What do you look for in a Sonic game?

[CAH]

Again, all of these dicussions about whether "X" Sonic game is good or not are subjective, but since you have taken the time out to write out your view on Sonic Adventure 2, i will return the favour.

-Camera was broken worse than Sonic Adventures; positioning it in one spot and then leaping will cause it to swing around.

I never really found this to be much of an issue during the entire playthrough of the game, and barely even noticed it. I don't think this alone is enough to make Sonic Adventure 2 a bad game

-Forced gameplay; SA let you play as one character until you beat their side. In SA2, you're forced to switch between characters. God help you when it comes to Knuckles/Rouge.

This worked better for Sonic Adventure 2 in my opinion because the characters were all linked more closely together, and had you had six different storylines to follow through (one for each character) it would get terribly repetitive. It also mixed up the gameplay rather than having the same type of level again and again until the end.

Furthermore the characters were much better in Sonic Adventure 2. The quaility of Sonic and Shadow levels were far better than that of Sonic and Tails' levels in Sonic Adventure and characters like Big the Cat were absolutely awful.

-Treasure Hunting; in SA, you could find any shard at any point. In SA2, you *have* to find them in the order the radar presents them or it won't react even if you're next to it. As you get deeper into the game, the stages get ridiculously large and the hints completely become worthless, sometimes even tricking you with false information. Not very helpful when dealing with that god damn space level. Oh and did I mention you need A ranks with these as well in order to unlock Green Hill Zone?

In Sonic Adventure the level designs and even the control of Knuckles were much more akward.

In Sonic Adventure 2 the new radar made things more challenging, and even then it's not like the difficultly level was that bad. It was a simple matter of travelling around the level and revisiting likely locations. Also, getting rank A in those levels were pretty easy once you got to know the level well enough and I didn't even use the hint system during the game (seeing as it reduces your rank and it's not all that hard to find shards anyway). This is a further reason why this matter is subjective, because different people willl find different stages more or less difficult than someone else.

-Music; compare SA's soundtrack to SA2's. There's a very large difference, where SA's has more of a genuine classic Sonic soundtrack (with some songs even being reworkings of 3D Blast music) while SA2 is mostly just genres thrown onto the characters (Sonic and Shadow = rock, Knuckles = rap, Tails and Eggman = techno/synthesizer, Rouge = pop).

Taste in music is HUGELY subjective, but even so Sonic Adventure 2 had better and more memorable music in my opinion, what with "Follow Me", "Live and Learn" and even stages like "Metal Harbour", "Eternal Engine" etc.
In Sonic Adventure the them songs for Sonic and Tails sounded a lot worse and eggman didn't even have a proper theme. ALSO, music like Big the cat's theme was terrible. The music of Sonic Adventure 2 sounded far better

-Linearity; save for the treasure hunting stages, everything is incredibly linear unless you're taking part in different missions. There are little to no branching paths/shortcuts to take to explore levels. Several stages in SA had different routes one could take to either see different parts of the stage or reach the goal quicker. SA2 does not have this.

There were shorcuts and different branches if you knew where to look, such as the choice in metal harbour of where to board the rocket (you can do it the easy way or the hard way), or the secret route in Radical Highway. In fact there was lots to explore, especially when you didn't have all the power ups. Sonic Adventure 2 also had better quality and designed levels in general, such as City Escape or Green. They were fast paced, action focused and much more entertaining.

-Story; this is where the series decided to attempt making its stories a little more "serious." With SA, it's believable for Eggman to want to conquer the planet by awakening a monster that gets stronger with the power of the Chaos Emerald. Whereas SA2's goes for drama to extreme lengths, including a scientist going made and planning to destroy everything as revenge for his granddaughter being killed. Worst thing Eggman's ever done prior to the Adventure series was try turning the Little Planet into his robotic utopia by affecting its past, and later causing a floating island to crash into the ocean. The Sonic series began taking itself more serious than it needed to with SA2.

Talking about being "believable" when the storyline is about a blue hedgehog with can run really fast seems odd. I don't see how conquering the world with a huge monster or conqeuring it with a giant laser cannon are much different in terms of the worst Eggman has done.

