What, in your opinion, is the absolute WORST decision the anime writers have ever made?

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I mean, what the hell was Ash's face even.

It reminded me of Mario tbh

 

[diesglamouris]

I like how people prefer to repeatedly insult SM's art style rather than pull legitimate critics on it, such as how barely anything happened for a good part of it, the feeling that the writers didn't have a clear plan for a lot of it, and the extreme lack of worldbuilding.

The same thing could be said about XY... and you'll also get very defensive people stepping on your heels.

SM has a loooot of flaws, that's true, but certainly XY and SM/JN seem to be aimed to very different audience profiles. I love SM, but I recognize it's cartoonish style. slice-of-life stories and relaxed rhythm don't fit everyone's expectations (and don't have to). I want real special friendships, not one-sided crushes, when someone tries to bait me with a shipping. Despite being very nice to see, I don't care so much about competitive battles or if the camera spins along with the attacks, something XY fans may see as an heresy.

But twisting in such a way the target audience of a very long show meant to be continuous could be very upsetting for the former fans. BW, XY and SM/JN adress different expectations. If anipoke wants to continue being a kodomo and make experiments in that direction, it could be better to start fresh with new characters, not to overexploit someone who won't grow with his followers and their desires.

 

[DayQuil95]

The same thing could be said about XY... and you'll also get very defensive people stepping on your heels.

SM has a loooot of flaws, that's true, but certainly XY and SM/JN seem to be aimed to very different audience profiles. I love SM, but I recognize it's cartoonish style. slice-of-life stories and relaxed rhythm don't fit everyone's expectations (and don't have to). I want real special friendships, not one-sided crushes, when someone tries to bait me with a shipping. Despite being very nice to see, I don't care so much about competitive battles or if the camera spins along with the attacks, something XY fans may see as an heresy.

But twisting in such a way the target audience of a very long show meant to be continuous could be very upsetting for the former fans. BW, XY and SM/JN adress different expectations. If anipoke wants to continue being a kodomo and make experiments in that direction, it could be better to start fresh with new characters, not to overexploit someone who won't grow with his followers and their desires.

That's all true, but don't feel like I'm bad talking SM or anything like that, it's one of my favorite series as well, the point here isn't the quality of the series itself that I'm discussing, but the quality of the arguments used by the people who insist on shitting on the series repeatedly by using the same argument of art style rather than properly reviewing the series, and even though it also applies to XY, it's not exactly the point being made.

But yeah, SM has lots of positives, and is definitely an overall improved version of JN the way I see it, animation is easily the best in the anime to date, being consistently good rather than good in specific battles and moments, and the battle choreography is extremely underrated.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I mean can you even blame SM fans for being defensive when for the majority of its run it got vitroil hatred from a particular set of fans simply because it was different. Sure many criticisms can be had but the vitroil hatred at the start was so unwarranted, its hard to believe in proper good faith arguments when you have people like Jane who criticises like a toddler crying about getting a star shaped cereals rather than moon shaped ones

And even then, proper well reasoned criticisms and discussions around SM that ive seen in this forum come from SM fans or people who majorly liked it anyway, so the notion SM fans wont criticise it is just plain inaccurate. And yes when I say well reasoned, it means people like Jane or Cricket arent even considered, nor are people who just insult it to prop up their own series that they are salty about

 

[GLTSRY]

At the end of the day, it’s actually nice that the anime tries to stay fresh with trying out new ideas. DP, for all of its beloved moments, was the series that suffered the most from exhaustion. Not only because it ran for 4 years, but because it was the 4th series with the same formula, and fans were complaining about that. Ever since DP ended, the anime tried to change things up.

BW was a soft reboot of Ash and the innovate plot ideas regarding Plasma sadly were hindered by the unfortunate real life events. SM was the first true deviation from the games, had a new art style and was more of a slice of life anime. JN was an anime that included all things about Pokémon, not just the newest games, and didn’t shy down from having Ash actually be succesful.

