is story relevant) helps make them feel more vibrant. Even their rivalries play on their personalities, making their fights feel more character driven. These aren't just character checks for people with low memory, these are things to help be invested in them as characters.

 

[Power Up]

As if by magic, this thread has turned into an XY vs SM fight.

XY got action scenes right and fixed the villain plot from the games.

SM got character development right and breathed back the vibrancy into the show it hadn't had since OS.

Funny that it was someone who was advocating for SM was the one who turned it into an XY vs SM fight.

Nice false dichotomy. I can very well say that XY breathed new life into what was a stagnant show for a while with its strong narrative core. XY had some of the best character development in Serena and did the most with Ash's character in a while. Something I can't say for SM for sure

How can SM have done character development right when characters like Sophocles and Mallow were shafted for the entirety of the series and Lillie's been listless after her arc was over?

These kind of blanket statements are hilarious

 

[ash&charizardfan]

Sm series suffered especially in its second year epecially with the fillers and no character based episodes poipole came and go and it hardly mattered, it was bad on the level of B series and johto tht's just how boring it became, in the third year its like writers suddenly rmembered that they have evolve the pokemon and take care of plot and we saw some of the best episodes of the series after episode 100.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

Funny that it was someone who was advocating for SM was the one who turned it into an XY vs SM fight.

Nice false dichotomy. I can very well say that XY breathed new life into what was a stagnant show for a while with its strong narrative core. XY had some of the best character development in Serena and did the most with Ash's character in a while. Something I can't say for SM for sure

How can SM have done character development right when characters like Sophocles and Mallow were shafted for the entirety of the series and Lillie's been listless after her arc was over?

These kind of blanket statements are hilarious

XY is like watching a teenager's fanfic idea of Ash. Sure, it's cool at first. But watching it a second time you notice that it's nothing more than a generic shonen with Pokemon pasted into it at random.

 

[game3524]

The thing I enjoyed the most about SM was Ash's relationship with his Pokemon. IMO, it is the first team he has had since Kanto/Orange in which they really felt like a family unit. The thing I disliked the most was probably the cast size. Having a large cast at first was fun and a nice change from what we had from OS-XY. But I felt it got a bit too congested and I am glad they seem to be going with two protagonist (likely with a strong cast of reaccuring characters).

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Like:
Lana. Probably the only girl who knows her comedy and is entertaining.

Dislike:
There's a reason why I only listed Lana, since I knew it would be the fastest way to imply I dislike almost everything else. While there are a few decent things, seeing the big picture of what happened with them afterwards was what destroyed it for me. Execution was a second thought, is what I'm saying.

Honorable mention: Ash's face. I want to punch him. Twice. Multiplied by 100.

In regards to the English dub only, Lillie's atrocious English voice. It should be illegal to listen to that god awful sweet voice. Makes me want to listen to English Bonnie sing.

Hate:

Spoiler: This abomination

 

[DatsRight]

Torracat's development is underwhelming, his battle record too. If cat evolves after doing practically nothing, what the hell Pignite won't became Emboar?
Why can't the writers give Torracat and Poipole more battles and trials to shine? Why all the glory left to flying oshawott and lycanhog?
Why Poipole didn't stayed with Ash or even was more active in Ultra Adventures?
Lana's dewpider, Mallow's oranguru, Lillie's sandshrew as the captures to a lesser extent

Poipole definitely should have at least done more in its Ultra Adventures run to make clear Ash earned a freaking Naganadel.

As for the others, I guess maybe they wanted to compress teams since they were regularly all out at once this series, granted not all the time. Dewpider I admit felt like a ridiculous waste of potential, its whole gimmick is bubbles. Oranguru I didn't mind being this Pokemon civilian, though Fomantis (a really underused Gen 7 Pokemon in SM) likely would have been ideal for Mallow, a perfect slicer Pokemon for her kitchen.

At the very least they should have used Sandy and Shaymin more when they finally arrived. Sandy can learn Bouncy Bubble or evolve into a water type, while Shaymin is a healer Pokemon, perfect for a protective Team Mom. How did these guys go to waste?

 

[Power Up]

XY is like watching a teenager's fanfic idea of Ash. Sure, it's cool at first. But watching it a second time you notice that it's nothing more than a generic shonen with Pokemon pasted into it at random.

Quick question, have you watched XY a second time?

I've watched XY twice, once sub and once dub, and I have no clue what you're talking about. That was around 2-3 years ago, and I'm actually planning on watching it again a third time. I'm pretty sure it holds up even better than before, considering I rewatch scenes from it quite often to bleach myself from the absolute mediocrity SM puts out on a weekly basis.

