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What is a 'Mary Sue'??
- Thread starter Rayza16
- Start date
Psychic Umbreon
Banned
I'd like to know, as well.
Digital_Fortitude
Beginning Trainer
A Mary-Sue is something you would never like to come across, particularly if Yami Ryu is reviewing a fic with one in it. XD
A Mary-Sue (And it's male equivalent, Gary-Stu) is a label given to a character which is unrealistically perfect in almost everyway with no flawa. So perfect sugar-sweet personality, perfect beauty, perfect hair, uber strong, everyone likes her, she never gets angry, etc.
Not even a single flaw such as a quick temper or even a shy avoidance personality in sight when you'll dealing with Mary-Sues (or Gary-Stus)
Mary-Sues mean usually bad news as it significies the fact you don't have enough creative brain cells to conjure up a realistically protrayed character.
A Mary-Sue (And it's male equivalent, Gary-Stu) is a label given to a character which is unrealistically perfect in almost everyway with no flawa. So perfect sugar-sweet personality, perfect beauty, perfect hair, uber strong, everyone likes her, she never gets angry, etc.
Not even a single flaw such as a quick temper or even a shy avoidance personality in sight when you'll dealing with Mary-Sues (or Gary-Stus)
Mary-Sues mean usually bad news as it significies the fact you don't have enough creative brain cells to conjure up a realistically protrayed character.
Edit: ^Thats a better explanation, in my opinion XD
A Mary Sue is basically a female character with all the power without the actual development.
Example: A fanfiction starts out with a female character with 6 Pokemon, just starting her first journey, and all the pokemon are fully evolved.
A Mary Sue is basically a female character with all the power without the actual development.
Example: A fanfiction starts out with a female character with 6 Pokemon, just starting her first journey, and all the pokemon are fully evolved.
Raichu-chan
Derp
A Mary Sue is a goddess like character that is perfect in every single way.
Typical symptoms include:
-Extreme beauty and charm that gets all of the main male characters and sometime the females to fall in love with her because she's so perfect.
-Intelligence; she knows everything.
-Has some sort of god-like powers and cannot be defeated.
-Pokemon fic wise, she will almost always have a legendary or all of them.
-She may be super rich or famous
-So goddamn uber she would be able to defeat the Elite Four in every region with just a Caterpie at level 1 because, she's perfect.
-The people who don't fall in love with her want to be her best friend, because she's so damn perfect.
Alright, that's enough from me, I think you get the picture.
Typical symptoms include:
-Extreme beauty and charm that gets all of the main male characters and sometime the females to fall in love with her because she's so perfect.
-Intelligence; she knows everything.
-Has some sort of god-like powers and cannot be defeated.
-Pokemon fic wise, she will almost always have a legendary or all of them.
-She may be super rich or famous
-So goddamn uber she would be able to defeat the Elite Four in every region with just a Caterpie at level 1 because, she's perfect.
-The people who don't fall in love with her want to be her best friend, because she's so damn perfect.
Alright, that's enough from me, I think you get the picture.
EmberGryphon
Meowth Fanatic <3
In fandoms with a set cast of characters, Mary-sues are also the label given to original characters made as the author's interpretation of themselves. For example:
Ember Gryphon is a beautiful, intelligent, friendly girl who meets Ash and friends on the road. I immediately save them from a great evil, but find myself in a mess because both Brock and Ash are immediately in love with me. Who will I choose to be with, or will I choose the dark and mysterious Gary instead? omg read my fic lol
Usually, the character also displays all qualities listed above, but I've had the most problems with (M)(G)ary-sues that are blatant attempts of the author to stick (him)(her)self in a fandom and sleep with May/Kurama/Hinata/Naruto/Harry Potter/whoever.
Ember Gryphon is a beautiful, intelligent, friendly girl who meets Ash and friends on the road. I immediately save them from a great evil, but find myself in a mess because both Brock and Ash are immediately in love with me. Who will I choose to be with, or will I choose the dark and mysterious Gary instead? omg read my fic lol
Usually, the character also displays all qualities listed above, but I've had the most problems with (M)(G)ary-sues that are blatant attempts of the author to stick (him)(her)self in a fandom and sleep with May/Kurama/Hinata/Naruto/Harry Potter/whoever.
...
Is there really need for such a term? Honestly, I don't think any true writer in their right mind would create a perfect character with all of those symptoms. It's just not possible. Wouldn't it make more sense to have certain terms for specific personalities, like rich, tomboyish, depressed, etc.?
Maybe that would lessen many characters in a way, but...
Hmm. Yes, I know I'm just adding on to my "hate factor" by disagreeing with these customs.
*Grabs wooden shield to sluggishly block the One Stars from invading my threads.*
Is there really need for such a term? Honestly, I don't think any true writer in their right mind would create a perfect character with all of those symptoms. It's just not possible. Wouldn't it make more sense to have certain terms for specific personalities, like rich, tomboyish, depressed, etc.?
Maybe that would lessen many characters in a way, but...
Hmm. Yes, I know I'm just adding on to my "hate factor" by disagreeing with these customs.
*Grabs wooden shield to sluggishly block the One Stars from invading my threads.*
Psychic
Really and truly
Oh, trust me: if you havn't seen a Mary-Sue, it's because you havn't read enough fics....
Is there really need for such a term? Honestly, I don't think any true writer in their right mind would create a perfect character with all of those symptoms. It's just not possible. Wouldn't it make more sense to have certain terms for specific personalities, like rich, tomboyish, depressed, etc.?
Maybe that would lessen many characters in a way, but...
Hmm. Yes, I know I'm just adding on to my "hate factor" by disagreeing with these customs.
Believe it or not, they are some very inexperienced writers out there who will create Mary-Sues.
Mary-Sues are usually the product of self-insert characters. That's when a writer makes themself into a character, but tries to make the character more as a kind of person they'd want to be than who they really are. And let's face it- what girl doesn't want to be a beauty, who every boy fauns over, is very intelligent, can win any battle with the weakest of Pokémon and is constantly befriending injured Pokémon and catching Legendaries?
Nobody likes to read about these perfect characters, not only because they're so unrealistic, but because they're unrealistic, and they're the sorts of people who almost strive to be. Every person has a flaw, no matter how much we may deny it, but a Mary-Sue is perfectly rounded and is like some sort of god on earth.
A Gary-Stu is usually the male version of a Mary-Sue, but sometimes he can also be a boy who is the perfect example of the mean old rival the girl protagonist has to constantly overcome- and of course, she always beats him because he usually doesn't care or have any compassion for his Pokémon. He's very arrogant and introverted, while a Mary-Sue is all happy-go-lucky and her main mission in life is to help other and spread joy and happiness throught the land. He's often the son of a famous cannon character, usually a professor, like Professor Ash Ketchum or Professor Gary/Samuel Oak, or a Gym Leader too, so he'll have an advantage over Mary becuase he has some cool new gadget, or his dad taught him a lot about Pokémon battling.
And depressed female characters who are still often pretty, smart and strong, are called Angst-Sues. She usually has Dark Type Pokémon, she hates herself, she may have commited horrible crimes, but she often gets over it by making a friend who helps her see the light. The Angst-Sue is usually pretty corny and badly-written, and she has some weird complex going on where she has the urge to kill/rape or do other not-so-nice things. She'll often be compelled to join Team Whatever, and she'll rise quickly through the ranks, gaining fear, power and admiration. :/
So really, these chaarcters are extremely unlikeable and hated by almost everyone, except their creator and the writer's fans who are too n00bish to understand what a Mary-Sue is. >>
~Psychic
...
Is there really need for such a term? Honestly, I don't think any true writer in their right mind would create a perfect character with all of those symptoms. It's just not possible. Wouldn't it make more sense to have certain terms for specific personalities, like rich, tomboyish, depressed, etc.?
Maybe that would lessen many characters in a way, but...
Hmm. Yes, I know I'm just adding on to my "hate factor" by disagreeing with these customs.
I've read countless fics with mary-sues and Gary-stus. Not so many here but fanfiction.net is swarming with them.