The only outlier to this wave of innovation is XY, who is basically some sort of spiritual successor to the OS-DP era with a more shonen feeling and beautiful battles. I think that’s also part of the reason why XY has/had such a big fan base. It was the series that brought back many older fans who left after DP, not only because of similarities to the “old” Ash, but because this series felt like the next logical step that DP Ash would take, both as a character and as a trainer.

I liked XY, but I’m also the first one to admit that it suffers from serious flaws that are being hidden behind the make-up that is the animation. Ash had no rival for the first 100 episodes because the Kalos trio and Sawyer started out as new trainers, which was a mistake. Additionally, besides the occasional gym battle nothing really happened for 2 years as they didn’t include Team Flare until XYZ. The evil Malamar were a cool idea that was eventually dropped, Serena had no goal for the first 50 episodes and even when she had a goal, performances were just watered down contests while Clemont/Bonnie were nice but ultimately forgettable characters. Goodra was released for no reason at all and replaced by Noivern who had no focus prior to the league, the beginning of XYZ was plagued with fillers, Alain needed to be introduced earlier to make up for the lack of rivals… there’s a lot more you could criticize.

I guess this forum in particular would benefit if people were mature enough to understand you can like something and still criticize it instead of blindly defending it like a toddler.

 

[Sham]

I mean can you even blame SM fans for being defensive when for the majority of its run it got vitroil hatred from a particular set of fans simply because it was different. Sure many criticisms can be had but the vitroil hatred at the start was so unwarranted, its hard to believe in proper good faith arguments when you have people like Jane who criticises like a toddler crying about getting a star shaped cereals rather than moon shaped ones

And even then, proper well reasoned criticisms and discussions around SM that ive seen in this forum come from SM fans or people who majorly liked it anyway, so the notion SM fans wont criticise it is just plain inaccurate. And yes when I say well reasoned, it means people like Jane or Cricket arent even considered, nor are people who just insult it to prop up their own series that they are salty about

And adding on to this, somewhat of the reason why I ignore some of the criticisms coming from certain individuals is because most of it is bait or they genuinely don’t know what’s going on with what they’re even critiquing.

It’s like how people insist that Lillie is a brat because she was rich and “didn’t appreciate Lusamine” while ignoring the effect Lusamine’s effections have done to her. You’re purposely finding the worst interpretation of something

Most of these “arguments” are people forcing whatever narrative suites them at that time and space and will bring out the worse interpretation of something because they’ve already decided on disliking said something. It’s hate/dislike before actual criticism and discourse. And I’m not putting myself on a pedestal like I don’t argue and defend certain things but some people genuinely will find any reason to dislike something they’ve already decided is worth hating on without actually doing research, reading and observing to actually find valid criticism.

 

[DatsRight]

At the end of the day, it’s actually nice that the anime tries to stay fresh with trying out new ideas. DP, for all of its beloved moments, was the series that suffered the most from exhaustion. Not only because it ran for 4 years, but because it was the 4th series with the same formula, and fans were complaining about that. Ever since DP ended, the anime tried to change things up.

BW was a soft reboot of Ash and the innovate plot ideas regarding Plasma sadly were hindered by the unfortunate real life events. SM was the first true deviation from the games, had a new art style and was more of a slice of life anime. JN was an anime that included all things about Pokémon, not just the newest games, and didn’t shy down from having Ash actually be succesful.

The only outlier to this wave of innovation is XY, who is basically some sort of spiritual successor to the OS-DP era with a more shonen feeling and beautiful battles. I think that’s also part of the reason why XY has/had such a big fan base. It was the series that brought back many older fans who left after DP, not only because of similarities to the “old” Ash, but because this series felt like the next logical step that DP Ash would take, both as a character and as a trainer.

I liked XY, but I’m also the first one to admit that it suffers from serious flaws that are being hidden behind the make-up that is the animation. Ash had no rival for the first 100 episodes because the Kalos trio and Sawyer started out as new trainers, which was a mistake. Additionally, besides the occasional gym battle nothing really happened for 2 years as they didn’t include Team Flare until XYZ. The evil Malamar were a cool idea that was eventually dropped, Serena had no goal for the first 50 episodes and even when she had a goal, performances were just watered down contests while Clemont/Bonnie were nice but ultimately forgettable characters. Goodra was released for no reason at all and replaced by Noivern who had no focus prior to the league, the beginning of XYZ was plagued with fillers, Alain needed to be introduced earlier to make up for the lack of rivals… there’s a lot more you could criticize.

