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What is the series' goal here?

Master Pikachu 11

Well-Known Member
The thing is, I agree with you. I think the only real reason Ash is still the protagonist IS Pikachu. You can't get rid of the mascot, and giving an identical Pikachu to a new main character would just be more awkward than keeping Ash forever. A second valid reason would be that having Ash around makes it really easy to jump right into a new generation, you don't have to spend as much time establishing the main character if said character already has an established place in the world, even new kids will easily understand that this is Ash the Pokemon trainer and he's here to see cool new Pokemon and places and that's what we'll show you right away. AG, DP and the newest series spend more time on new characters in their intros but when they don't want to do that Ash is right there for their convenience.

So yeah, I do think that they could do the show without Ash with no great losses, and keeping him forever has its problems such as making character progression difficult to write (which is why they, most of the time, don't lol), but ultimately they can do it because it doesn't matter, it's more convenient that Ash stays, so Ash stays. Might as well do it to keep as many old fans as possible around in the process.

I won't be 100% cynical and will give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe the staff just has an emotional connection to Ash themselves, maybe they like Rica Matsumoto, etc lol, I'm sure that's at least a part of it, new writers/directors like XY's Tetsuo Yajima might even be more inspired to do cool stuff because it's an honour to take on a classic character.
Yeah, it’s understandable, on why they keep him, but as I highlighted in your post if they want to try to keep as many old fans as possible then they need to have Ash do some things such as either catching new Pokémon whether it’s new Gen or Pokémon that he wasn’t able to get when he was in past regions or bring back reserves which also promotes and showcases Pokémon. I don’t know how kids are now but what got me into Pokémon as a kid was watching Ash capture Pokémon and then watching them battle as it made me want to get my game boy out and start playing to capture Pokémon and battle with them. That’s what really makes Pokémon popular to me and probably for many others. Still past seasons did allow for time spend on new characters but they still had Ash do some things such as battling and capture Pokémon as well. There was a balance because both Ash and the companions captured Pokémon not just one of them. I will be more hopeful since they gave Ash Mimey that they may be more open to letting him start catching Pokémon as well.
 
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Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
After clamoring for change in the show's formula for ages, I can't complain about another shake-up. I was a bit turned off by Sun&Moon's style but came around to really love, enjoy and follow the series. I think one of the things I also dug was the fact it seemed like the crew had fun with it. Plenty of references, changes in how fillers were handled, changes in how certain characters and Pokemon were portrayed, just overall a fresh feeling with a whole new style. I wonder if the staff themselves get tired of the same old formula and love taking on something different? Obviously the show is written in mind for the core audience of children but I accept the change. It's Pokemon anime, it's changing and always changing and a cash cow franchise. I've embraced the spontaneity and newness of something different now.

I feel like a lot of dissatisfaction in this show could be rooted in having too high expectations or one's that aren't realistic. Them bringing back a Gregguru and Pochama for an episode in itself is a passive reference to the DP saga and cute little easter egg even if not having the accompanying trainers of said Pokemon. Taken on its own for what it was you got a cute episode of a frog and penguin competing in a race, Go got to catch a cool Pokemon and battle with it, Team Rocket got to showcase some intimidating and strong Pokemon (missed seeing Tunbear!) You got fun little lesson on teamwork with some cool Pokemon, it was a fine enough episode after multiple episodes development. Pocket Monsters (2019) was not promised to be a trip down memory lane.

Truthfully I more or less have been having a blast with these episodes, but then again I actually like Go and don't mind his episodic captures. I enjoy Pikachu a lot on his own and of course dig Satoshi/Hibunny. An episode based around Satoshi showing Go how incredible battles after he felt ashamed for failing in his first battle is a great time for me, so is watching them ride aboard Lugia, or Go/Hibunny save a train from a GMax Kabigon, I've felt despite the "filler" style of some episodes something is being offered that could be seen as a showcasing of or step toward the characters or narrative involved (elements of S&M still). I'm not for certain what PM aims for (I'm sure Satoshi's capture will happen soon) but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and enjoying the ride. Not staying razor focused on it on a daily basis, give your mind and head time to breath without flipping out and just let the series carry on.
 

noakai

Well-Known Member
I know Masuda talked about this in interviews, but to be honest, the reasoning is still dumb to me. Pokemon should not be accommodating apathy. By trying to appeal to people who don't care enough to watch/play, they are alienating other parts of their fanbase. If people are being "distracted", it's because Pokemon is failing to engage the audience. Nobody will go and play a free mobile app or watch another show if Pokemon is engaging.

To be honest, I'm failing to see anything about PM2019 that would make those apathetic viewers care again. If you weren't into Pokemon before, the fact the show is episodic and has discarded its over-arching story is unlikely to draw you back in.

Honestly though, do you think a 9 or 10 year old cares about "over-arching story", outside of maybe a tournament/league arc? And I'm not saying kids are too stupid or don't deserve good stories, but I really don't think a kid who played the games is going to care that when watches the anime on the day it airs, there isn't a big over-arching plot. It's about two boys having adventures, catching Pokemon and battling, and I don't really think they'd have a problem with that. But I've always thought that the people who make the anime don't honestly care one way or another if the adults who loved the series are still watching - for them, I believe it's "if they are still watching that's good and I hope they like it, but they are not who we think of when we make this series." People who have gotten older and don't really care about it anymore are not who they are trying to draw back - they are looking to draw in kids flipping through anime wanting something fun to watch, and weekly battles and catching monsters is probably plenty of fun for them.