Its basically a character who is beyond perfect, often able to do things even Hulk Hogan on steroids couldn't do. A couple I have seen even have eyes that can change colour depending on mood. Some self-inserts (supposed to be based on the author) Become Mary-Sues due to a high level of the authors vanity. Mary-Sues will often have a dark past due to rape or somesuch thing. They will also catch legendaries on their first day most of the time. They commonly get the hero to fall madly in love with them no matter how attracted to another character they are. E.G Cloud Strife falls for the Mary-Sue instead of Tifa/Aeris as the canon would state.
Edit: It is possible to create a character who is really talented etc. just make sure they have flaws. e.g the champion is almost impossible to beat but he has a huge phobia of water and small spaces.
Last edited:
Taken from Higher: A Pokemon Fanfiction Guide
Have a look at that gauge up there. Mary-Sue is at one end of the spectrum in red while Other-Characters are in green. Right in the middle is the Self-Insert.
It is easiest to start with Self-Inserts by way of explanation.
Right in the middle where it is pure yellow is basically plopping yourself in the middle of a set of circumstances (mostly your plot) and deciding how you would react to them. Sometimes these fictions are referred to as Anywhere But Here fanfictions.
That unadultered yellow represents you, nothing more and nothing less. There are no extra talents you wish you had, no prettier, no events that haven’t happened to you. She has all your own flaws that make you hard to get along with, all your little quirks and habits and likes and dislikes.
It is a realistic version of yourself, and is a good place to start as any if you’re writing fanfiction. Nice, neutral ground... to an extent.
Sometimes however you get sidetracked. Just a little bit at first, things like ‘my character doesn’t get pimples.’ That doesn’t do a lot of harm because neither do any of the other canon characters it seems. That yellow is now a smidgeon more orange, but you can barely tell.
But it opens the door. You look at Story!Josie and you think, well I can play the flute. I’m alright at it, but what if Story!Josie was better at it than myself. Now that yellow is a little bit more of a golden yellow, then it is fluorescent. You know what you’re talking about when you play the flute, you know the keys and the breathing exercises to make it realistic.
You find yourself tempted again. I've always wanted a good singing voice.
And again. Maybe my hair was longer, and shinier, and didn’t get knots, and my eyes were sparkly, and was a tad thinner, and taller. What if it was purple?
And again. And a boyfriend, someone who will love me and look after me.
And again. Who happens to be that drop dead gorgeous, but antisocial canon guy…
…And I had cool clothes…….And I was a member of a band….. That sang Evanescence…My friends never do anything to hurt my feelings….and there’s a nasty mean girl to vent my feelings on who always deserves it…and I always have awesome comebacks…I could stand up to adults…and people would respect me.
At this point, she is no longer a Self-Insert but in the orange-yellow spectrum of Mary-Sue. Story!Josie is a Mary-Sue, but there does seem to be some reality still clinging to her like bits of lint. You can still redeem yourself by adding flaws which turn her back towards the fluorescent yellow.
Talking about reality in a fandom about little monsters in balls seems to be stretching the definition, but in the words of Terry Pratchett ‘all things are real, for a given value of real’. What it dumbs down to is playing within the boundaries set by the fandom.
For example, having a starter Pokemon given to you by a Professor is normal. Getting a Pokemon that isn’t a starter is uncommon. Getting a rare Pokemon that’s unusually powerful is stepping over the line. Having a legendary you found on the path is throwing up on it.
Stepping over the boundaries means Story!Josie is no longer a yellowish-orange, but a reddish-orange or more likely, hellish red. She is a Mary-Sue. She is an idol you want to step into and wish you could be, perfect.
Self-Inserts are better because they have at least some kind structure, if you’re realistic, with as many flaws as virtues. She is what you want to be, without any of the hard work needed to get there.
Mary-Sue is not bad or evil in the same way the foundation of a house isn’t bad or evil. It has enormous potential to be anything from a mansion, to a chapel to a garden shed, but as it is now, it is still a slab of cement, flat and uninteresting. No matter how many things you add to it, unless it’s structured it is still a chunk of rock with things stuck in it randomly.
What she is the first step in a fanfiction writer’s career. She’s nothing to be ashamed of as we all have one lurking in a closet somewhere. If we’re lucky we’ll only have one, but a lot of us have three or four before we realised she wasn’t so much a character as an idol of what we wish, in some alternate universe, we could be.
That’s the hardest part about Mary-Sue, identifying her, nailing her down in one concise definition.
What makes a Mary-Sue varies not only from fandom to fandom, but from individual to individual. And it isn’t always just one thing that makes a Mary-Sue, it could be a collection of little things, or one small thing in certain circumstances. It could be one whopping big implausibility in a fandom about creatures which can turn into puddles and shoot electricity.
It is based on the author’s writing ability.
Who identifies her? Your peers in writing because it’s impossible to grade your character without bias.
When you look at your character you don’t just see what she is, but what she will be, what she’s hiding, what she is like on the inside. This means you give yourself a bit of lenience. “She’s not a Mary-Sue because, even though she wins now and the next one, she will lose later.” Or “Well, she may have a lot of powers, but she is crippled emotionally and misreads people.”
For everything, she will inevitably be a ‘but’ and the more ‘buts’ you have the more likely she’s a Mary-Sue. *Rereads that sentence and s******s*
There is a definition of a Mary-Sue.
Now your peers (your readers), they see what she is, what she was, and are also comparing her to all the other characters they have ever read.
A person new to fanfiction won’t know that rebellious fire trainers are a dime a dozen. It’s easy to be the best if you are the first or second or third OT they have ever read.
Now the sulky veteran is harder to please because they want something new and different. If they’ve read twenty OT fictions, and most of the trainers sleep in and receive a pity Pokemon not of the starters who earns badges, or twagic Goths who run away from home because no one understands their unique powahs. By the time they read their twenty-first fanfiction, they don’t want to read about rebellious characters, or late trainers, or goth characters, or elemental powahed trainers.
And if you happen to be that twenty first late trainer writing your first fanfiction and haven’t seen those other twenty late trainers, it’s going to come as a nasty shock to you when the veteran reviews saying its boring and unoriginal.
Now in Pokemon we already know a late trainer. He’s short, clumsy, kind and he saw a legendary on his first day. He’s skilled and quite a few girls in the fandom think he’s kinda cute (Don’t look at me!)
But this isn’t the only scenario. Mary-Sue may not try to fill just one character niche, but many. Fill may not even be the right word to use, but they suffocate the canon character/characters out of their niche altogether by being better at it than them.
To quote the famous essay 150 YEARS OF MARY-SUE by Pat Pflieger, she is more. In this case, more antisocial than Drew, more smug than Gary, a bigger temper than Misty, more girl crazy than Brock, more bumbling then Team Rocket, more powerful than the Elite Four and twice as famous.
Mary-Sue isn’t only the same, but different. Very different. In her story she often stands out and things orbit her like tiny moons (Y-chromosomes in particular). She affects their trajectory, but they don’t affect hers. She demands to be noticed in as many ways as possible so there is an excuse for the plot to revolve around her exclusively.
It could be her powers, more of them and more potent. She needs to make an impression when she gets her Pokemon. She has a unique and often gut-wrenching history of abuse or a special future prophesised in some ancient legend.
It could be her looks. Strange multicoloured/changing eyes as mercurial moods, long silky hair, voluptuous body, even if these kids are only 14/15 years old. Even scars of her twagic past seem tasteful.
It could be talents, masterful artist, singer, dancer, poet, martial-artist, often what the author wishes they were good at. Maybe a canon will get a look at their sketch book or an excuse to cut and paste lyrics of the author’s favourite songs. Exotic things they are experts in despite being fourteen years old.
It may be her twagic past, ranging from killing her family with her powers to having someone hunt her down for her powers. Maybe it’s a reputation, maybe its how oh-so-deeply depressed she is that she is a cutter which she hides oh-so-inconspicuously on her forearms so that someone can convince her of her worth. Gossip and rumours dog her steps.
It may be pretty pets or fantastic toys. Galvanised katanas are such a good gift for a fourteenth birthday party.
At the heart of everything, it will boil down to Sue. It must affect her in some way, or be caused by her in some way. Only very reluctantly does she share the spotlight, and only fleetingly because eventually it must boomerang back to her. Many main characters are reduced to bit-characters popping up for a line or two or doing their small bit towards the cause. The further these characters are reduced, more of the spotlight is concentrated on her.
