Okay so it goes without saying that SM is a VERY divisive series. It has broken the formula in many areas and twisted the genre and dynamics around for better or worse. So now I ask you, what should stay and what should go for the next series? Alternatively what of SM could work if properly refined upon in future series?
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What Elements of SM Do You Want Maintained in the Anime?
- Thread starter DatsRight
- Start date
Pokegirl Fan~
Liko>>>>>Ash
Less Cotd/Potd Team Rocket fillers and more fillers similar to the early SM ones like the Baseball filler.
Ash continuing to get hurt to emphasize his recklessness
Team Rocket appearing less frequently
Ash continuing to get hurt to emphasize his recklessness
Team Rocket appearing less frequently
Zhydra
Master of Chaos!
Animation.
Art style
Continuity in between episodes. (Turned a lot of fillers into semi relevant episodes.)
More focus on the characters when Ash isn't doing much.
TR showing up less, having a lot of comedy. (It's the UK... we got British humor!)
Pokemon having more interaction with each other.
Ash's personality. (Goofball that is excited about things... which works if the theme is exploring, that gets serious when it counts! "Guzzlord screaming haunts my mind!")
Use of a hub, it can still work depending on how the large towns work.
Art style
Continuity in between episodes. (Turned a lot of fillers into semi relevant episodes.)
More focus on the characters when Ash isn't doing much.
TR showing up less, having a lot of comedy. (It's the UK... we got British humor!)
Pokemon having more interaction with each other.
Ash's personality. (Goofball that is excited about things... which works if the theme is exploring, that gets serious when it counts! "Guzzlord screaming haunts my mind!")
Use of a hub, it can still work depending on how the large towns work.
Point 1 definitely. Ultra Adventures was essentially a filler season, but saved by this variety. Character driven fillers with more spontaneous plots that don't follow the exact same formula are much welcome.
Point 2 I'd have as a 'refine upon' element, I like Ash taking his slapstick lumps, but I like OTHER characters getting humiliated and just looking like fallible and amusing characters as well. Some episodes of SM try (usually with Kiawe or Lillie) but too many episodes are just Ash doing all the comical/flawed stuff and everyone else shaking their heads in the background. Definitely keep Ash's clownish side though, along with him having more agency in events that aren't just battle centric. It's so much more fun seeing him be effective in ways besides "Pikachu, use Thunderbolt!".
I'm on the middle road with Team Rocket as well. SM has a decent balance, and I like TR actually have more agenda and are TRYING to gain long term ground this time, but it's ruined by their dynamic with the twerps being at it's most blandest this series. If they appear less often, surely that's all the more reason more effort should be put into when the two sides DO face off. Give them a funny chemistry again, since you know, TR are supposed to be funny and often so is Ash, and if TR are being allowed to gain resources and bulk up, it should play into their effectiveness, they should at least get in the odd hit and make the twerps struggle for a win more often. Stuff like the Baseball filler or the Alolan Meowth episode where they actually square off in an entertaining way should not be rarities. A shame because Ash and Team Rocket's dynamic with nearly everyone else in SM's universe but each other tends to be pretty fun.
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UltimateNinja
Praying for the holy relics
- Animation, but for god sake return to the old artstyle...and make Ash have his old OS-DP eyes again.
- Some background characters appearing more frequently.
Yeah that's about it for me. Almost everything could be better in the next series. Not blaming SM for that matter, but these are the things I wouldn't mind. For everything else, I hope for something better.
- Some background characters appearing more frequently.
Yeah that's about it for me. Almost everything could be better in the next series. Not blaming SM for that matter, but these are the things I wouldn't mind. For everything else, I hope for something better.
On one specific note, I like this region has actually paced out how Ash and Team Rocket have to set about their usual role. It's not just doing the same crap in a different backdrop, they have to plot it out differently this series, and usually it's doing things they aren't used to.
There's still the key problem that it leads to the same thing as every other series in the end, but having the method to getting to that point be different at least certainly brings a freshness to this series and makes them feel less like one trick ponies.