I guess this forum in particular would benefit if people were mature enough to understand you can like something and still criticize it instead of blindly defending it like a toddler.

XY also shown the problems of the old formula pre-BW coming back to haunt them without them bothering to make any change ups to it. XY failed to be very character driven, every time a new idea or challenge was suggested, the old formula butted in and went 'nope'. All the old plot beats like Team Rocket at their worst, plot armour boosts and whatnot were almost completely deciding everything the protagonists done and I think that's why so many got frustrated when Ash wasn't even able to win. It was all automated again, without even the formalities DP attempted.

It also had the issue of the more serious shonen elements kinda clashing with the formula's biggest crutch, the actual self aware humour. The premise for the anime is meant to be ridiculous, not that it can't be sincere at times, but it's not meant to be given constant dignity obviously.

I found SM cathartic just for breaking that a lot of the time and letting the protagonists do things spontaneously and on their own, as well as relishing in how silly and whimsical the show normally was, that the show wasn't grandoise in spite of it being utterly void of agency to some formula deciding every effective action the cast could take. With that said however, I will gladly admit, while I enjoyed a lot of it, it was still very slapdash. It was an anything goes experiment as the writers were getting the gist of basic character writing, and really JN should have refined on that tremendously, especially in arc development, but instead it's even more of an amorphous load of experiments that doesn't really do anything groundbreaking enough to justify it's wonky structure. Chloe figuring out what to do with her Eevee feels like something they'd do in the OS simply to introduce the species, not be the bulk of someone's entire character arc.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I liked XY, but I’m also the first one to admit that it suffers from serious flaws that are being hidden behind the make-up that is the animation. Ash had no rival for the first 100 episodes because the Kalos trio and Sawyer started out as new trainers, which was a mistake. Additionally, besides the occasional gym battle nothing really happened for 2 years as they didn’t include Team Flare until XYZ. The evil Malamar were a cool idea that was eventually dropped, Serena had no goal for the first 50 episodes and even when she had a goal, performances were just watered down contests while Clemont/Bonnie were nice but ultimately forgettable characters. Goodra was released for no reason at all and replaced by Noivern who had no focus prior to the league, the beginning of XYZ was plagued with fillers, Alain needed to be introduced earlier to make up for the lack of rivals… there’s a lot more you could criticize.

XY did have flaws but they shouldn’t be seen as evidence to why the formula needed to change. And frankly them having Ash going to school was stupid and they made him act the most idiotic he’s ever been thanks to SMs comedic tone and art style which is the worst decision Pokemon has ever done and ruined the anime for me.

XY failed to be very character driven,

Bro the character development of the main cast was phenomenal and carried the show. The Pokémon, on the other hand (Ash-Greninja)

 

[Almighty Zard]

every saga has had flaws to one degree or another

 

[DatsRight]

Bro the character development of the main cast was phenomenal and carried the show. The Pokémon, on the other hand (Ash-Greninja)

Introspective is a good quality but it doesn't mean the characters have any agency. They couldn't even carry a basic filler in XY without the formula taking over, upon which they were reduced to bland reactors.

Serena is a good example of a character that had decent introspective but couldn't remotely lead a story without the formula, see Team Rocket butting into nearly all her plots whenever they got too exciting, her never being able to finish a battle and the showcases practically being designed around every contrived niche she can do without having to improve or learn in any way. Not to mention prior to the showcases, Serena was famed for sinking into the background because less plots were tailor made for her. Ash was only really an improvement in regards to at least being able to do the battle part. XY was hardly the only instance of this, but I think it was a clear point where, unless something part of the ongoing picture was happening, the formula was becoming a stale crutch.