And if everything revolves around her, it means the canon characters do too. They flock to her, or she bodily inserts herself in her field of those who don’t. Relationships tend to be instant (Instant Lust, Just Add Sue! Instant Loathing, Just Add Death Glare!), and if things are instant, characters are often warped (known as canon-rape or referred to in the form of Makeover!Misty or Cutter!Ash).
The other side of this is that characters, even bit-characters, don’t react as someone normally would. Under the influence of Sue, constant swearing becomes a charming quirk or disrespecting elders is absolutely hilarious. If someone did much more than shake my hand the first time I met them, let alone kissing me or leaning on my chest, I’d yell at them and give them a good, vicious shove down the closest stairs. Sue’s dissolve personal space like acid.
Not only are her relationships instant, but so is her team and her plot revelations.
Everything happens fast, vaulting from important scene to important scene like leap frog without taking time to explain just how they got there or why they are doing something. Average things like washing dishes or setting up a tent don’t matter.
Pokemon evolve at warp speed, even if in the game it’s at level forty, and let’s just forget about the time it takes to travel between cities!
And while her shocking past may be exposed in three or four chapters, there are an awful lot long, heartfelt (but inevitably pointless) conversations or scenes which are only there to showcase her amazing array of talents.
Personally I think those above aren't that prominent in the Pokemon fandom. The main kind Sue you have to fear as a beginner writer in the Pokemon fandom is the Invisi-Sue who is really just a blank sheet of paper.
It can be produced by lack of description, scripty with no telling words even in the dialogue you would associate with a specific character.
It is also produced by a bullet-headed need to get to the end as quickly as possible so they can be a Pokemon Master. Just GetStarter-GetBadge-GetPokemon-EvolvePokemon-GetBadge-FightTeamRocket-GetBadge mentality never diverting from it. It is experience that makes a character.
A lot of what makes a Mary-Sue comes down to plot, the underlying story of the fiction, the goal the characters are trying to reach at the end of the fic. Sometimes Mary-Sue’s primary goal is to latch on to hunky-canon-character of choice. This is the plot, the whole plot, and nothing but the plot (so help your god).
Oh there may be other things in between, evil rival, getting badges or Oh-no-Team-Rocket-is-after-my-Mysterious-Pokemon-Again!, but the focus is on the squarely romance. Sue and Canon will be locked in a sitcom like ‘will-they-won’t they’ conundrum (or maybe just teenage groping).
Romance is fine as a subplot but if it is the main focus of the fanfiction the theme is no longer about teenagers adventuring with Pokemon but teenagers dealing with teenage angst who have Pokemon. It’s The OC (or horrid teenage drama of your choice) with a bit of things exploding.
Last of all is the good old standby ‘Mary-Sue is perfect, she has no flaws.”
Wrong, not even the greenest newbie has a character with no flaws, although it’s darn hard to tell sometimes.
More often she will have the wrong kind of flaws, a talent or a virtue turned inside out to be made to look like a weakness. ‘She cares too much about her friends’ is popular or ‘her flame coloured eyes make everyone think she’s weird so they don’t go near her’ is another one. Then there is the all time failsafe ‘her powers are so strong so that they kill people so she doesn’t let herself get close to people in case she hurts them.’
Another word for a flaw is a fault, and quite often Mary-Sue’s flaws aren’t her fault. If her powers escape when she loses her temper, she can’t control it, or if she was forced to make the decision, it can’t be a flaw. However if she wilfully wants someone hurt who doesn’t deserve it, well of course it’s bad.
Mixing up talent and personality is often a Mary-Sue’s undoing. “She can’t cook” isn’t a flaw. Not being able to cook doesn’t make you a bad person. I’m the girl who made two minute noodles catch fire and I’m still amiable enough.
A flaw is a core part of a character, something people don’t like. A cheat, a liar, a coward. Pompous or two faced. A gossip or self-pitying. Sloppy or a drama queen. These are flaws.
Now looking at those points, you will find yourself ticking one or two of them. That doesn’t automatically mean she is a Sue, but that doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. It means you have to work that much harder to make the readers accept her. Taking the time to add to the plot layer by layer.
<> Mary-Sue requires explanations from the author (Authors Notes).
Well, if Mary-Sue appears synonymous with Authors Notes (especially if they are in the middle of the actual story. If it comes to that, *whacks with rolled up newspaper* Bad! No in-story AN’s! No cookie for you!) don’t use them. Don’t let on any more than can be helped because you want your readers actually reading the story to find out!
If someone asks, PM them an answer if you want, but if one person asks there is a good chance others want to know. Add it to your story subtly but don’t wreck the exciting mysterious bits!
<> Mary-Sue is a repetitive kind of character found in that particular fandom.
Read. Read. Read. And then read some more. The more you read before you actually enter the fandom, the more you know about what has been done before, and what has been done to death. You want your character to be a breath of fresh air! A novelty!
<> Mary-Sue will impose herself on niches already filled by canon characters and excel in it.
The simplest remedy is making your own niche, something that she alone can bring to the table, which compliments the others without outshining them.
<> Mary-Sue strives to be wonderfully or tragically different
A friend of mine once put it perfectly. A hero isn’t someone extraordinary, but an ordinary person in extraordinary circumstances. Ordinary. That is with all the bumps and bruises and flaws that you, and me, and that annoying kid you sat with in grade five who used to pick his nose and smear it under the table, have.
Average characters are that much more than enjoyable because we can empathise with them so much more easily.
<> Mary Sue causes everything to revolve around her. Even bad publicity is good publicity
Simply step aside. Share the spotlight for a while. Let Ethan get the glory. Let the co-character save the day. Let Josie fade into the background a little. Let the bit characters say ‘who cares’ if she’s dating Lance. A mate once gave a fairly reliable tip. If you count up all the words of dialogue, and your character makes up more than a third of everything, you’re walking on thin ice… In fact, what’s that cracking sound?
<> Mary-Sue warps characters and characteristic consequences.
The key to this is pace, making relationships develop gradually whatever your loins may tell you. That way they aren’t Out Of Character, but have merely evolved from different experiences and re-evaluated themselves slowly and surely just as a normal person would. The more time you can put between meeting and the first kiss the more realistic it will be. “90% of young love is ear burning embarrassment.” If they are kids they should act like kids.
Any girl who kisses a bloke the first time she lays eyes on him is a hussy, and should inherit subsequent reputation. Lots of people are put off by casual swearing; people serious about their education think kids who humiliating teachers have an eight year old mentality. Try being like your character for an hour and watch how people react. Find new and interesting ways to make people hate you!
<> Mary-Sue has no sense of pace.
Easy, Step 1, use the imagery tutorial prior. This will stop you from writing ‘chapters’ less than 500 words composed entirely of dialogue. It will move your character smoothly along from scene to scene without jerky leaps.
Step 2, plot out each chapter. It doesn’t even have to be that. It can be a list of chapters describing in one sentence what you want to achieve for each so you can see for yourself how fast you are progressing towards the climax and resolution of your story.
<> Mary-Sue does not divert from collecting badges or evolving Pokemon
Well, that’s very simple! Find other adventures! Avoid town for that much longer. Natural disasters like floods or cave ins. Losing a Pokeball, running into a strange temple in a forest…. The world of adventure boils down to two words, What If? Always, always look for ways to make things go wrong! Throw more obstacles in your trainer’s path!
<> Mary-Sue’s main plot revolves around romantic angst.
Pace is kind of like ‘the speed at which the story moves along the plot’. If there is no plot, there is no smooth progression. Cure? Have a plot. A plot is a problem that must be solved, a conflict and a resolution. If not a long term plot but at least a short-term chapter plot.
Come on, you’re in a world of Pokemon! Surely, there must be something more interesting than locking lips!
<> Mary-Sue’s flaws don’t actually reflect a bad character or personality flaw, and are outweighed by positive traits and talents.
Ø This will be dealt with later in full detail. For now, just remember a flaw is the same as a fault. If it isn’t their fault, it’s not a flaw. Discover new and interesting ways to make people avoid you!