There's still the key problem that it leads to the same thing as every other series in the end, but having the method to getting to that point be different at least certainly brings a freshness to this series and makes them feel less like one trick ponies.
Lord Starfish
Fond of owls
Not having every single main character appear in every single episode. I actually feel this is something Sun & Moon hasn't capitalized on enough, as most of the time the entire class is hanging out together anyway, despite the school setup and the vast number of episodes dealing with their out-of-school activities seemingly being perfect for regularly having episodes that just pair up two or three of the cast and have them go on an adventure of their own. I mean, episodes like this are in the show, but I wanted more of them. Though this will be hard to do if Sword & Shield goes back to a more travel-based formula. The only real way I can see to handle it is to just... not give Satoshi traveling companions, and instead just having several other characters on their own journey whom he regularly crosses paths with.
Other things:
-Satoshi being more of a dynamic character who can be badass at times and an utter clown at others
-Team Rocket not being in every episode and getting more plots that don't specifically revolve around Pikachu (though this has been a thing since BW so I'm guessing this one's fairly safe)
-More strongly defined characters and relationships among the Pokémon
-Being hand-drawn. This might seem like a dumb thing to ask for, but with Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution, I feel it is worth mentioning, at least.
-While I don't necessarily expect the artstyle to stay exactly like Sun & Moon, I do want them to keep the focus on simpler, more flexible designs that allow for more creative animation. We're almost certainly getting at least some change to the style because there always is, but I don't want them to straight-up try to recapture the XY look.
Other things:
-Satoshi being more of a dynamic character who can be badass at times and an utter clown at others
-Team Rocket not being in every episode and getting more plots that don't specifically revolve around Pikachu (though this has been a thing since BW so I'm guessing this one's fairly safe)
-More strongly defined characters and relationships among the Pokémon
-Being hand-drawn. This might seem like a dumb thing to ask for, but with Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution, I feel it is worth mentioning, at least.
-While I don't necessarily expect the artstyle to stay exactly like Sun & Moon, I do want them to keep the focus on simpler, more flexible designs that allow for more creative animation. We're almost certainly getting at least some change to the style because there always is, but I don't want them to straight-up try to recapture the XY look.
VoltTacklingPika
Well-Known Member
I want them to keep addressing difficult subject matter. Sun and Moon has done a decent job at exploring the themes of death and loss with the Stoutland mini-arc, the Minior episode and now In Tapu Fini's Mist. Gen 8 doesn't have to explore those themes specifically, but I don't want it to shy away from certain subject matter.
I'd also want Gen 8 to have characters with goals and character arcs that aren't related to competition or being the best at something. There'll be complaints about the development and progression of certain characters, but I loved that Lillie, Mallow and Lana had such different goals compared to your typical Pokemon character. It was so refreshing to have more characters who didn't want to be the best at X or a top Y, and who didn't need to compete with other people to prove themselves. One of the reasons I lost interest in the series was the saturation of characters with that type of goal so I hope Gen 8 keeps up the variety.
To put this another way, I want the show to continue exploring the different relationships between humans and Pokemon, specifically the ones that don't involve battling or competition. Because there's so much more to Pokemon than what they can do in battle.
Apart from that, I want Gen 8 to continue having recurring side characters and not go back to CotDs. Following on from that, I hope we continue getting weird and wonderful filler episodes.
As for Ash, I like the role he had in SM and in The Power of Us. I prefer him when he's propping up other characters without being the star of the show or being glorified. Make him important, but do it a humble way.
100% this. I see people saying "keep the animation but change the art style" but what they don't realise is that the animation is only possible because of the art style, and that you can't have one without the other.
Likewise, I expect there'll be some changes because Pokemon has been doing that since the beginning, but also expect that it'll be tweaks rather than something radical. The big question will be if their focus remains on character acting, or whether it'll return to making battles a spectacle.