Regardless, I do agree that it was more serious, but I think this made it better than the usual generic Sonic plots, and it made it much more entertaining. Eggman was, for once, a more serious villain, in which was a respectable foe, rather than the usual bumbling idiot comedy villain he is.

Sonic Adventure 2 had the best storyline of a Sonic game, and it was much deeper, more dramatic and action packed than the usual lack of a decent storyline. Sonic Colours and Sonic Unleashed are among examples of the terrible storylines that Sonic games have these days.

This is exactly what is wrong with the Sonic franchise today. People ask for more Chao stuff when they were nothing more than a mini-game meant to be used with the Dreamcast's VMU. Rather than focusing on actually improving elements behind a SONIC game, people seem more interested in RAISING CHAO, which has little to nothing to do with Sonic.

Wanna raise critters, kids? Get a Tamagotchi.

That's because people thouroughly enjoyed all the extra features such as Chao. Yes, Sonic Adventure 2 was an awesome game, but having features like Chao on it is just a huge bonus. It gives you something to do during/after the game and adds to longevity. Chao are far more than just a "Tamagotchi" feature and were far more complex. There are even many things about Chao that you can only find online.

By having features such as Chao, Sonic games become broader, give you more to do, and appeal to more people.



Overall everyone will have their own opinion about different Sonic games, and that is why this thread is about what YOU specifically want in a Sonic game. I have taken the time to reply to you anyway seeing as you keep trying to enforce your opinion about Sonic Adventure 2 in many different Sonic threads, and I disagree with you, however due to the subjective nature of topics like this, it's fairly pointless to discuss whether or not a game is better than another or is good/bad.

Everyone has their own view on things and their own reasoning (except those who feed off the opinions of others).

 

[Chris]

I never really found this to be much of an issue during the entire playthrough of the game, and barely even noticed it. I don't think this alone is enough to make Sonic Adventure 2 a bad game

Move camera to the side
Jump
Camera swings around
Distorts perspective, which leads to failed landings

This worked better for Sonic Adventure 2 in my opinion because the characters were all linked more closely together, and had you had six different storylines to follow through (one for each character) it would get terribly repetitive. It also mixed up the gameplay rather than having the same type of level again and again until the end.

Mixing up the gameplay is what killed the flow of the game. Take note of Sonic Unleashed. Blast right through a level with a nice sense of speed and platforming during the day...then you get bogged down with horrible platforming that's incredibly slow mixed in with an attempt at beat-em-up. The pacing killed it in SA2 as well.

Furthermore the characters were much better in Sonic Adventure 2. The quaility of Sonic and Shadow levels were far better than that of Sonic and Tails' levels in Sonic Adventure and characters like Big the Cat were absolutely awful.

It's funny that people complain like crazy about Big, yet fail to notice he only has FOUR stages and one boss fight, being the easiest and quickest to clear. Yes, fishing was a silly concept, but it certainly didn't drag on like Knuckles/Rouge's treasure hunting stages or having to slowly move around shooting everything in sight as Tails and Eggman. At least Gamma moved faster and was more of a time attack.

In Sonic Adventure the level designs and even the control of Knuckles were much more akward.

How so?

In Sonic Adventure 2 the new radar made things more challenging, and even then it's not like the difficultly level was that bad. It was a simple matter of travelling around the level and revisiting likely locations.

Good and all, except for the fact when the levels are so incredibly massive, you have to search EVERY SINGLE NOOK AND CRANNY to find anything. Not fun when you have stages that have incredibly high sections, such as Pumpkin Hill and the later space stage that you'll have to play as both Knuckles AND Rouge in each story mode.

Also, getting rank A in those levels were pretty easy once you got to know the level well enough and I didn't even use the hint system during the game (seeing as it reduces your rank and it's not all that hard to find shards anyway). This is a further reason why this matter is subjective, because different people willl find different stages more or less difficult than someone else.

Except for the fact that the GameCube version also upped the necessary points for A ranks on all missions. Nevermind the fact that the emeralds all appear in different locations each time you start the levels up. Knowing the level means nothing when you have to spend countless numbers of minutes just to find something that may be tucked away in the ground high up in the level or inside a wall hidden away in a remote area.