SM is like watching any generic comedy show for kids, only the comedy isn't funny, the slapstick is hilariously bad, most of the characters all suck, and worst of all, when it attempts to write a plot, it crashes and burns not in a spectacular fashion, but in a really wimpy way that suits the series. Like a balloon losing air

 

[Soniman]

XY is like watching a teenager's fanfic idea of Ash. Sure, it's cool at first. But watching it a second time you notice that it's nothing more than a generic shonen with Pokemon pasted into it at random.

Me no like serious plot or theme make joke instead I want laugh. Pokemon being serious is scary

Pokemon has been a serious action series before guys. That's literally what the Adventures Manga, which iirc is a very beloved manga. This idea only one tone fits the series is ridiculous

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Quick question, have you watched XY a second time?

I've watched XY twice, once sub and once dub, and I have no clue what you're talking about. That was 3 years ago, and I'm actually planning on watching it again a third time. I'm pretty sure it holds up even better than before, considering I rewatch scenes from it quite often to bleach myself from the absolute mediocrity SM puts out on a weekly basis.

SM is like watching any generic comedy show for kids, only the comedy isn't funny, the slapstick is hilariously bad, most of the characters all suck, and worst of all, when it attempts to write a plot, it crashes and burns not in a spectacular fashion, but in a really wimpy way that suits the series.

Mist meant XY basically glorified Ash to high heaven. He had a love interest, fans, almost wrecked a Champion's ace, was lucky to have one Froakie of a million with a special power to achieve a form of legend (because the writers didn't want to give him a Mega Evolution to rely on old Gens), another girl teasing her love interest to get him...

He has NOTHING like this in SM.

 

[DatsRight]

The thing is that Pokemon as a premise is too ridiculous and rarely tightly written enough to take fully seriously, it generally thrives better when it plays itself at least a little tongue in cheek. SM frequently lampshaded and made fun of the absurdity of the plot, the characters and actions, while previous more serious series, despite having similar occurrences of plot holes and idiot balls, tried to ignore it and play it all like a tightly written epic. Only the OS contested SM for the same meta charm.

Mist meant XY basically glorified Ash to high heaven. He had a love interest, fans, almost wrecked a Champion's ace, was lucky to have one Froakie of a million with a special power to achieve a form of legend (because the writers didn't want to give him a Mega Evolution to rely on old Gens), another girl teasing her love interest to get him...

He has NOTHING like this in SM.

Well, to be honest I'd say he got quite heavily endowed trainer wise in SM, just SM doesn't play on the hype nearly as much. Having a Z Ring, a mythical and Ultra Beast and winning the league are pretty big accomplishments, but the narrative plays them rather fleetingly. It's not the draw appeal as much as the characters themselves.

 

[Power Up]

Mist meant XY basically glorified Ash to high heaven. He had a love interest, fans, almost wrecked a Champion's ace, was lucky to have one Froakie of a million with a special power to achieve a form of legend (because the writers didn't want to give him a Mega Evolution to rely on old Gens), another girl teasing her love interest to get him...

He has NOTHING like this in SM.

I don't care what the user thinks, I care about what actually happened in the show. It's the same old generic critism

" Generic shonen "

- What does this mean? Many shows are shonen, Death Note is shonen, Fullmetal Alchemist is shonen. Plenty of amazing shows are shonen. What makes shonen intrinsically bad?

" Fanfiction "

- And I don't even know what to make of this line of criticism. Is it fanfiction when it's good writing?

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I don't care what the user thinks, I care about what actually happened in the show. It's the same old generic critism

" Generic shonen "

- What does this mean? Many shows are shonen, Death Note is shonen, Fullmetal Alchemist is shonen. Plenty of amazing shows are shonen. What makes shonen intrinsically bad?

" Fanfiction "

- And I don't even know what to make of this line of criticism. Is it fanfiction when it's good writing?

Those shonen samples actually have substance, though.

XY replicated it, but it had several faults. For example, Ash was lucky he had 5 badges when Sawyer first met him to think of Ash as his idol. Had Sawyer met Ash at the beginning, I bet for sure Sawyer wouldn't think so highly of him (unless the writers would exploit Ash's insane jump down Lumiose Tower to save Pikachu as something commendable to make Sawyer fall for Ash). Ash was also lucky when he first met Alain...while Ash was showing off a mysterious legendary form for Greninja. Alain would have brushed the guy off had they met at the beginning because Ash lacked a Mega Evolution.

Serena's crush on him was hilariously underdeveloped when compared to previous girls. Other girls had more moments with him than she did with him. I think back on that "date" episode when Ash...immediately ditched her after the first minute to go look for a present.

I could go on, but no versions of Ash rarely have more positives than negatives.