I'd also want Gen 8 to have characters with goals and character arcs that aren't related to competition or being the best at something. There'll be complaints about the development and progression of certain characters, but I loved that Lillie, Mallow and Lana had such different goals compared to your typical Pokemon character. It was so refreshing to have more characters who didn't want to be the best at X or a top Y, and who didn't need to compete with other people to prove themselves. One of the reasons I lost interest in the series was the saturation of characters with that type of goal so I hope Gen 8 keeps up the variety.
To put this another way, I want the show to continue exploring the different relationships between humans and Pokemon, specifically the ones that don't involve battling or competition. Because there's so much more to Pokemon than what they can do in battle.
Apart from that, I want Gen 8 to continue having recurring side characters and not go back to CotDs. Following on from that, I hope we continue getting weird and wonderful filler episodes.
As for Ash, I like the role he had in SM and in The Power of Us. I prefer him when he's propping up other characters without being the star of the show or being glorified. Make him important, but do it a humble way.
100% this. I see people saying "keep the animation but change the art style" but what they don't realise is that the animation is only possible because of the art style, and that you can't have one without the other.
Likewise, I expect there'll be some changes because Pokemon has been doing that since the beginning, but also expect that it'll be tweaks rather than something radical. The big question will be if their focus remains on character acting, or whether it'll return to making battles a spectacle.
Lillie I can go with, along with Sophocles, but Mallow I don't think is a great example, with Lana only a cut above that. They struggle to make them stand out besides the usual 'jobber villain' formula, otherwise they lack much agency at all besides "look what a great cook/bubble blower she is". They're arguably the first companions not to have any defining character flaws, which cuts down any opportunity for a character arc or to hold stories just on individual personality. Even Lillie and Sophocles are kinda lacking in limelight at times, even if the core personality is fine enough. I think this is a storytelling approach the writers are still in 'baby steps' mode with, even if it's very welcoming to see them trying at all after relying on formula for so long. Some episodes actually feel like valid attempts at character studies (eg. Lillie's Poni Canyon episode).
Ironically Ash and Kiawe despite having goals, actually probably are the best for standing out as individuals and keeping fillers and spontaneous stories entertaining. It's emphasised by the fact they didn't even know about the league until very late into the show.
They also seem like the two characters the writers least have to 'kiddy glove' and are willing to accept they don't have to look good at everything. They have enough agency to redeem themselves from being a flawed 'loser' at times. There's a better sense of humility in SM from this, something we usually only see with Team Rocket. I feel like previous series (besides early OS in its cynicism) were a bit unwilling to crap on the protagonists too much, because they didn't always have a lot of character agency, maybe they worried not keeping them more on the 'winners' end of things superficially would lead them to look unremarkable, always having a straw loser like Team Rocket suck up all the stench of failure away from them. This still seems true with SM according to how bland or not a protagonist is. Ash doesn't need the plot making him look awesome this series however. Sure there is still some cases of plot armour, but he can go into nearly any story and make himself look like a badass, no matter how much things twist to turn him into a clown.
There is the downside that Ash's actual goal focus is a bit more half assed this series, but it's not downgraded enough to be utterly lacking in substance, especially since that helps with the other storylines, there's still enough to keep him look competent, just there's a greater focus on making him character driven this time.
On a side note, I also like how most of the characters that did get development this series had it tied into a specific motif, namely the 'fish out of water' premise. Characters that have a niche but have been sheltered or so used to being in their element for so long that they are hopeless outside of it and spend much of their time trying to accustom to things out of their comfort zone. It works for a series that has been trying most to break the formula.
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Power Up
...
You do realize you can have amazing animation without resorting to a much simpler art style? You don’t “ need “ to have SM’s art style to have good animation
It’ll simply be harder to do sure, but it won’t suddenly become impossible
345ash-greninja
Auto-Memories Doll
You know, as someone who watches several other anime now-a-days I can say that you're wrong here with this logic. Great animation is harder to do obviously if you have a sharp art style, but not impossible by any means, so this logic of "animation is only possible because of the art style" is definitely fallacious.