Taste in music is HUGELY subjective, but even so Sonic Adventure 2 had better and more memorable music in my opinion, what with "Follow Me", "Live and Learn" and even stages like "Metal Harbour", "Eternal Engine" etc.
In Sonic Adventure the them songs for Sonic and Tails sounded a lot worse and eggman didn't even have a proper theme. ALSO, music like Big the cat's theme was terrible. The music of Sonic Adventure 2 sounded far better

Windy Valley Part 1
Windy Valley Part 3
Casinopolis (Sonic Pinball)
Casinopolis (NiGHTS Pinball)
Ice Cap Part 3
Twinkle Park Part 1
Twinkle Park Part 2
Speed Highway Part 1
Speed Highway Part 3
Red Mountain Part 1
Lost World Part 1
Egg Carrier
Gamma's Theme
Beta's Theme
Dr. Eggman's "Improper" Theme

Sonic Adventure had the better, more suitable soundtrack.

There were shorcuts and different branches if you knew where to look, such as the choice in metal harbour of where to board the rocket (you can do it the easy way or the hard way), or the secret route in Radical Highway. In fact there was lots to explore, especially when you didn't have all the power ups. Sonic Adventure 2 also had better quality and designed levels in general, such as City Escape or Green. They were fast paced, action focused and much more entertaining.

City Escape is as linear as you can get, especially for the first stage compared to Emerald Coast. Not to mention, several sections of various Sonic levels in SA2 lead to either bottomless pits or blocked you off from going anywhere but straight (CE being a good example).

Talking about being "believable" when the storyline is about a blue hedgehog with can run really fast seems odd. I don't see how conquering the world with a huge monster or conqeuring it with a giant laser cannon are much different in terms of the worst Eggman has done.

As I said, SA2 was where it took itself too seriously considering the circumstances of what the series is. Going as far as bringing in the concept of a human being murdered by gunfire when the worst the series has ever done was having one of Eggman's ships blow up and him flying off into the sky from the explosion.

Regardless, I do agree that it was more serious, but I think this made it better than the usual generic Sonic plots, and it made it much more entertaining. Eggman was, for once, a more serious villain, in which was a respectable foe, rather than the usual bumbling idiot comedy villain he is.

The problem is that this became out of character for him. While Eggman is a genius, his quirk is that he tends to act out a bit like a child when things don't go right. Not only that, but the plot taking itself too seriously ended up leaving us with the abominations that were Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog '06, which both took things even further and were certainly not the least bit enjoyable in terms of a plot.

Sonic Adventure 2 had the best storyline of a Sonic game, and it was much deeper, more dramatic and action packed than the usual lack of a decent storyline.

This is the problem here. With classic franchises like Sonic, Mario and even Mega Man, story is usually the last thing people are really looking forward to in those games. Gameplay is the absolute key thing. Having a dramatic story in a series about a blue hedgehog that can run faster than the speed of sound that foils the plans of an evil genius that plants animals into robots is one of the worst things to do.

Sonic Colours and Sonic Unleashed are among examples of the terrible storylines that Sonic games have these days.

And guess what? They received much more favorable reviews and were praised more so than recent Sonic games that pushed for story.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

How in the world does it hint that? It's a CG trailer.

The way they were using the camera angle. Running up and in the place was 3D, and then the loop-de-loop was in 2D, no?

 

[Slick]

The way they were using the camera angle. Running up and in the place was 3D, and then the loop-de-loop was in 2D, no?

Again, it was a computer generate trailer. Doesn't necessarily represent gameplay what-so-ever.

CAH, I'm assuming you played Sonic Adventure 2 on the Dreamcast, am I correct?

 

[Eternal Darkness]

Again, it was a computer generate trailer. Doesn't necessarily represent gameplay what-so-ever.

That's true. But why waste a perfectly good engine after only 2 games?

 

[Chris]

That's true. But why waste a perfectly good engine after only 2 games?

This is Sonic Team we're talking about here.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

This is Sonic Team we're talking about here.

I don't think even they want to throw away something that probably cost them thousands of dollars to make, just to throw it away after only two games. Don't you think they want to save money?

 

[CAH]

Move camera to the side
Jump
Camera swings around
Distorts perspective, which leads to failed landings

I didn't have many problems with this, I don't think this alone can bring down Sonic Adventure 2.

