What do you think of the overall battles of Sun & Moon?

[shoz999]

So there's a lot of discussion over the lack of battles but what about the actual battles that Sun & Moon do have. Personally I liked the 1 against 3 battle of Nanu, really shows what kind of person he is through that battle while also maintaining enough action. There was also the short but talked-about battle between Ash's Pikachu and Jessie's victorious Mimikyu. I have to admit, I did not see that coming at all. Everyone give claps for Team Rocket for actually succeeding on something. However my favorite Pokemon battle undoubtedly has to be the battle between Ash's Pikachu and Guzma's Golisopod. His First Impression works just like how it does in the Pokemon Adventures manga but I have to say, I did not see that Pin Missile attack coming. Golisopod is a walking tank defensively but never occurred to me offensively. An interesting and even surprising way to look at Golisopod's biology don't you think?

So far I personally don't mind the smaller quality-over-quantity selection of battles if done right of course. Those three battles I mentioned, far more memorable than much of the past six generations of animation has to offer. Sure you got battles like Paul and Alain but they make up a small fraction of the filler-dominated Pokemon battles and almost no one here talks about the filler-battles after the generation is over. Of course not everything always works for a smaller selection of battles either. Olivia's battle, although good turned stealth rocks into a rock tomb-look alike. That annoyed some people, I especially thought that was somewhat off as it's called "stealth" rocks afterall, not "giant" "pillars". Also how can we forget the Pikachu shocking the wet Mudsdale episode. I'm surprised it has it's defenders. Some of you can defend it all you want but it's total BS to me. If you can explain to me how Roark's Onix or Roxanne's Geodude got electrocuted without water, then perhaps you can convince me about Mudsdale. If you can't? Oh well. Oh and how can I forget about Rowlet using Bloom Doom against Dartrix, a fellow grass-flying type at it's second-stage? It's funny, I actually liked that episode. It is a good episode to me but a good episode with a battle ending in a poor way.

Well I've discussed my thoughts, what's yours?

 

[Sham]

Atrocious. Sun and Moon has some good ideas and nice additions but battles definitely wasn’t this series strong points. Ash’s battle with Hapu is just unforgivable. The only battles I will say were good was Oliva’s, Gladion and Ash’s first battle and Lillie’s cave battle. The rest is trash.

 

[AznKei]

Atrocious. Sun and Moon has some good ideas and nice additions but battles definitely wasn’t this series strong points. Ash’s battle with Hapu is just unforgivable. The only battles I will say were good was Oliva’s, Gladion and Ash’s first battle and Lillie’s cave battle. The rest is trash.

This is not good, especially since they represented a tiny fraction of all the SM battles. It seems that the anime producers/writers are really running out of ideas when it's about having good quality battles after the show went for so long. This could be a bad sign for the next series.

 

[Alola Adventurer]

I think most of them are fine with my only gripe being they're a little too short for my tastes but that's about it.

 

[Doppelgänger]

The battles are bad, and have been especially so since Ultra Adventures. There's multiple in-universe reasons for why.

However, the primary, meta reason is that most of the battles are rigged to move the plot forward.
What this means is that there's a desired outcome - say, Ash loses to Gladion - and the battle is then scripted to lead to this event. This means that Pokemon do things or undergo some kind of obstacle that artificially block a more natural expectation.

Examples:

-Ash dropping Grassium Z, so Rowlet loses to Hau's Dartrix
-Pikachu using Corkscrew Crash against Golisopod, even though it's weak to electric moves and resists steel
-Dusk Lycanroc going berserk so Type-Null sets up and KO's it
-Midnight Lycanroc tanking a Splintered Stormshards
-Pikachu learning Electroweb to block Mimikyu's Let's Snuggle Forever
-Incineroar OHKO'd Mega Aggron with Malicious Moonsault

The Golisopod/Mimikyu battles were good, but the expected outcome (Pikachu crushes Golisopod, Mimikyu beats Pikachu) were thwarted by inexplicable events. Ash could have OHKO'd Golisopod through it's armour with Gigavolt Havoc, and Mimikyu should have KO'd Pikachu with Let's Snuggle Forever.

This isn't simply "plot armour" or "deus ex", because those terms refer to different symptoms of the same cause: the writers want an outcome, and twist events and behaviour to make it happen. This is so blatant in SM it removes all sense of character agency - i.e., the idea that they are real people who have control over the battle - because they don't even have control of their own actions.