Now that we’ve dealt with Mary-Sues and Self-Inserts, all that is left is Other-Characters. True, the two above are also referred to as OC’s, but and OC will fit effortlessly into the canon. They aren’t influenced by the whims of the author but have to a preset personality that changes only gradually. They aren’t the author, but facets of the author given shape as a whole person.
They feel realistic.
You are a very complex person.
Your personality is a mixture of every thing you have ever experienced, and compared with every other thing you have ever experienced. These things shape how you react to certain stimuli.
I grew up with three boys bigger than myself, mates but boys nether the less. I spent a childhood avoiding sharp corners lest I be dogpiled, and so I react quickly, sometimes dramatically, to sharp noises or someone appearing over my shoulder. I lived through the world’s biggest mouse plague (recorded in Guinness Book of Records), so I have to resist the urge to chase small things running fast. I have spent my entire life in a tiny town in rural Australia which is very quiet. When I had to live on campus at university with 200 other young drunken adults, it came as a nasty stressful shock to deal with and thus I am easily frightened by loud noises and have a greater appreciation of sleep.
The moral of this story? You don’t need a tragic or painful memory to have things affect you in big and little ways. It can be one tiny thing that affects you in a barely perceptible way, but may dictate an important plot choice.
You are a very complex person.
A reader wants to get to know your characters, understand them and expect them to have an uneasy predictability. They can’t possibly have that with a purebred Self-Insert because there is too much of you to know.
Imagine yourself as a highly cut diamond, and every facet will refract (be affected by stimuli) and reflect (react to certain stimuli) light a certain way. From the outside people can only see a few of these facets at a time, one side. The only way to see every side is from the inside. To see every facet from the outside a person would be dazzled and confused by all these refractions and reflections.
As I said, the reader wants predictability, and to do this you must reduce your character, show them one side and pretend it’s the only side. That side will still have a few facets, but they are all shining light in a similar way.
Here we hit another bump. If we reduce them too much they are a one trick pony. It’s like going so far past OC you’re coming back in a roundabout fashion as a Mary-Sue. What you have to do is pick one facet for the light to hit in particular, and see how it reflects of those close to it.
In other words, one or two main character traits with other complimentary traits extrapolated from those main traits.
But this means your character is less realistic.
There, I can’t help you as I take the Terry Pratchett/cartoon school of characterisation. You can’t give a character depth when you don’t have much more than a pancake, so my characters are generally in the greener version of Self-Insert or at the yellow area of Other-Characters.
The pure green of the spectrum is a true Other-Character and defined purely by their ability to write. I’m sorry but it’s true. The good news is the more you persist, the better you'll be... and don't forget to read!
They are realistic and they move you, you feel what they feel even if you’ve never been put in those circumstances. They are beautifully written and leave you with a sense of whoooooah after you’ve read a really tense chapter. These are the ones that leave you in a watery daze for a few minutes, even an hour. Your muscles feel heavy and you blink slow and slightly confused at the reality you’ve just stepped back into. The illusion was so complete. It feels like you are coming up for air.
I have never had one of these characters, although I think I may have had a moment of ‘coming up for air’. Just once and it will be a long time before I have another one. There are people and stories which can churn them out time after time but I will never be one of them.
Every character is a varying degree of Self-Insert. They are a part of you, a small facet of you, and so it’s understandable that when someone criticises them, it feels like they are criticising you. It’s a dull ache that makes you want to quit.
No! Bad! *Turns on hose* You will not quit! Under no circumstances are you to pack up your bag and leave the wonderful world of fanfiction behind even if a hoard of reviewers is screaming Sue. That is quitters talk! And everyone knows quitters never prosper.
Just step back, take a deep (if hitching) breath and have a look at your character, distance yourself from her. She is NOT you. She is a facet of yourself. They can’t see the whole diamond; they can only judge what they see, and if they see a beautiful girl who enthrals Lance with a single kiss, who ignores authority without consequences and doesn’t appear to do much else than earn badges with a marvellous legendary Pokemon, or a girl who gets badges and evolves pokemon... well what do you expect?
Listen to the reviews/flames and the reasons they say your character is a Sue.
Never be afraid to rewrite. The rewrite is the heart of fanfiction, making things better as you learn. If she’s a Sue, think of how you can taper those qualities, rewrite accordingly and resubmit. You can do that you know. Unlike a published book your story is never set in stone!
And it could be anything! Improper punctuation? Go back through your chapters, correct and resubmit! Poor spelling earlier on? Correct and resubmit! Is your twentieth chapter a major improvement on your first chapter? Rewrite and resubmit!
Oh what wonderful words!
MS, SI and OC’s
Mary-Sues, Self-Inserts and Other-Characters
Mary-Sues, Self-Inserts and Other-Characters
Have a look at that gauge up there. Mary-Sue is at one end of the spectrum in red while Other-Characters are in green. Right in the middle is the Self-Insert.
It is easiest to start with Self-Inserts by way of explanation.
Right in the middle where it is pure yellow is basically plopping yourself in the middle of a set of circumstances (mostly your plot) and deciding how you would react to them. Sometimes these fictions are referred to as Anywhere But Here fanfictions.
That unadultered yellow represents you, nothing more and nothing less. There are no extra talents you wish you had, no prettier, no events that haven’t happened to you. She has all your own flaws that make you hard to get along with, all your little quirks and habits and likes and dislikes.
It is a realistic version of yourself, and is a good place to start as any if you’re writing fanfiction. Nice, neutral ground... to an extent.
Sometimes however you get sidetracked. Just a little bit at first, things like ‘my character doesn’t get pimples.’ That doesn’t do a lot of harm because neither do any of the other canon characters it seems. That yellow is now a smidgeon more orange, but you can barely tell.
But it opens the door. You look at Story!Josie and you think, well I can play the flute. I’m alright at it, but what if Story!Josie was better at it than myself. Now that yellow is a little bit more of a golden yellow, then it is fluorescent. You know what you’re talking about when you play the flute, you know the keys and the breathing exercises to make it realistic.
You find yourself tempted again. I've always wanted a good singing voice.
And again. Maybe my hair was longer, and shinier, and didn’t get knots, and my eyes were sparkly, and was a tad thinner, and taller. What if it was purple?
And again. And a boyfriend, someone who will love me and look after me.
And again. Who happens to be that drop dead gorgeous, but antisocial canon guy…
…And I had cool clothes…….And I was a member of a band….. That sang Evanescence…My friends never do anything to hurt my feelings….and there’s a nasty mean girl to vent my feelings on who always deserves it…and I always have awesome comebacks…I could stand up to adults…and people would respect me.
At this point, she is no longer a Self-Insert but in the orange-yellow spectrum of Mary-Sue. Story!Josie is a Mary-Sue, but there does seem to be some reality still clinging to her like bits of lint. You can still redeem yourself by adding flaws which turn her back towards the fluorescent yellow.
Talking about reality in a fandom about little monsters in balls seems to be stretching the definition, but in the words of Terry Pratchett ‘all things are real, for a given value of real’. What it dumbs down to is playing within the boundaries set by the fandom.
For example, having a starter Pokemon given to you by a Professor is normal. Getting a Pokemon that isn’t a starter is uncommon. Getting a rare Pokemon that’s unusually powerful is stepping over the line. Having a legendary you found on the path is throwing up on it.
Stepping over the boundaries means Story!Josie is no longer a yellowish-orange, but a reddish-orange or more likely, hellish red. She is a Mary-Sue. She is an idol you want to step into and wish you could be, perfect.
Self-Inserts are better because they have at least some kind structure, if you’re realistic, with as many flaws as virtues. She is what you want to be, without any of the hard work needed to get there.
Mary-Sue is not bad or evil in the same way the foundation of a house isn’t bad or evil. It has enormous potential to be anything from a mansion, to a chapel to a garden shed, but as it is now, it is still a slab of cement, flat and uninteresting. No matter how many things you add to it, unless it’s structured it is still a chunk of rock with things stuck in it randomly.
What she is the first step in a fanfiction writer’s career. She’s nothing to be ashamed of as we all have one lurking in a closet somewhere. If we’re lucky we’ll only have one, but a lot of us have three or four before we realised she wasn’t so much a character as an idol of what we wish, in some alternate universe, we could be.