Mixing up the gameplay is what killed the flow of the game. Take note of Sonic Unleashed. Blast right through a level with a nice sense of speed and platforming during the day...then you get bogged down with horrible platforming that's incredibly slow mixed in with an attempt at beat-em-up. The pacing killed it in SA2 as well.

I think NOT mixing it around would kill the storyline and the progress of the game. Sonic Unleashed had an awful story and the werehog stages were equally awful, hence why it was a failure. I think the mixture was much better than simply having to do all treasure hunting levels in one go, as an example.

Again this is entirely subjective and we can dispute is endlessly.

It's funny that people complain like crazy about Big, yet fail to notice he only has FOUR stages and one boss fight, being the easiest and quickest to clear. Yes, fishing was a silly concept, but it certainly didn't drag on like Knuckles/Rouge's treasure hunting stages or having to slowly move around shooting everything in sight as Tails and Eggman. At least Gamma moved faster and was more of a time attack.

regardless of his few levels, Big had the worst gameplay in a Sonic game, and furthermore catching froggy and fish became tedious extremely quickly. Knuckles and Rouge's levels were much better designed and whilst challenging at times, it's not hard to adapt to them and become good at exploring them to find emerald pieces. Tails and Eggman had bigger and better levels than Gamma, such as Cosmic Wall.

How so?

I feel that the levels were more all over the place and less refined than the ones in Sonic Adventure 2. I also felt the control of Knuckles was improved in Sonic Adventure 2

Good and all, except for the fact when the levels are so incredibly massive, you have to search EVERY SINGLE NOOK AND CRANNY to find anything. Not fun when you have stages that have incredibly high sections, such as Pumpkin Hill and the later space stage that you'll have to play as both Knuckles AND Rouge in each story mode.

The general gist was moving from area to area until you got something on your radar. Only then would there be a need to search thouroughly and even then it was pretty obvious where the shards were once the radar had come on. Pumpkin hill provided rockets to EASILY reach high spaces and gliding around from section to section wasn't hard.

Except for the fact that the GameCube version also upped the necessary points for A ranks on all missions. Nevermind the fact that the emeralds all appear in different locations each time you start the levels up. Knowing the level means nothing when you have to spend countless numbers of minutes just to find something that may be tucked away in the ground high up in the level or inside a wall hidden away in a remote area.

Once you had the hang of the levels and most of the potential locations (of which there weren't THAT many), all you had to do was find the shards quickly and a rank A was pretty much guaranteed.

It seems like you personally had some difficulty on these levels, but I didn't find them that difficult. Again subjectivity.

Windy Valley Part 1
Windy Valley Part 3
Casinopolis (Sonic Pinball)
Casinopolis (NiGHTS Pinball)
Ice Cap Part 3
Twinkle Park Part 1
Twinkle Park Part 2
Speed Highway Part 1
Speed Highway Part 3
Red Mountain Part 1
Lost World Part 1
Egg Carrier
Gamma's Theme
Beta's Theme
Dr. Eggman's "Improper" Theme

Sonic Adventure had the better, more suitable soundtrack.

I disagree, and taste in music is probably the most subjective thing here, making it pratically impossible to argue which is better.

City Escape is as linear as you can get, especially for the first stage compared to Emerald Coast. Not to mention, several sections of various Sonic levels in SA2 lead to either bottomless pits or blocked you off from going anywhere but straight (CE being a good example).

It was still funner than Emerald Coast, with better music and more action and speed. There were several differences in the choices of path you could take, but the level was more about how you performed rather than which route you took. Regardless there were different routes, even if there were few.

As I said, SA2 was where it took itself too seriously considering the circumstances of what the series is. Going as far as bringing in the concept of a human being murdered by gunfire when the worst the series has ever done was having one of Eggman's ships blow up and him flying off into the sky from the explosion.

It was a much better storyline. Kids may enjoy seeing the same old bumbling cartoony villains blasting off again in every game, but those who want a decent and more well thought out storyline will prefer Sonic Adventure 2's storyline over the others.

I don't know about you, but a kiddy and generic storyline doesn't stand out for me.

The problem is that this became out of character for him. While Eggman is a genius, his quirk is that he tends to act out a bit like a child when things don't go right. Not only that, but the plot taking itself too seriously ended up leaving us with the abominations that were Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog '06, which both took things even further and were certainly not the least bit enjoyable in terms of a plot.

