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What do you think about PC culture?

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The constitution was also written by people who said everyone should be free but also owned others as property, so real tight reasoning there. But the ACLU can also be wrong in doing so, as hate crimes are rising partially due to exposure on social media. Treating Nazis and White Supremacists with kid gloves is why things are how they are.

But my point stands, you actually don't care about vulnerable people getting assaulted and killed, and if free speech in that manner is more important to you then fine, but know it makes you a morally bad person.

The Supreme Court also defended slavery for literal decades and makes plenty of decisions that are morally inconsistent in today's world to actually protect people.

It's almost like we should help others based on what's good instead of what a piece of paper written by rapists and slave owners 300 years ago says.

I’m pretty sure I said I wasn’t an advocate for speech that is violent, harassing, and/or anything of that manner.

The Supreme Court also advanced landmark decisions when it came to Roe v Wade, the Civil Rights Act, women’s right to vote, protection of LGBTQ+, etc...

Fortunately, this is an opinion that isn’t held by the will of the people and the courts
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
So you aren't a free speech absolutist, you think that when it comes to Nazis and White Supremacists you think they should be banned from social media sites so they get less attention right?

Also saying good decisions the court has done (Even though half of those are trying to be undone), just means that it's a system that shouldn't be the end all be all of decisions, it's a flawed human system that needs constant updating.
 
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So you aren't a free speech absolutist, you think that when it comes to Nazis and White Supremacists you think they should be banned from social media sites so they get less attention right?

I’m most certainly a free speech absolutist when it comes to the current laws and Supreme Court decisions already in place. However, in terms of social media and what I suggested in my original post? Currently, private companies and forums have the absolute right of firing or banning anyone they wish if they violate the rules they’ve set in place on a case by case basis and I’m fully supportive of that yes.

Of course, this goes directly against what I originally postulated, but knowing when I’m wrong is important as well.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
To deny free speech is to deny the very core of democracy, that everyone's opinion can be heard, whether their opinions are embraced or rejected is irrelevant. Threats are objective, but hate is subjective. No one is trying to ban speech about hating Nazis, after all. And in a hypothetical scenario where they somehow seized power, they'd be able to throw your own words back in your face about hate speech and then proceed to define it as anything that went against their ideals.

"I'll kill you" is a threat and can be acted upon.

"You should die" is an opinion. Yes, a hateful one, but merely an opinion.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
To deny free speech is to deny the very core of democracy, that everyone's opinion can be heard, whether their opinions are embraced or rejected is irrelevant. Threats are objective, but hate is subjective. No one is trying to ban speech about hating Nazis, after all. And in a hypothetical scenario where they somehow seized power, they'd be able to throw your own words back in your face about hate speech and then proceed to define it as anything that went against their ideals.

"I'll kill you" is a threat and can be acted upon.

"You should die" is an opinion. Yes, a hateful one, but merely an opinion.
The "Slippery slope" is an opinion. Nice try.
So if people finagle their word choice it's no longer a problem? Because that can and has been abused to avoid consequences.

And free speech absolutists typically take the humanity out of the recipient of insulting, demeaning and hateful stinky onions, with a "suck it up, buttercup, this is freedom, deal with it" attitude.

The government can't take away your onions from a platform. That's it.

The "free market" and admins on a website CAN however, as they are NOT the government.

No one is telling the government to take your onions away.

But a private organization will often be asked to. Especially on the Internet.

Do want the Internet to become a public space to spread your various onions at the cost of redefining a s**tton of laws for the sake of your onions, or do you want private internet where sites can chop your onions and screw with your data?

And we're already at the government chopping up onions that give the leaders of many places bad gas in multiple countries by declaring them garlic, so even the free speech absolutists are at risk, but they tend to butter these leaders' onions, so they don't care about other's onions being chopped or being declared garlic.

Freedom of speech has to be tempered on a personal level...don't be a dick and force your more rotten onions(ones that involve theoretical or execution of harm) onto another person's plate simply because you can under the law of a government. But many free speech absolutist onion slingers simply don't have a filter, demand non-freedom of speech absolutist onion slingers filter out what should be equally fresh or stinky onions by their own logic, and tend to drown those with different onions in a wave of threats prepared as onions in order to skirt rules and to demean and silence those who want their onions heard if those onions aren't the same.

The free speech absolutist thing works in theory but not in practice, execution, or reality. Think about it.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
So two things
Democracy has always in a sense been corrupt in America especially in the first couple of centuries where it was being built and developed, so I don't understand the sudden need to protect it.
Also freedom of speech is always limited in America; you can yell fire in a theater and cause a riot. The law holds you responsible for anything your "freedom of speech" causes that could lead to illegal activity.
 

Deadeye

H(a)unting...
I often avoid conversations where people demand others to be politically correct or on the contrary they take free speech to the point they dish out provocations or even insults if you don't agree with them. As much as I like deep conversations about serious issues in the world, they end up draining me more than provoking further thoughts... and I don't believe all those conversations online would end up making any difference. I'd rather focus on using social media for something else.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
So two things
Democracy has always in a sense been corrupt in America especially in the first couple of centuries where it was being built and developed, so I don't understand the sudden need to protect it.
Also freedom of speech is always limited in America; you can yell fire in a theater and cause a riot. The law holds you responsible for anything your "freedom of speech" causes that could lead to illegal activity.
All forms of power are corrupt. Democracy spreads the corruption out among the most amount of people and causes the least harm. It does not "suddenly need to be protected". It has always needed protection from its inception, since, at its core, it is the weakest form of government, with power spread out among many individuals with wildly varying ideals.

Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is inciting a panic, and you don't have the right to do that, unless the theater actually is on fire. It is objectively proveable whether or not there was a fire, therefore the law can hold you responsible for saying it and inciting said panic if there should happen not to have been one. A theater is also not public ground, but privately owned, so they have the right to remove you from their property for what you say.

To me, social media should be a privilege, not a right.

With that, I think Twitter and Facebook should take down harmful rhetoric and the like.
They're allowed to, seeing as they're companies and not the government. But if the company themselves agrees with the rhetoric, it's unlikely to go away.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
All forms of power are corrupt. Democracy spreads the corruption out among the most amount of people and causes the least harm. It does not "suddenly need to be protected". It has always needed protection from its inception, since, at its core, it is the weakest form of government, with power spread out among many individuals with wildly varying ideals.

Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is inciting a panic, and you don't have the right to do that, unless the theater actually is on fire. It is objectively proveable whether or not there was a fire, therefore the law can hold you responsible for saying it and inciting said panic if there should happen not to have been one. A theater is also not public ground, but privately owned, so they have the right to remove you from their property for what you say.


They're allowed to, seeing as they're companies and not the government. But if the company themselves agrees with the rhetoric, it's unlikely to go away.
I’m discussing the fact that not everyone even has a voice in democracy. To say to that protecting freedom of speech is protecting democracy is ignoring that not everyone even has the voice to be apart. Maybe the focus should be that everyone has a voice than protecting the very few who do have who want to use their freedom of speech for hate speech.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Freedom of speech has two end goals at its absolute, and one is a very technical definition and another is a moral one.

1. Everyone has an equal voice regardless of things like race, gender, and hate speech and discriminatory speech should be able to be punished in some way

2. Those who will use it to legally discriminate on other groups, most commonly those with power on those who don’t have it.

When courts allow free speech in regards to one, it hurts the other, so we can’t truly have absolute free speech, just one that helps the most people while not rewarding the bad people.
 
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PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
Political correctness is not the problem. It is the handling of political correctness that is the problem.

We do need political correctness to maintain a modicum of decency among the general public. There are certain phrases that obviously shouldn't be taken lightly, such as death threats or harassing remarks, and certain words that are designed to be derogatory, such as racial slurs and connotative swears. Therefore, it is clear a limit is to be placed on what we can and cannot say. However, what matters most is how, when and where that limit is applied.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
I know this is more of a transgender rights topic but I think this applies to how being PC is truly becoming out of control. Always is now removing the female symbol from their products to be more “inclusive” towards people of all genders including men who identify as women and vice versa. I’m sorry but what the heck are you doing?! When is a man seriously going to use a sanitary pad? Transgender women born as males don’t have menstrual cycles no matter what. This is just insane now.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
I know this is more of a transgender rights topic but I think this applies to how being PC is truly becoming out of control. Always is now removing the female symbol from their products to be more “inclusive” towards people of all genders including men who identify as women and vice versa. I’m sorry but what the heck are you doing?! When is a man seriously going to use a sanitary pad? Transgender women born as males don’t have menstrual cycles no matter what. This is just insane now.
Trans men might use pads because some might still have periods.

Also, why is this of concern?
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
I know this is more of a transgender rights topic but I think this applies to how being PC is truly becoming out of control. Always is now removing the female symbol from their products to be more “inclusive” towards people of all genders including men who identify as women and vice versa. I’m sorry but what the heck are you doing?! When is a man seriously going to use a sanitary pad? Transgender women born as males don’t have menstrual cycles no matter what. This is just insane now.
Are you TERFing it up here?

It's madness! Human decency is MADNESS!

Trans women are women. To say otherwise is being a TERF(Trans Exclusive Reactionary Feminist), or just transphobic.

Trans men are men, too, and should be included in discussions about being a man.

I'm surprised at you.
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
I know this is more of a transgender rights topic but I think this applies to how being PC is truly becoming out of control. Always is now removing the female symbol from their products to be more “inclusive” towards people of all genders including men who identify as women and vice versa. I’m sorry but what the heck are you doing?! When is a man seriously going to use a sanitary pad? Transgender women born as males don’t have menstrual cycles no matter what. This is just insane now.
Or maybe it’s because Always just wanted to be more inclusive as @keepitsimple mentioned and has no relation to conforming to political correctness.

I didn’t like saying those last two words by the way can we expunge it off this planet? =(
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
does anyone actually have any argument as to why "political correctness" is supposedly so dangerous anyway? @Captain Jigglypuff you're yet to explain why a product being made more inclusive is something we should be concerned about. i don't exactly see how anything bad could result from that

Because rich comedians getting paid 20 million dollars a special might get mad that one of their jokes wasn’t funny. Remember Jerry Seinfeld gave up because his joke of “young people today use their phones too much, they swipe at it like a gay French King” and when people didn’t laugh it’s because they got offended, not because it just wasn’t a good joke.

he also dated a high schooler when he was 40
 
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