That’s the hardest part about Mary-Sue, identifying her, nailing her down in one concise definition.
What makes a Mary-Sue varies not only from fandom to fandom, but from individual to individual. And it isn’t always just one thing that makes a Mary-Sue, it could be a collection of little things, or one small thing in certain circumstances. It could be one whopping big implausibility in a fandom about creatures which can turn into puddles and shoot electricity.
It is based on the author’s writing ability.
Who identifies her? Your peers in writing because it’s impossible to grade your character without bias.
When you look at your character you don’t just see what she is, but what she will be, what she’s hiding, what she is like on the inside. This means you give yourself a bit of lenience. “She’s not a Mary-Sue because, even though she wins now and the next one, she will lose later.” Or “Well, she may have a lot of powers, but she is crippled emotionally and misreads people.”
For everything, she will inevitably be a ‘but’ and the more ‘buts’ you have the more likely she’s a Mary-Sue. *Rereads that sentence and s******s*
There is a definition of a Mary-Sue.
Mary-Sue requires explanations from the author (Authors Notes).
Now your peers (your readers), they see what she is, what she was, and are also comparing her to all the other characters they have ever read.
A person new to fanfiction won’t know that rebellious fire trainers are a dime a dozen. It’s easy to be the best if you are the first or second or third OT they have ever read.
Now the sulky veteran is harder to please because they want something new and different. If they’ve read twenty OT fictions, and most of the trainers sleep in and receive a pity Pokemon not of the starters who earns badges, or twagic Goths who run away from home because no one understands their unique powahs. By the time they read their twenty-first fanfiction, they don’t want to read about rebellious characters, or late trainers, or goth characters, or elemental powahed trainers.
And if you happen to be that twenty first late trainer writing your first fanfiction and haven’t seen those other twenty late trainers, it’s going to come as a nasty shock to you when the veteran reviews saying its boring and unoriginal.
Mary-Sue is a repetitive kind of character found in that particular fandom.
Now in Pokemon we already know a late trainer. He’s short, clumsy, kind and he saw a legendary on his first day. He’s skilled and quite a few girls in the fandom think he’s kinda cute (Don’t look at me!)
But this isn’t the only scenario. Mary-Sue may not try to fill just one character niche, but many. Fill may not even be the right word to use, but they suffocate the canon character/characters out of their niche altogether by being better at it than them.
To quote the famous essay 150 YEARS OF MARY-SUE by Pat Pflieger, she is more. In this case, more antisocial than Drew, more smug than Gary, a bigger temper than Misty, more girl crazy than Brock, more bumbling then Team Rocket, more powerful than the Elite Four and twice as famous.
Mary-Sue will impose herself on niches already filled by canon characters and excel in it.
Mary-Sue isn’t only the same, but different. Very different. In her story she often stands out and things orbit her like tiny moons (Y-chromosomes in particular). She affects their trajectory, but they don’t affect hers. She demands to be noticed in as many ways as possible so there is an excuse for the plot to revolve around her exclusively.
It could be her powers, more of them and more potent. She needs to make an impression when she gets her Pokemon. She has a unique and often gut-wrenching history of abuse or a special future prophesised in some ancient legend.
It could be her looks. Strange multicoloured/changing eyes as mercurial moods, long silky hair, voluptuous body, even if these kids are only 14/15 years old. Even scars of her twagic past seem tasteful.
It could be talents, masterful artist, singer, dancer, poet, martial-artist, often what the author wishes they were good at. Maybe a canon will get a look at their sketch book or an excuse to cut and paste lyrics of the author’s favourite songs. Exotic things they are experts in despite being fourteen years old.
It may be her twagic past, ranging from killing her family with her powers to having someone hunt her down for her powers. Maybe it’s a reputation, maybe its how oh-so-deeply depressed she is that she is a cutter which she hides oh-so-inconspicuously on her forearms so that someone can convince her of her worth. Gossip and rumours dog her steps.
It may be pretty pets or fantastic toys. Galvanised katanas are such a good gift for a fourteenth birthday party.
Mary-Sue strives to be wonderfully or tragically different.
At the heart of everything, it will boil down to Sue. It must affect her in some way, or be caused by her in some way. Only very reluctantly does she share the spotlight, and only fleetingly because eventually it must boomerang back to her. Many main characters are reduced to bit-characters popping up for a line or two or doing their small bit towards the cause. The further these characters are reduced, more of the spotlight is concentrated on her.
Mary Sue causes everything to revolve around her. Even bad publicity is good publicity.
And if everything revolves around her, it means the canon characters do too. They flock to her, or she bodily inserts herself in her field of those who don’t. Relationships tend to be instant (Instant Lust, Just Add Sue! Instant Loathing, Just Add Death Glare!), and if things are instant, characters are often warped (known as canon-rape or referred to in the form of Makeover!Misty or Cutter!Ash).
The other side of this is that characters, even bit-characters, don’t react as someone normally would. Under the influence of Sue, constant swearing becomes a charming quirk or disrespecting elders is absolutely hilarious. If someone did much more than shake my hand the first time I met them, let alone kissing me or leaning on my chest, I’d yell at them and give them a good, vicious shove down the closest stairs. Sue’s dissolve personal space like acid.
Mary-Sue warps characters and characteristic consequences.
Not only are her relationships instant, but so is her team and her plot revelations.
Everything happens fast, vaulting from important scene to important scene like leap frog without taking time to explain just how they got there or why they are doing something. Average things like washing dishes or setting up a tent don’t matter.
Pokemon evolve at warp speed, even if in the game it’s at level forty, and let’s just forget about the time it takes to travel between cities!
And while her shocking past may be exposed in three or four chapters, there are an awful lot long, heartfelt (but inevitably pointless) conversations or scenes which are only there to showcase her amazing array of talents.
Mary-Sue has no sense of pace.
Personally I think those above aren't that prominent in the Pokemon fandom. The main kind Sue you have to fear as a beginner writer in the Pokemon fandom is the Invisi-Sue who is really just a blank sheet of paper.
It can be produced by lack of description, scripty with no telling words even in the dialogue you would associate with a specific character.
It is also produced by a bullet-headed need to get to the end as quickly as possible so they can be a Pokemon Master. Just GetStarter-GetBadge-GetPokemon-EvolvePokemon-GetBadge-FightTeamRocket-GetBadge mentality never diverting from it. It is experience that makes a character.
Mary-Sue does not divert from collecting badges or evolving Pokemon.
A lot of what makes a Mary-Sue comes down to plot, the underlying story of the fiction, the goal the characters are trying to reach at the end of the fic. Sometimes Mary-Sue’s primary goal is to latch on to hunky-canon-character of choice. This is the plot, the whole plot, and nothing but the plot (so help your god).
Oh there may be other things in between, evil rival, getting badges or Oh-no-Team-Rocket-is-after-my-Mysterious-Pokemon-Again!, but the focus is on the squarely romance. Sue and Canon will be locked in a sitcom like ‘will-they-won’t they’ conundrum (or maybe just teenage groping).
Romance is fine as a subplot but if it is the main focus of the fanfiction the theme is no longer about teenagers adventuring with Pokemon but teenagers dealing with teenage angst who have Pokemon. It’s The OC (or horrid teenage drama of your choice) with a bit of things exploding.
Mary-Sue’s main plot revolves around romantic angst.
Last of all is the good old standby ‘Mary-Sue is perfect, she has no flaws.”
Wrong, not even the greenest newbie has a character with no flaws, although it’s darn hard to tell sometimes.
More often she will have the wrong kind of flaws, a talent or a virtue turned inside out to be made to look like a weakness. ‘She cares too much about her friends’ is popular or ‘her flame coloured eyes make everyone think she’s weird so they don’t go near her’ is another one. Then there is the all time failsafe ‘her powers are so strong so that they kill people so she doesn’t let herself get close to people in case she hurts them.’
Another word for a flaw is a fault, and quite often Mary-Sue’s flaws aren’t her fault. If her powers escape when she loses her temper, she can’t control it, or if she was forced to make the decision, it can’t be a flaw. However if she wilfully wants someone hurt who doesn’t deserve it, well of course it’s bad.