This gives eggman more character development than he's ever had. You know the main villain of a series has flopped when you can't even respect him, yet in Sonic Adventure 2 he was a formidible foe. I hate the eggman in Sonic colours, who's so stupid and comical that I can't even take him seriously as a villain.

Furthermore, shadow the hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog 06 are different games which game after Sonic Adventure 2, and therefore can't be used against Sonic Adventure 2. Both have different plots to SA2, and both have flaws for different reasons e.g shadow the hedghog introdung the whole "aliens made shadow" plot, which was quite poor.

This is the problem here. With classic franchises like Sonic, Mario and even Mega Man, story is usually the last thing people are really looking forward to in those games. Gameplay is the absolute key thing. Having a dramatic story in a series about a blue hedgehog that can run faster than the speed of sound that foils the plans of an evil genius that plants animals into robots is one of the worst things to do.

Sonic Adventure 2 proved that Sonic having a good storyline is important, whereas characters like Mario have such high quality gameplay and enjoyability that the depth of the plot is rarely an issue.

Sonic on the other hand has proven that bad plots ruin him, while well thought out dramatic plots make the games far more interesting.

And guess what? They received much more favorable reviews and were praised more so than recent Sonic games that pushed for story.

Sonic Unleashed received some pretty bad criticism due to it's werehog stages. Furthermore reviews are all subjective (just like most of any conversation on this topic in general) and many of Sonic's fans still prefer games like the Sonic Adventure series compared to these recent games.

It seems there are two types of Sonic fan, the retro ones who prefer an all sonic game with retro gameplay, and the other half who prefer a good 3D Sonic game with a good plot, involving more characters


Again, all views on this matter are ENTIRELY subjective, and it's pointless for you to try and convince me that Sonic Advanture 2 isn't the best 3D sonic game, just as it's pointless for me trying to convince you that it is.


Now can you tell me what YOU look for in a Sonic game? Or are you only here to try and challenge what other people look for in a Sonic game?

 

[Chris]

If you're honestly playing Sonic games for the story, you're clearly playing the wrong series and should look elsewhere.

 

[CAH]

If you're honestly playing Sonic games for the story, you're clearly playing the wrong series and should look elsewhere.

I play for the gameplay but enjoy it a lot more when the story is good. Sonic Adventure incorporates both of these factors, hence why I enjoyed it so much.

In reverse, if the story is terrible, I like the game less, and by terrible I dont just mean the same old "sonic must stop eggman from ruling the world", but I mean when they go even further than that and add in things like a Werehog or having to save a race of aliens from an evil themepark in space.

 

[Chris]

In reverse, if the story is terrible, I like the game less, and by terrible I dont just mean the same old "sonic must stop eggman from ruling the world", but I mean when they go even further than that and add in things like a Werehog or having to save a race of aliens from an evil themepark in space.

"Sonic must stop Eggman from ruling the world and stopping a giant space lizard, the result of a scientist gone mad after the murder of his granddaughter, from destroying the world."

 

[Dattebayo]

I play for the gameplay but enjoy it a lot more when the story is good. Sonic Adventure incorporates both of these factors, hence why I enjoyed it so much.

In reverse, if the story is terrible, I like the game less, and by terrible I dont just mean the same old "sonic must stop eggman from ruling the world", but I mean when they go even further than that and add in things like a Werehog or having to save a race of aliens from an evil themepark in space.

Yep, you're pretty much enjoying the game only for the story. Story is not important in most genres, and platform games is one of them.

 

[CAH]

Yep, you're pretty much enjoying the game only for the story. Story is not important in most genres, and platform games is one of them.

You're wrong to assume that story is the ONLY factor in which I enjoy the game for.

Whether storyline is important is subjective, however in 3D Sonic games, I think it is. Sonic Adventure 2 shows how much better a 3D Sonic game can be with a good plot.

 

[Dattebayo]

You're wrong to assume that story is the ONLY factor in which I enjoy the game for.

Whether storyline is important is subjective, however in 3D Sonic games, I think it is. Sonic Adventure 2 shows how much better a 3D Sonic game can be with a good plot.

The Orre Pokemon games say otherwise.