Like say, a show like Attack On Titan does have quite a sharp art style, but still manages to have epic animation during the fights with the mighty titans.
VoltTacklingPika
Well-Known Member
How well the characters were handled isn't as relevant here as the simple fact that SM had characters with ambitions that did not relate to a competition in some way. It goes without saying that I want Sword and Shield to handle its characters well, but my interest is seeing characters that want something different than to be the best at something. For me, characters like Lana, who want to use one very specific aspect of her Pokemon for a very specific purpose, and Mallow, who regards her Pokemon as family and a symbol of a relationship she once had, are inherently more interesting that anything else the show does, if only for how they provide a unique angle to the relationship between humans and Pokemon. I'd like more of this diversity, rather than a return to "I want to be the best new thing this region has introduced!" or "I'm going to be the best trainer of this specific Pokemon type!".
No, but you do need it if you want very dynamic character acting consistently throughout the show's run. "Simply be harder to do" is an understatement. Pokemon is on TV every week and has a nonstop production schedule. It has neither the time nor resources to pursue the "harder" alternative.
Context is important here. When people say "keep the great animation from SM", I assume they mean that they want the same style of animation. If that's the case then, well, you can't have SM's animation without SM's character designs. The two are inseparable.
Yeah, Attack on Titan has great animation during its fight scenes, but then, Attack on Titan doesn't air every week like Pokemon does. There were four years between its first and second seasons, and another year between its second and third seasons. Production for each season will have begun months in advance of their release. Moreover, their seasons consist of far fewer episodes than Pokemon, so all that time can be spent on making each episode look as a great as it can possibly be, whereas a show such as Pokemon has to pick and choose which of its episodes get that treatment.
The reality is, you're never going to see a Pokemon show that has consistently detailed character designs and consistently great animation throughout its entire run. The production schedule simply does not allow for that.
I think the key here is still giving them an agency and character to work long term however. In fairness we have had COTD in previous series that have this sort of angle, but they are developed largely to work in that episodic structure. Lillie works for example since while she has a more individual ambitions she still has long term flaws and a dynamic character arc to some degree, a personal goal she has to improve upon that isn't just in the form of a generic competition. Sophocles isn't quite as distinct arc wise, though I do like the focus on him similarly becoming less sheltered and more outgoing through his Charjabug. I like even more that these played into some sort of chemistry with the main character, since Ash works as a sort of catalyst for their starting steps. I think Sophocles' lack of developed arc gimmicks is compensated a little with the episodes that focus on his dynamics with the other boys for example, while Lillie's lack of limelight in Ultra Adventures was similarly made up for a little in fillers like the Ultra Guardian episodes where plays within the main ensemble.
This is definitely something I want to see more of, seeing how a character can play into the entire dynamic through their personality and niches, since even if a character doesn't have a brilliantly woven arc, they can still stand out perfectly for their role within the cast. BW/XY Ash for example felt too self contained a character because he wasn't good with chemistries, if you didn't like his goal focus he was actually a bit bland and didn't benefit much to the rest of the group personality wise, while SM Ash is beneficial to a lot of characters in terms of chemistries, he is a good foil. Kiawe, Lillie and Sophocles all have some similar moments of good interactions and synergy, feeling like they click with the dynamic.
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Power Up
...
I change my mind then even though literally everything you’ve said requires a citation, I want the next region to contain nothing from SM.
What happened in SM can stay in SM.
Dragalge
"Orange" Magical Girl
Don't be that way! Have a muffin!
While the type specialist route hasn't been exactly been well represented in SM (to the surprise of no one who knows the agenda's history), I'd say Kiawe is probably the show's best attempt at such thus far, he has a team consistently representing fire types but all having a dual typing and a versatile moveset, along with Firium Z, which at least gave him some form of agency in the earlier episodes. I like they also played against him being a 'one note wonder' with such and shown him gaining a more versatile battle style and resources while still keeping a consistent element.
Misty could arguably compete, if not for most of her water types being rather bland.
Misty could arguably compete, if not for most of her water types being rather bland.