Mixing up talent and personality is often a Mary-Sue’s undoing. “She can’t cook” isn’t a flaw. Not being able to cook doesn’t make you a bad person. I’m the girl who made two minute noodles catch fire and I’m still amiable enough.
A flaw is a core part of a character, something people don’t like. A cheat, a liar, a coward. Pompous or two faced. A gossip or self-pitying. Sloppy or a drama queen. These are flaws.
Mary-Sue’s flaws don’t actually reflect a bad character/personality flaw and are outweighed by positive traits/talents.
Now looking at those points, you will find yourself ticking one or two of them. That doesn’t automatically mean she is a Sue, but that doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. It means you have to work that much harder to make the readers accept her. Taking the time to add to the plot layer by layer.
<> Mary-Sue requires explanations from the author (Authors Notes).
Well, if Mary-Sue appears synonymous with Authors Notes (especially if they are in the middle of the actual story. If it comes to that, *whacks with rolled up newspaper* Bad! No in-story AN’s! No cookie for you!) don’t use them. Don’t let on any more than can be helped because you want your readers actually reading the story to find out!
If someone asks, PM them an answer if you want, but if one person asks there is a good chance others want to know. Add it to your story subtly but don’t wreck the exciting mysterious bits!
<> Mary-Sue is a repetitive kind of character found in that particular fandom.
Read. Read. Read. And then read some more. The more you read before you actually enter the fandom, the more you know about what has been done before, and what has been done to death. You want your character to be a breath of fresh air! A novelty!
<> Mary-Sue will impose herself on niches already filled by canon characters and excel in it.
The simplest remedy is making your own niche, something that she alone can bring to the table, which compliments the others without outshining them.
<> Mary-Sue strives to be wonderfully or tragically different
A friend of mine once put it perfectly. A hero isn’t someone extraordinary, but an ordinary person in extraordinary circumstances. Ordinary. That is with all the bumps and bruises and flaws that you, and me, and that annoying kid you sat with in grade five who used to pick his nose and smear it under the table, have.
Average characters are that much more than enjoyable because we can empathise with them so much more easily.
<> Mary Sue causes everything to revolve around her. Even bad publicity is good publicity
Simply step aside. Share the spotlight for a while. Let Ethan get the glory. Let the co-character save the day. Let Josie fade into the background a little. Let the bit characters say ‘who cares’ if she’s dating Lance. A mate once gave a fairly reliable tip. If you count up all the words of dialogue, and your character makes up more than a third of everything, you’re walking on thin ice… In fact, what’s that cracking sound?
<> Mary-Sue warps characters and characteristic consequences.
The key to this is pace, making relationships develop gradually whatever your loins may tell you. That way they aren’t Out Of Character, but have merely evolved from different experiences and re-evaluated themselves slowly and surely just as a normal person would. The more time you can put between meeting and the first kiss the more realistic it will be. “90% of young love is ear burning embarrassment.” If they are kids they should act like kids.
Any girl who kisses a bloke the first time she lays eyes on him is a hussy, and should inherit subsequent reputation. Lots of people are put off by casual swearing; people serious about their education think kids who humiliating teachers have an eight year old mentality. Try being like your character for an hour and watch how people react. Find new and interesting ways to make people hate you!
<> Mary-Sue has no sense of pace.
Easy, Step 1, use the imagery tutorial prior. This will stop you from writing ‘chapters’ less than 500 words composed entirely of dialogue. It will move your character smoothly along from scene to scene without jerky leaps.
Step 2, plot out each chapter. It doesn’t even have to be that. It can be a list of chapters describing in one sentence what you want to achieve for each so you can see for yourself how fast you are progressing towards the climax and resolution of your story.
<> Mary-Sue does not divert from collecting badges or evolving Pokemon
Well, that’s very simple! Find other adventures! Avoid town for that much longer. Natural disasters like floods or cave ins. Losing a Pokeball, running into a strange temple in a forest…. The world of adventure boils down to two words, What If? Always, always look for ways to make things go wrong! Throw more obstacles in your trainer’s path!
<> Mary-Sue’s main plot revolves around romantic angst.
Pace is kind of like ‘the speed at which the story moves along the plot’. If there is no plot, there is no smooth progression. Cure? Have a plot. A plot is a problem that must be solved, a conflict and a resolution. If not a long term plot but at least a short-term chapter plot.
Come on, you’re in a world of Pokemon! Surely, there must be something more interesting than locking lips!
<> Mary-Sue’s flaws don’t actually reflect a bad character or personality flaw, and are outweighed by positive traits and talents.
Ø This will be dealt with later in full detail. For now, just remember a flaw is the same as a fault. If it isn’t their fault, it’s not a flaw. Discover new and interesting ways to make people avoid you!
Now that we’ve dealt with Mary-Sues and Self-Inserts, all that is left is Other-Characters. True, the two above are also referred to as OC’s, but and OC will fit effortlessly into the canon. They aren’t influenced by the whims of the author but have to a preset personality that changes only gradually. They aren’t the author, but facets of the author given shape as a whole person.
They feel realistic.
You are a very complex person.
Your personality is a mixture of every thing you have ever experienced, and compared with every other thing you have ever experienced. These things shape how you react to certain stimuli.
I grew up with three boys bigger than myself, mates but boys nether the less. I spent a childhood avoiding sharp corners lest I be dogpiled, and so I react quickly, sometimes dramatically, to sharp noises or someone appearing over my shoulder. I lived through the world’s biggest mouse plague (recorded in Guinness Book of Records), so I have to resist the urge to chase small things running fast. I have spent my entire life in a tiny town in rural Australia which is very quiet. When I had to live on campus at university with 200 other young drunken adults, it came as a nasty stressful shock to deal with and thus I am easily frightened by loud noises and have a greater appreciation of sleep.
The moral of this story? You don’t need a tragic or painful memory to have things affect you in big and little ways. It can be one tiny thing that affects you in a barely perceptible way, but may dictate an important plot choice.
You are a very complex person.
A reader wants to get to know your characters, understand them and expect them to have an uneasy predictability. They can’t possibly have that with a purebred Self-Insert because there is too much of you to know.
Imagine yourself as a highly cut diamond, and every facet will refract (be affected by stimuli) and reflect (react to certain stimuli) light a certain way. From the outside people can only see a few of these facets at a time, one side. The only way to see every side is from the inside. To see every facet from the outside a person would be dazzled and confused by all these refractions and reflections.
As I said, the reader wants predictability, and to do this you must reduce your character, show them one side and pretend it’s the only side. That side will still have a few facets, but they are all shining light in a similar way.
Here we hit another bump. If we reduce them too much they are a one trick pony. It’s like going so far past OC you’re coming back in a roundabout fashion as a Mary-Sue. What you have to do is pick one facet for the light to hit in particular, and see how it reflects of those close to it.
In other words, one or two main character traits with other complimentary traits extrapolated from those main traits.
But this means your character is less realistic.
There, I can’t help you as I take the Terry Pratchett/cartoon school of characterisation. You can’t give a character depth when you don’t have much more than a pancake, so my characters are generally in the greener version of Self-Insert or at the yellow area of Other-Characters.
The pure green of the spectrum is a true Other-Character and defined purely by their ability to write. I’m sorry but it’s true. The good news is the more you persist, the better you'll be... and don't forget to read!
They are realistic and they move you, you feel what they feel even if you’ve never been put in those circumstances. They are beautifully written and leave you with a sense of whoooooah after you’ve read a really tense chapter. These are the ones that leave you in a watery daze for a few minutes, even an hour. Your muscles feel heavy and you blink slow and slightly confused at the reality you’ve just stepped back into. The illusion was so complete. It feels like you are coming up for air.
I have never had one of these characters, although I think I may have had a moment of ‘coming up for air’. Just once and it will be a long time before I have another one. There are people and stories which can churn them out time after time but I will never be one of them.
Every character is a varying degree of Self-Insert. They are a part of you, a small facet of you, and so it’s understandable that when someone criticises them, it feels like they are criticising you. It’s a dull ache that makes you want to quit.
No! Bad! *Turns on hose* You will not quit! Under no circumstances are you to pack up your bag and leave the wonderful world of fanfiction behind even if a hoard of reviewers is screaming Sue. That is quitters talk! And everyone knows quitters never prosper.