SM admitedly is kind of a reverse in areas, with less introspective and arc development in favour of the characters actually being able to have some sort of impact on the plot via personality and interactions. Strong if less dynamic personalities. You could have a whole episode based around Ash and Pikachu just doing random crap in SM and it would actually be entertaining, you couldn't really do that beforehand with anyone besides maybe Team Rocket on their better days. I think only Mallow was on the same level as the earlier series protagonists in terms of needing outside forces to compare, though they did at least try to fix even her later on (the lack of such AND much ongoing development does admitedly make her less memorable than the XY lot though).

The preferable outcome would be of course the best of both worlds, but really I think agency is pretty important in a show that insists the characters are developing and making an impact.

 

[Leonhart]

Bro the character development of the main cast was phenomenal and carried the show. The Pokémon, on the other hand (Ash-Greninja)

I wouldn't say "development" per se, but more like chemistry. The XY cast had interesting interactions with each other (well, with the exception of Serena and Citron [Clemont] perhaps since they rarely spoke to each other), but that's not quite the same as development. Citron in particular essentially stopped receiving important character-driven moments after the Miare [Lumiose] Gym arc.

 

[DatsRight]

I wouldn't say "development" per se, but more like chemistry. The XY cast had interesting interactions with each other (well, with the exception of Serena and Citron [Clemont] perhaps since they rarely spoke to each other), but that's not quite the same as development. Citron in particular essentially stopped receiving important character-driven moments after the Miare [Lumiose] Gym arc.

The problem was that while it started promising, about half way in the interaction brainstorms stopped completely. Too much of Ash's chemistry revolved around people idolising him and him giving formal advise. Most of the Pokemon that evolved stopped being characters and those that didn't often just got flanderized into gag characters. Serena and Clemont only clicked the odd time so they just.....gave up doing anything with them after a while. Team Rocket had the same issue I mentioned with many post-OS series ten fold where the protagonists just blanked them and every faceoff was one sided but not even in a comical way anymore. I think it played into the aforementioned agency problems since almost no one had a synergy by the last half.

XY felt like a series that was sure of what it wanted to do after a while, but to the detriment that it almost never deviated and had no idea how to flesh out or experiment with anything else. By the end of it there was a total lack of spontaneity, something the newer series do try to fix, if sometimes to the opposite extreme of not bothering making a solid foundation first.

 

[diesglamouris]

[...] the point here isn't the quality of the series itself that I'm discussing, but the quality of the arguments used by the people who insist on shitting on the series repeatedly by using the same argument of art style rather than properly reviewing the series [...]

Oh, excuse me then. It seemed to me you were giving your critics rather than presenting examples.

Yeah, that's also an issue.

Although I do understand people who turn down SM purely because of the art style, not because of that being a valid argument for dismissing a creative work, but because I would do the same if that creative work contains, let's say, victimhood language. (Everyone of us have our own likes and prejudices.) And even in the rare case I were on the mood for discussing such a work, I know I need to get familiarized with it, in order to give meaningful arguments, and recognise the fact that work isn't meant to an audience like me, but to other people with their likes and expectations.

 

[DayQuil95]

Oh, excuse me then. It seemed to me you were giving your critics rather than presenting examples.

It's all good, those were part of my critics too, but I didn't expand much on them since that wasn't the main point there.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Although I do understand people who turn down SM purely because of the art style, not because of that being a valid argument for dismissing a creative work, but because I would do the same if that creative work contains, let's say, victimhood language. (Everyone of us have our own likes and prejudices.) And even in the rare case I were on the mood for discussing such a work, I know I need to get familiarized with it, in order to give meaningful arguments, and recognise the fact that work isn't meant to an audience like me, but to other people with their likes and expectations.

the major problem with the SM art style was Ash and TR in it, everyone else was fine it was them who stuck out sore thumbs.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

the major problem with the SM art style was Ash and TR in it, everyone else was fine it was them who stuck out sore thumbs.

Lillie was not fine. She was made cuter.

 

[Trillion]

ash's charmeleon evolving after like three damn episodes

 

[ZarudeSandstorm]

There are few and all of them are about Journeys' bad writing.

 

[Krackochu]

I couldn't think of a idea but ecery recap episode in journeys everyone of them because there's probably gonna be more.

Oh also Koharu everything about Koharu.