Pokemon isn't a stranger to this. The Johto, Unova, and Kalos League losses were all subject to this issue, where the effect determines the cause. However, more attention is drawn to it in SM because there are fewer battles, and what battles are here tend to be all of plot significance. In prior series, there would be more filler trainer battles, wild Pokemon battles so people paid less attention to the WWE-style rigging.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

There's certainly a lot less emphasis on battles as their own thing in SM. They're more a means to and end than the means themselves. As a comparison, Diamond and Pearl is happy to have Ash vs Paul be a three-episode battle because the technical narrative of that fight - that is, the actual moves and decisions both characters make in the fight - goes so well with the overarching narrative of their rivalry. The action itself tells the story. In SM, though, there's yet to be a battle where the action is the narrative. Instead, they tend to be used more as a resolution to major plot points, because that's how problems are solved in the Pokemon universe.

Still, there are gems in the pile. I thought Brock vs Kiawe and Misty vs Ash were excellent battles that had a lot of punch in the short time they had. Both fights show how incredibly far Brock and Misty have come over time (in Brock's case, it's a reminder that he is, in fact, a very good battler), with both characters displaying a confidence and mastery of their respective Pokemon. On an aesthetic level, Brock vs Kiawe does a great job at showing how overwhelming battling a Steelix can be by using smart camera angles to emphasis its size, while every movement it makes feel weighty and destructive. You can feel Kiawe's panic in the fight, even as he tries to push through on pure determination. With Misty vs Ash, they had a lot of fun using Pikachu's speed and agility (they love having him hop around on flying rocks and whatnot). Misty's Hurricane-Rain Dance strategy was really cool, and the sheer absurdity and audacity of Ash's counter is just him all over. Ash practically lives for countering supposedly unbeatable strategies, and the reactions of Brock and Kakui really sell the craziness of it. That moment, for me, was like "Yup, this is who Ash Ketchum is".

In general, fewer fights is a good thing, provided that each fight has more put into it. Unfortunately, many of SM fights feel lacklustre and their sparsity only emphasises that. As pointed out, characters are winning/losing not because of their strategies, but because of story contrivances. I liked Ash vs Nanu, but only because how Nanu battled was so interesting (and so representative of him as a character), not for the action itself. The Grand Trials have been a mixed bag, but for supposedly major fights, they've lacked the level of production of other battles in the series, which is a shame since they're well capable of making them better. Z-Moves have been a tricky addition, since they're inherently meant to be finishing moves. That means there's a predictable outcome to many fights. There's a disappointing lack of mind games being played with them. Characters don't seem to do any prep or think up smart counters in advance. A Z-Move has become a way of ending a fight quickly purely for the sake of getting the battles out of the way and advancing the story.

Even if battles aren't so important this time, they can do better. Hopefully the league will demonstrate this.

 

[Hanto]

They are pretty lackluster. We have got cheap one-shotted battles with Z-Moves (KOing dartrix with x 0,25 effective Bloom Doom, really?), bad animation for some Z-Moves (Corkscrew Crash, Devastating Drake, Supersonic Skystrike are less beautiful than generic Drill Run, Dragon Pulse and Sky Attack), bad choreography (first part of Olivia Grand Trial was sooo anti-dynamic and stall) etc.
XY(Z) was a real highlight of battles :/

 

[Kintaro]

It's probably ironic the Misty/Brock Mega evolution battles were the best battles in SM, especially when both Misty and Brock were generally poor and lackluster at battling all throughout the OS. You could arguably say Misty and Brock had their first good battles in decades.

 

[Zhydra]

Some were decent enough, but if there is one thing I would say SM is kind of lousy on, it most of the battles. They tend to be pretty short and most of them end in a Z move burst to win. (Although you the player probably noticed Z moves are all like this in the games. Where you can just pose and the battle is over.)

 

[FlygontheRavager]

They were very good in the early days of SM, IMO (at least, the major fights). Ash vs. Gumshoos, Ash vs. Hala, Ash vs. Olivia, Kiawe vs. Marowak, Lana vs. Wishiwashi were all awesome. And Kiawe vs, Brock and Ash vs. Misty were godly.

Ever since the Aether arc, however, the fights have been more of a mixed bag. We've had a few really cool standouts, a lot of "meh" fights, and a few that were extremely disappointing.

The most recent battles have been great, though. In both Bewear vs. Pheramosa and Ash vs. Guzma, the animation was smooth and the choreography was exciting. Not only that, but I think they're finally moving away from using Z-moves as cheap finishers. (Reeeeally hope I didn't just jinx that.) I really hope we keep getting this kind of quality from now on, especially during the League.

 

[Ignition]

Pretty much what @FlygontheRavager said. The battles (and, IMHO, the entire show) was more enticing to me up until the Aether Arc. I still like a couple of battles here and there but most don’t leave an impact

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

They could have been better. I prefer them over XY's battles though

 

[Zoruagible]

They're too short
Also too many Pikachu and Lycanroc battles. Not enough best starter, Torracat. Heck poor Poipole didn't even get to battle!