Just step back, take a deep (if hitching) breath and have a look at your character, distance yourself from her. She is NOT you. She is a facet of yourself. They can’t see the whole diamond; they can only judge what they see, and if they see a beautiful girl who enthrals Lance with a single kiss, who ignores authority without consequences and doesn’t appear to do much else than earn badges with a marvellous legendary Pokemon, or a girl who gets badges and evolves pokemon... well what do you expect?
Listen to the reviews/flames and the reasons they say your character is a Sue.
Never be afraid to rewrite. The rewrite is the heart of fanfiction, making things better as you learn. If she’s a Sue, think of how you can taper those qualities, rewrite accordingly and resubmit. You can do that you know. Unlike a published book your story is never set in stone!
And it could be anything! Improper punctuation? Go back through your chapters, correct and resubmit! Poor spelling earlier on? Correct and resubmit! Is your twentieth chapter a major improvement on your first chapter? Rewrite and resubmit!
Oh what wonderful words!
A mary-sue is a fanfiction character usually created by the author of the story. Mary-Sue's have very little or absolutely no weaknesses. I saw weaknesses because a Mary-Sue does NOT have to be a perfect-princess, they just can't have any flaws.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2828044/1/
This is the most well known Mary-Sue right now. It's on Wikipedia. If you read the story you'll see that the OC is not a perfect princess. She cuts herself for goodness sake. Yet everyone calls her a Mary-Sue because she has no weaknesses. She's not scared of anything, she can't die because she's a vampire, and all these other things.
That story also shows us an example of cannon characters made into Mary-Sues. They once had a weakness but now they don't. They've become a human Robot 2000.
Hopefully that helps.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2828044/1/
This is the most well known Mary-Sue right now. It's on Wikipedia. If you read the story you'll see that the OC is not a perfect princess. She cuts herself for goodness sake. Yet everyone calls her a Mary-Sue because she has no weaknesses. She's not scared of anything, she can't die because she's a vampire, and all these other things.
That story also shows us an example of cannon characters made into Mary-Sues. They once had a weakness but now they don't. They've become a human Robot 2000.
Hopefully that helps
.
Dragonfree
Just me
Well, I'm personally against the whole "flaws" view on Mary-Sues, so I think of them differently.
Ahem:
A Mary-Sue is like a black hole. When it comes right down to it, you really can't see her just by looking at her. You may see a black space and think 'aha, it's a black hole!' but maybe it's just a black plate or poster or something, so it's dangerous to jump to conclusions based on that alone.
But that doesn't mean you can't detect the black hole. All you need to do is look at it in context. Concentrate on the other objects around the black hole. Are they swirling around it at ever-increasing speed before being ripped apart and pulled out of view altogether? Okay, we've got a black hole.
Do the same with Sues. Don't just look at her description and decide you know what she is, although it's easy to get a strong suspicion of it and you may be very likely to be right.
She is a Sue if a significant part of the universe (i.e. the part being observed) clearly revolves around her, is distorted by her, and behaves in absurd ways that the human mind cannot understand in her presence.
And that, my friend, is a Mary-Sue. Don't get too caught up in giving all your characters "flaws". That's all relative anyway, and I doubt half of the real people in the world have any of the kind of unredeemable "flaws" that people always tell you to do, like a serious phobia or stupidity or cruelty or whatever. Sure, some of them do, but you don't need to go and panic because your character is "perfect". It all comes down to realism. Does your character's personality work out as a whole? Why did their personality become this way? How would this character, with this personality, react in this situation? How do other characters react to this character's personality? If you get those right, you have a solid, good character, flaws be damned.
Ahem:
A Mary-Sue is like a black hole. When it comes right down to it, you really can't see her just by looking at her. You may see a black space and think 'aha, it's a black hole!' but maybe it's just a black plate or poster or something, so it's dangerous to jump to conclusions based on that alone.
But that doesn't mean you can't detect the black hole. All you need to do is look at it in context. Concentrate on the other objects around the black hole. Are they swirling around it at ever-increasing speed before being ripped apart and pulled out of view altogether? Okay, we've got a black hole.
Do the same with Sues. Don't just look at her description and decide you know what she is, although it's easy to get a strong suspicion of it and you may be very likely to be right.
She is a Sue if a significant part of the universe (i.e. the part being observed) clearly revolves around her, is distorted by her, and behaves in absurd ways that the human mind cannot understand in her presence.
And that, my friend, is a Mary-Sue. Don't get too caught up in giving all your characters "flaws". That's all relative anyway, and I doubt half of the real people in the world have any of the kind of unredeemable "flaws" that people always tell you to do, like a serious phobia or stupidity or cruelty or whatever. Sure, some of them do, but you don't need to go and panic because your character is "perfect". It all comes down to realism. Does your character's personality work out as a whole? Why did their personality become this way? How would this character, with this personality, react in this situation? How do other characters react to this character's personality? If you get those right, you have a solid, good character, flaws be damned.
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Wondrous Sableye
Heh.
I've got a fairly simple definition:
A Mary-Sue is a character whose exploits, appearance, and/or abilities overwrite their personality.
Readers of a 'Suefic will usually be expected to suspend their disbelief well beyond the grasp of a normal human mind. They will be expected to have the character's complete, and more often than not, unwritten poorly thought-out history and expected to use stereotypical character builds with slight modifications, e.g. Belinda Prettyface Starbright is a stereotypical prep-girl drama-queen, but with pink hair and eyes.
As Tezza's guide states, Mary-Sues are sometimes idealized self-inserts. The only way a situation like that could be worse is if that is how the person actually sees themself. For example, I could say I'm a "rebellious genius" with "dark-gold hair" and "ice-blue eyes." This description, however, fails to account for the facts that I'm about three slouches away from scoliosis, I have a concave chest, so I look like I have a belly, and the most out-of-the-norm thing I've ever done was probably done when I was in my toddler years. The first kind of description conveniently leaves out any flaws, physical or otherwise. Add in the second part, though, and you'll have a geek that spends forty percent of his time on the internet, half of which is spent surfing aimlessly trying (and failing horridly) to alleviate boredom. The point I'm trying to make? Semi-honest self-insert Mary-Sues focus more on the author's good points, and any bad points are usually worded to sound like a gift or a pleasant quirk.
In any case, Mary-Sues are almost categorically characters you'll want to avoid writing, as just about every other explanation here evidences.
A Mary-Sue is a character whose exploits, appearance, and/or abilities overwrite their personality.
Readers of a 'Suefic will usually be expected to suspend their disbelief well beyond the grasp of a normal human mind. They will be expected to have the character's complete, and more often than not, unwritten poorly thought-out history and expected to use stereotypical character builds with slight modifications, e.g. Belinda Prettyface Starbright is a stereotypical prep-girl drama-queen, but with pink hair and eyes.
As Tezza's guide states, Mary-Sues are sometimes idealized self-inserts. The only way a situation like that could be worse is if that is how the person actually sees themself. For example, I could say I'm a "rebellious genius" with "dark-gold hair" and "ice-blue eyes." This description, however, fails to account for the facts that I'm about three slouches away from scoliosis, I have a concave chest, so I look like I have a belly, and the most out-of-the-norm thing I've ever done was probably done when I was in my toddler years. The first kind of description conveniently leaves out any flaws, physical or otherwise. Add in the second part, though, and you'll have a geek that spends forty percent of his time on the internet, half of which is spent surfing aimlessly trying (and failing horridly) to alleviate boredom. The point I'm trying to make? Semi-honest self-insert Mary-Sues focus more on the author's good points, and any bad points are usually worded to sound like a gift or a pleasant quirk.
In any case, Mary-Sues are almost categorically characters you'll want to avoid writing, as just about every other explanation here evidences.
Chibi Pika
Stay positive
Wow *long applause for Tezza* That was a very interesting and comprehensive guide. Kudos.
Well, I have to add my own two cents now. And I strongly agree with Dragonfree in that the whole "flaws" thing has driven me crazy since forever.
But before I get to that, I'll just account my experiences with 'Sue-ism.