 

[Chris]

Whether storyline is important is subjective, however in 3D Sonic games, I think it is. Sonic Adventure 2 shows how much better a 3D Sonic game can be with a good plot.

Mario's invited to Peach's castle for some cake.
Oh no, she's been kidnapped. Go save her, Mario!

Plot of Mario 64.

Mario's invited to the castle to watch a star festival.
Oh no, Bowser's kidnapped the princess and gone off into space! Go save her, Mario!

Plot of Mario Galaxy

Hey, look at that. Two 3D platformers with weak stories that turned out to be completely fantastic games to enjoy playing. Proof right there that story does NOT help make a series like Mario or Sonic, regardless of it being 2D or 3D.

 

[Dattebayo]

Mario's invited to Peach's castle for some cake.
Oh no, she's been kidnapped. Go save her, Mario!

Plot of Mario 64.

Mario's invited to the castle to watch a star festival.
Oh no, Bowser's kidnapped the princess and gone off into space! Go save her, Mario!

Plot of Mario Galaxy

Hey, look at that. Two 3D platformers with weak stories that turned out to be completely fantastic games to enjoy playing. Proof right there that story does NOT help make a series like Mario or Sonic, regardless of it being 2D or 3D.

Careful, Chris, CAH's going to talk about how Mario's the only franchise that can pull off a good game even with a bad plot, which may possibly contradict his statement.

 

[CAH]

The Orre Pokemon games say otherwise.

Generally when you quote someone your response has something to do with that quote. This comment didn't.

Mario's invited to Peach's castle for some cake.
Oh no, she's been kidnapped. Go save her, Mario!

Plot of Mario 64.

Mario's invited to the castle to watch a star festival.
Oh no, Bowser's kidnapped the princess and gone off into space! Go save her, Mario!

Plot of Mario Galaxy

Hey, look at that. Two 3D platformers with weak stories that turned out to be completely fantastic games to enjoy playing. Proof right there that story does NOT help make a series like Mario or Sonic, regardless of it being 2D or 3D.

Wrong. Mario had outstanding gameplay, but a generic plot. It didn't try hard to make it much different from past Mario games, and made Bowser kidnap Peach again.
Sonic on the other hand TRIES to implment a different story in each game making it even worse e.g. the werehog, the world of wisps being turned into a themepark etc.
These storylines are not JUST generic, they are awful.
Whilst Mario generally has the same plot, it usually doesn't try to change much other than that Peach is kidnapped, whereas Sonic has the most ridiculous of plots such as the whole secret rings and black knight plots.

Sonic Adventure 2 on the other hand succeeded in creating an awesome storyline and a good game, making it much better than Sonic games with absolutely awful storylines, even if the gameplay was alright.

Careful, Chris, CAH's going to talk about how Mario's the only franchise that can pull off a good game even with a bad plot, which may possibly contradict his statement.

If you read above, I explained it.
Furthermore I don't appreciate you mocking tone, especially coming from you of all people Dattebayo. Condition or no Condition, you have come up with THE worst opinions of all time, so much so that people assume you to be a troll. I don't think you have the right to judge anyone's opinion, let alone attempt to mock them when you have a track record like yours.

 

[Eternal Darkness]

Careful, Chris, CAH's going to talk about how Mario's the only franchise that can pull off a good game even with a bad plot, which may possibly contradict his statement.

You were right. He did.

 

[CAH]

You were right. He did.

Clearly you fail to understand my post. Maybe you should read it properly.

 

[Chris]

Wrong. Mario had outstanding gameplay, but a generic plot. It didn't try hard to make it much different from past Mario games, and made Bowser kidnap Peach again.
Sonic on the other hand TRIES to implment a different story in each game making it even worse e.g. the werehog, the world of wisps being turned into a themepark etc.
These storylines are not JUST generic, they are awful.
Whilst Mario generally has the same plot, it usually doesn't try to change much other than that Peach is kidnapped, whereas Sonic has the most ridiculous of plots such as the whole secret rings and black knight plots.

Thank you for proving my point. Mario avoided changing the plot and remains to be a good series. Sonic focuses on plot, the quality takes a nose dive. When it backed off from it so that it no longer took itself seriously, the quality rose up.

Proof enough that Sonic only works best when the story is simplistic, works within its own world and doesn't take itself seriously.