There were some good battles near the start but now they want to talk, talk, talk, talk, and shove the battles into the last 5 minutes -_-

It doesn't really feel like there are any stakes either, Ash just beats the Kahuna in an official battle and moves on with no problem. Would have been nice if he lost against Olivia or Nanu and had to take on another trial in order to face them again

 

[SH65]

I trying to think of whats worst SM battles or BW battles? And right now SM looking worst.

 

[DatsRight]

They're admittedly not highly impressive for the reasons already mentioned above. I think I would have appreciated the lower battle count if they had used that extra breathing time to make each one count, but SM is still largely the same often lethargic mixed bag as other series, and never QUITE reaches the highest points of ones like DP and XY at its tops.

I guess I can stand it better in SM however because it's not nearly as dominant a focus in this series. DP and XY as said did have some higher quality battles but they were still outnumbered by the barrel load of crap padding ones like Team Rocket curbstomps or plot armour revolved ones, and even worse these were nearly always the selected method of flowing out nearly ANY basic story, something that only so many times was even developed enough to give a character proper agency.

Ash has some bland battles in SM for example but not always, many are still plenty developed enough to show he is experienced and badass and at the end of it there's plenty of other things he does per story to fall back on now, compared to previous series where if he wasn't in gym/rival battle that the writers actually bothered with, the height of his role was usually calling "Pikachu, use Thunderbolt!" against Team Rocket. Kiawe's rare battles also tend to be well done and demonstrate him growing out of his one-hit-wonder battle style from the beginning of the series. The others don't tend to get any good battles, nearly always being bad guy curbstomps or "rigged" ones as Doppelgänger explained where you know they're not really the driving force of their victory, however, with the exception of maybe Mallow, they at least aren't forced into them non-stop and are allowed to be put in other plot setups that they CAN drive along in a more satisfying way. Compare to Serena who, besides her half a dozen showcase episodes, was stuck doing the battle formula every episode despite not having the agency in that aspect to make any of them interesting or cathartic.

Battling has sort of gone from a mandatory main plot device that was sometimes awesome but just as often dull and formulaic as hell, to a more optional story approach that while maybe not getting as much attention and polish, isn't prioritised too often to feel at the detriment of the storytelling, if the character doesn't fit battling they're willing to just try doing something else. In that sense SM's battles can be pretty poor, but not as detrimentally poor as in previous series.

 

[Hanto]

I trying to think of whats worst SM battles or BW battles? And right now SM looking worst.

The main problem of BW battles is the overusage of the same stock animation with flashy background over and over again. Battles in BW were not that dynamic like in XY or even BW, but they had some creativity and pretty good choreography overall (Ash VS Brycen with Krorock and stone daggers, Iris VS Georgia in Don Battle, Ash and Cilan VS Twins etc). Skylas gym battle also kinda good with 3Dimensional battle and camera angles.

 

[UltimateNinja]

Okay. Most of them are not too bad, but all of them aren't good ones. And I feel they get worse and worse as the series progressed (the Hapu one was just awful) and now I don't care for them either.

 

[janejane6178]

Sucks

 

[mehmeh1]

Just great, very well done and make full use of the more simple artstyle for more dynamic animation, while they don't get to the heights of XY's best, they still manage to be very fun to watch.................is what I would've said had you made this thread in late 2017, but tbh, after like lycanroc vs type:null, SM's battles went downwards for the most part (with exceptions like ash and MR vs the revengers, ash vs gladion round 3, bewear vs pheromosa, or ash vs guzma), a lot of the battles feel clunky (ash vs nanu grand trial, lunala vs necrozma), or are just too short for their own good (kukui and faba vs gozu, ash vs hapu grand trial), making them feel incredibly underwhelming. The worst would probably be ash vs nanu, I mean, yeah, nanu's battle style was pretty interesting, but the choreography was incredibly lame and they had to make ash go OoC for it to even work

 

[shoz999]

So here's a thought, most of us seem to agree that the early battles were at the very least okay. Afterwards in the middle of the series, the battles falter but... what about recently? Bewear vs Pheromosa. Ash vs. Guzma. And for some like @mehmeh1 here. Ash vs. Gladion round 3. I thought it was okay but nothing special. Felt more like a stepping-stone battle, a training battle but with that being said. A sign that future Pokemon battles might be far better than we think... of course there's the Musdale battle. Kind of felt like the anime crew just gave up on that one or maybe they tried too hard to make sense out of Onix and completely forgotten all the other moments Pikachu shocked ground-types without water.