Even though I like to say it a lot, Jade in the early versions of LC was not a mary-sue. She did have the "fight Team Rocket for no reason" thing going on, but other than that... She did get a Legendary, but so did everyone else in the story, and she didn't get hers until chapter 33. She was pretty good at battling, but all of the gym battles were long and drawn out, and needed complex strategy to win. And there were many characters that were stronger than her.
She WAS, however, flatter than a pancake. A character can easily have absolutely no character whatsoever, and still not be a 'sue, even if they do succeed at things.
Flaws do not make a character realistic. If you've got a main character that's ugly, has sucky Pokemon, has no important past or backstory and never shows emotion, then how is that any better than a Sue?
So yeah...Jade was a self-insert with no personality. She pretty much was always in the "yellow zone" with reference to Tezza's chart, simply because she had no traits, let alone good ones that I wish I had. All of the characters were modeled off of someone I knew, and to write their reactions and dialogue, I'd model that character off the actual person to get it "realistic."
But then around the current rewrite, things changed. I don't consider the actual person anymore, or even the character's personality in itself, I just write. Lines and actions come naturally. And Jade has increasingly moved farther away from me. She still is rash and finds competitive battling confusing, and lets herself get in over her head in bad situations. But you'll never see a laundry list of things she's good and bad at. Those don't make the character. Their reactions do. How they interact with their world (a concept that I'm very obsessed with.)
I try not to control my characters. They do what they want, not what I want. I think that's ultimately the best road to take toward 3D characters.
~Chibi~;249;;448;
Edit: I took a mary-sue quiz just for the heck of it, and got 47. According to the ranking, my character aparrently gets many eye-rollings and "yeah-right!"s from readers, and is so fargone that I should just scrap her. I find that rather amusing, to be honest. ^^ But then, it only figures--LC is a cliche-breaker (a fic that deliberately utilizes cliches, hoping to show them in a well-handled light.)
Well, I have to add my own two cents now. And I strongly agree with Dragonfree in that the whole "flaws" thing has driven me crazy since forever.
But before I get to that, I'll just account my experiences with 'Sue-ism.
Even though I like to say it a lot, Jade in the early versions of LC was not a mary-sue. She did have the "fight Team Rocket for no reason" thing going on, but other than that... She did get a Legendary, but so did everyone else in the story, and she didn't get hers until chapter 33. She was pretty good at battling, but all of the gym battles were long and drawn out, and needed complex strategy to win. And there were many characters that were stronger than her.
She WAS, however, flatter than a pancake. A character can easily have absolutely no character whatsoever, and still not be a 'sue, even if they do succeed at things.
Flaws do not make a character realistic. If you've got a main character that's ugly, has sucky Pokemon, has no important past or backstory and never shows emotion, then how is that any better than a Sue?
So yeah...Jade was a self-insert with no personality. She pretty much was always in the "yellow zone" with reference to Tezza's chart, simply because she had no traits, let alone good ones that I wish I had. All of the characters were modeled off of someone I knew, and to write their reactions and dialogue, I'd model that character off the actual person to get it "realistic."
But then around the current rewrite, things changed. I don't consider the actual person anymore, or even the character's personality in itself, I just write. Lines and actions come naturally. And Jade has increasingly moved farther away from me. She still is rash and finds competitive battling confusing, and lets herself get in over her head in bad situations. But you'll never see a laundry list of things she's good and bad at. Those don't make the character. Their reactions do. How they interact with their world (a concept that I'm very obsessed with.)
I try not to control my characters. They do what they want, not what I want. I think that's ultimately the best road to take toward 3D characters.
~Chibi~;249;;448;
Edit: I took a mary-sue quiz just for the heck of it, and got 47. According to the ranking, my character aparrently gets many eye-rollings and "yeah-right!"s from readers, and is so fargone that I should just scrap her. I find that rather amusing, to be honest. ^^ But then, it only figures--LC is a cliche-breaker (a fic that deliberately utilizes cliches, hoping to show them in a well-handled light.)
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Hahahabvc87
Always watching...
Eeeeeeek. A 115 Mary-Sue rating. When the maximum unredeemable starts at 71. ZOMG. O__O;;
My rewrite fails miserably...
Is there a way to remedy a Mary-Sue when the circumstances themselves turn unrealistic and the character plays a major role in creating that circumstance?
My rewrite fails miserably...
Is there a way to remedy a Mary-Sue when the circumstances themselves turn unrealistic and the character plays a major role in creating that circumstance?
I must point this out.
Pokémon characters have just as much a chance of being a Mary Sue then human characters, but strangely enough, they don't get pointed out as much.
Legendary pokémon and pokémon that look kinda canine-ish are the worst offenders
Actually, I'm surprized that Sabrina (the Kirlia from my fic) hasn't been accused of being called one yet.;
Pokémon characters have just as much a chance of being a Mary Sue then human characters, but strangely enough, they don't get pointed out as much.
Legendary pokémon and pokémon that look kinda canine-ish are the worst offenders
Actually, I'm surprized that Sabrina (the Kirlia from my fic) hasn't been accused of being called one yet.
;
Chibi Pika
Stay positive
Whoa, how'd that happen??? oO; I originally got a 60 on another one that I found on wikipedia, and the maximum unredeemable was 50. =P But then I trimmed off a few answers that were normal to any character in a Pokemon fic and got 47, which still aparrently means that Jade should get scrapped. xP You's can't trust dem tests.
~Chibi~;249;;448;
I wonder why the forum censored the word 'sni ggers'?
Chibi Pika, one of the points I'm trying to get across is that you can't decide if she's a Sue or not. To paraphrase Peter Beagle, "What is Sue no two men know" and you least of all.
For example, look at the 'buts' your post. A Mary-Sue is rarely a single thing but a thing as a whole. I'd say being 'flatter than a pancake' is an invisi-sue. If I don't care about her I really don't care much about what she does. Similarly with battling Team Rocket and catching a legendary. Your story's redeeming quality that would have negated many Sue-qualities is that you used pace, you spread things out and waited till chapter 33.
Personally I think the main cure for Sue's is pace. Rather than proving all Sue's talents at once within the first five chapters you can soften the blow by introducing each a tiny bit at a time.
I don't think Mary-Sue Litmus tests are much use unless you make a direct yes/no answer. Again there's that 'but'.... "Yes she's Ash's daughter, but she's adopted." "Yes she started off with an eevee, but it was from a breeding center not a Professor." "Yes she catches a legendary Pokemon, but it's in chapter 88."
Chibi Pika, one of the points I'm trying to get across is that you can't decide if she's a Sue or not. To paraphrase Peter Beagle, "What is Sue no two men know" and you least of all.
For example, look at the 'buts' your post. A Mary-Sue is rarely a single thing but a thing as a whole. I'd say being 'flatter than a pancake' is an invisi-sue. If I don't care about her I really don't care much about what she does. Similarly with battling Team Rocket and catching a legendary. Your story's redeeming quality that would have negated many Sue-qualities is that you used pace, you spread things out and waited till chapter 33.
Personally I think the main cure for Sue's is pace. Rather than proving all Sue's talents at once within the first five chapters you can soften the blow by introducing each a tiny bit at a time.
I don't think Mary-Sue Litmus tests are much use unless you make a direct yes/no answer. Again there's that 'but'.... "Yes she's Ash's daughter, but she's adopted." "Yes she started off with an eevee, but it was from a breeding center not a Professor." "Yes she catches a legendary Pokemon, but it's in chapter 88."
Hahahabvc87
Always watching...
That's what I get for trying to write something from a legendary's point of view, and how he gets caught up in familiar events... o_x
So basically, to prevent an overwhelming cascade of positive characteristics pushing my fic off Mary-Sue Valley, I space them out and gradually develop them as the plot goes on?
...Problem is, the plot branches midway through the main story and one branch takes a twist back in time. Both branches meet up a few times further along the way and merge at the end, but are basically different enough that I've decided to turn each of them into a seperate fic - same things from two different POVs (They're different enough that you don't have to read the other to understand what is happening, but reading both does give more insights).
At the beginning of one of the branches, the protagonist already has heavily developed strengths, not to mention knowledge centuries ahead of time. How should I remedy this? Or should I just go with the ol' "memory wipe from amnesia" and start off everything anew?
On a side note:
The same reason they censor the phrase "bash it" without the space in between. *coughhiddenvulgaritycough*