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What extremely powerful opponents Ash have defeated and what has he gained from it?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by shoz999, Nov 9, 2018.

  1. shoz999

    shoz999 The Legend of Mudkip

    So I made a thread a while back showing a picture of Red and his Pokemon happily leaving the Cerulean Cave victorious after their clash against the Monster of Cerulean City, Mewtwo. I chose this particular image for that particular thread because I thought it did a really good job of representing practically every Pokemon fan who had great memories of playing their first Pokemon game or their first entry of a new generation, defeating an extremely powerful opponent with all there hard work, wits and if you want to get into role-playing, trust into their Pokemon. This moment reminded me of the games so much but then it later occurred to me. Has Ash ever defeated any extremely powerful opponents that can rival that of Mewtwo or Cynthia or Lance? This occurred to me because Ash is the more famous trainer than Red and he's generally regarded by casual Pokemon fans as the trainer that symbolizes all those good memories of the Pokemon games. However at the same time, he's never actually won a Pokemon league which is one of the huge criticisms for Ash.

    In fact, I believe seeing a trainer overcoming an extremely powerful opponent that's on Mewtwo's or Lance's strength is very integral and representative part of the games. It symbolizes just how far they've come, it CEMENTS how far they've come, it cements how much hard work and trust the character has put into their Pokemon, it's a representative feeling of many of our own memories of beating the Pokemon League only to find out there's still powerful challengers closeby, it reminds us of our own Pokemon teams we've had throughout the journey and from that you become the "Pokemon Master" or a powerful enough trainer to convince other people to take different paths. Cynthia was one of those powerful trainers that partly convinced Paul to go to a slightly different path. In Pokemon Adventures, Red convinces Blaine to start over with Mewtwo, that Mewtwo is not that different from any other Pokemon that can be good or bad based on the trainer. Blaine is not only convinced by Mewtwo who is willing to start over but by seeing Red's accomplishments through his Pokemon as seen in the picture below. This is how impactful and how much progression can happen if Ash wins the Pokemon League or overcomes a really OP trainer, he not only influences his Pokemon but he can influence others. The thing is, it's not just limited to Pokemon Adventures or the games. Other forms of media do this to show how much progress has happened. One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter etc.


    With that being said, what extremely powerful opponents Ash have defeated and what has he gained, for example knowledge or experience, from it?

    To start things off, I believe one extremely powerful opponent Ash won against that rivals on the same strength as Diantha and Cynthia is Drake of the Orange League. Ash vs. Drake is one of the best battles of the Pokemon series that featured a large variety of diverse Pokemon and tactics. It really shows not only how much Ash has learned but how much his own Pokemon have progressed. It's through Ash's hardwork and his trust, especially with his Charizard at this point, that he not only wins the fight, it feels like an earned victory. The story then ends with Ash and his Pokemon smiling at the camera together and entered into the Orange Hall of Fame, a short reminder of how far Ash and his Pokemon have come.

    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  2. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple I might have accidentally named Ery's cat

    Basically just Drake and Brandon but I don't think they rival regional champions. Ash's best battle performance was his battle with Diantha in X and Y in that for once he actually didn't get destroyed like he usually does against Champions and Elites 4
    Red and Blue, Genaller and shoz999 like this.
  3. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    definitely brandon, he used his remaining 4 mons of the original 6, took down a legendary and a trainer he lost to once (technically twice) before, and at least IMO that was his first big step towards becoming a pokemon master (too bad achievements-wise he hasn't made another big step, which would be a league conference win)
    shoz999 likes this.
  4. TheWanderingMist

    TheWanderingMist Celestine VI

    Brandon, Drake, Tobias' Darkrai and Latios.

    Drake (OI): A League championship. Sure, it's unofficial to the games, but it counts in the anime.

    Brandon: The right to be a Frontier Brain should he take up Scott's offer

    Tobias' Darkrai and Latios: Darkrai literally swept any and all of its competitors until Ash came along. Latios wasn't even used by Tobias until that point, but presumably would have had a similar record. Given that Darkrai healed itself during its fights and Latios took minimal damage from Sceptile and Swellow, Ash essentially went 2v2 with Legendaries using normal Pokémon and tied. I'd say he gained the respect of the real life fanbase.
  5. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Maybe Volkner, beyond what everybody else has already said. Imo he's the strongest 8th gym leader in the anime.
  6. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "And just what are you staring at?"

    He has beaten strong foes...yet lost all that he has gained in the next 10 seconds.

    So nothing sticks, really.
  7. Genaller

    Genaller Mein Kaiser

    Wulfric would like a word with you. Regardless Ash didn’t beat either of them when they were at full strength since Wolkner didn’t use Raichu and Wulfric didn’t utilize his Avalugg’s Ice Body in the rematch.
  8. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Good point. All his major wins seem to be the last win of the generation.
  9. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    I had a feeling you might step in haha. It's just a feeling I have, I haven't broken it down and analyzed it, or even watched either of those battles in some time, so I'm sure you're right.
  10. Genaller

    Genaller Mein Kaiser

    The biggest uncertain variable here is Volkner’s Raichu. It used to be a rival to Flint’s Infernape though while Flint was busy facing high lvl competition throughout Sinnoh and perhaps even the whole world, Volkner grew bored with his challengers and gradually cared less and less about battling till Ash came along. With this in mind I’d put current Raichu considerably below F-Infernape though at the same time probably still is Volkner’s most trusted (since Ash’s passion with Pikachu during the battle with Flint reminded him of the passion he had with his Raichu) and hence strongest Pokémon putting it over Luxray. Luxray in turn would be stronger than Base Infernape during the Volkner battle (who was significantly weaker than SL Base Infernape due to not yet having Flare Blitz in addition to the month of off-screen training), but was decisively below Blaze Infernape during that battle. Base Infernape at the time likely wasn’t significantly stronger than when it fought Flint’s Infernape where it got casually curbstomped. Then we have Electivire who beat Torterra without much trouble and was even doing well against Pikachu prior to static kicking in. Pikachu in turn was able to land some solid hits on Luxray before going down despite being weakened from the Electivire battle but Luxray ultimately seemed superior. Finally there’s Jolteon who lost lower mid diff to Base Infernape and probably wouldn’t have been included if Volkner went all-out. With all of this in mind I’d sum it up with the following ratings:

    Z-: Flint’s Infernape
    S: Blaze Infernape (vs Volkner), Volkner’s Raichu (high end estimate)
    S-: Volkner’s Raichu (low end estimate)
    A+: Volkner’s Luxray
    A: Base Infernape (vs Volkner), Pikachu (vs Volkner), Volkner’s Electivire
    A-: Base Infernape (vs Flint)
    B-: Volkner’s Jolteon, Ash’s Torterra

    Overall a team of Electivire, Luxray and Raichu would be pretty beast with an aggregate rating of at least A+. I’ll do Wulfric later.
  11. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    They should have made it a 4 on 4.
    mehmeh1 likes this.
  12. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    anyways, I feel like the zeraora trainer will also count here if ash manages to beat him (I mean, zeraora will be pikachu's rival, and his ability and signature move negates 3 out of pikachu's 4 moves, and IDK why, but those conditions feel like something adventures would do)
  13. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    I mean if Ash beats him it would be the first type Pikachu has outright beaten a legendary or mythical, so yeah.
  14. Genaller

    Genaller Mein Kaiser

    What happened to Brandon’s Regice?
  15. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Wow fail I meant just mythical not legendary or mythical lol
  16. shoz999

    shoz999 The Legend of Mudkip

    Just occurred to me that I guess Guzzlord should be included with the list of extremely powerful opponents Ash has defeated. You could include the other Ultra Beasts but the thing is Ash & Co. "beat" the Ultra Beasts by hanging out with them or tricking them, no real Pokemon battles. Guzzlord is probably the first real Pokemon battle Ash has had against an Ultra Beast and "won" and even then he only did it with the help of Dio and Tapu Koko and "defeated" it by pushing it back to where it came from. What do you guys think? Do you think Ash's victory over Guzzlord should be included or not? Even though he's not a legendary, he sure did invoked the presence of one.
  17. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    to be fair, he didn't have the ability to do so, given he didn't send in abomasnow until after avalugg was ko'd
    maybe, but it was more impactful on dia than on ash
  18. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I feel like Guzzlord counts more as a plot armour victory. In fact most of his victories against strong opponents that aren't official battles tend to fall into the same formula. Ash fights but is losing until something interrupts and makes it a cake walk.

    Even legendaries he can beat fair and square but ONLY if they're in a trainer battle, officially owned or not.
  19. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Neutral force of Meh

    tbh, it was more that guzzlord had PA in ep 100 but it got taken out in 101
  20. nickdt

    nickdt Well-Known Member

    So... pretty much like Wulfrics Avalugg.

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