Also, while cameos from old characters are something I would love, for newer fans they would be not be very exciting because they don't know those characters or care about them at all. With Brock and Misty, those were Kanto characters so if you'd heard of Pokemon you probably at least knew OF them, but unless you watched BW why would you care that Iris is popping up? I would LOVE seeing the Alola kids but would not be surprised if that never happens (or if it does, it's only Lillie so they can remind people to buy her figures).

As for kids getting bored because you can miss episodes without missing anything - do you know which TV shows in America tend to be the most popular and run years and years? Not the ones with actual story plots, the ones that have the same kind of plot every episode and if there is any big plot stuff, it's sprinkled in, aka procedurals. Detective shows, cop shows, medical shows, people tune in despite the formula being the same and every episode being mostly self contained, mostly because in the end they are there for stuff other than any big main plot. Yes, they don't get the critical acclaim that serialized shows do, but they make a lot of money and stay around for years that way and usually spawn spinoffs too. In Pokemon's case, the draw would be the Pokemon themselves, which is basically what these episodes have been - show off these specific Pokemon, then move on.
 
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Bylethsak

Member
As for kids getting bored because you can miss episodes without missing anything - do you know which TV shows in America tend to be the most popular and run years and years? Not the ones with actual story plots, the ones that have the same kind of plot every episode and if there is any big plot stuff, it's sprinkled in, aka procedurals. Detective shows, cop shows, medical shows, people tune in despite the formula being the same and every episode being mostly self contained, mostly because in the end they are there for stuff other than any big main plot. In Pokemon's case, that would be the Pokemon themselves, which is basically what these episodes have been - show off these specific Pokemon, then move on.

This is true. When the Piplup ep was announced so many people thought Dawn would return, but I kinda predicted it wouldn't happen. For one thing DP ended 10 years ago in 2010, how many kids watching pokemon now would even know who she is, or even seen an episode with her in it?
 

noakai

Well-Known Member
Also to be clear, I am not bagging on anyone who doesn't enjoy this, lots of people don't enjoy shows that are mostly made up of one-off episodes and prefer really tightly plotted stuff that has a set number of episodes so the writers have to wrap the story up. But I don't think this season of Pokemon is going for that at all and they aren't worried that it will turn people off because the kinds of people who don't like that are not who they are angling for. Every new game and every new anime season is all about capturing the interest of children right now so that they can get hooked and stick around for a decade or so playing the games and buying the merch. They want to attract the broadest amount of people as possible so they can plug them into the nostalgia machine that has Pokemon Go making almost $1 billion last year. Much easier to do with a fast-paced, fun romp that gives you something new every week and then moves on (so if something isn't working they can just leave it and on to the next thing). I don't even think this season of that approach is bad per se, but if it's not an approach you like, the whole series is probably gonna be a bust for you.
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
I would't say that a series with an arc doesnt work. I mean series like Miraculous Ladybug, Steven universe, Boruto, One Piece are populair series with arcs., it zee the little things in episodes that connect each other. Besides There's something called binge-watching too.
 

noakai

Well-Known Member
I would't say that a series with an arc doesnt work. I mean series like Miraculous Ladybug, Steven universe, Boruto, One Piece are populair series with arcs., it zee the little things in episodes that connect each other. Besides There's something called binge-watching too.

Nowhere in my comments say that series with arcs don't work. I'm saying that ones without them aren't automatically bad and tons of people are just fine with series that don't have tightly interconnected episodes that feed into a larger plot every episode. It seems the anime is going that route for this season. And binge watching works just fine with both kinds of series, so.
 

Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
I've never appreciate fanfiction more than I do as of today. While the goals of the anime is to continue to pander to kids, fanfic writers actually tend to care about the older fans. We can see stories that outshine what the anime does anyday. Certainly including whatever this "anime" is trying to do.

Thanks to fanfic, mature content can be a thing in Pokemon! :D
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
Nowhere in my comments say that series with arcs don't work. I'm saying that ones without them aren't automatically bad and tons of people are just fine with series that don't have tightly interconnected episodes that feed into a larger plot every episode. It seems the anime is going that route for this season. And binge watching works just fine with both kinds of series, so.
Um I didnt mean to offend you and this post wasnt about you. Just about the fact that long arcs also work Just as episodic series work.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
In my experience (which obviously isn't all encompassing so I'm not saying I know this is how it is) they don't tend to care really, between talking to kids who like Pokemon in prechools, kindergartens, camps etc I've worked at and showing episodes to my own kid sister, they'd usually just talk about how they like the Pokemon rather than any actual details about the show, the only time anyone really seemed to care about what HAPPENS in it was my sister with the Aether arc in SM, cause parent child relationship's just a hard hitting relatable topic like that. I don't think most kids think whether what they're watching is important or worth the time, if it's fun it's fun, you tune in because you just...like the thing rather than because you have a need to know what happens in a plot.

Then there's of course, myself. As much of a hardcore fan I am today I have to admit I didn't give a fuuuuuudge about anything other than the next time my favourite Mons were on screen lmao. I loved Team Rocket battles cause Weezing and Arbok were my favourites and I just wanted new footage of them to look at when drawing. I replayed the hell out of the first league episode cause Kingler was so cool, but I don't remember anything about my experience watching the last one cause I didn't care that Ash lost. Only time I remember really caring about the plot was when the Finnish dub skipped ALL of Orange Islands and I was like bruh why does Charizard listen to Ash now and why did he just tell Falkner about a Pidgeot that I haven't seen WAIT PIDGEOTTO EVOLVED AND GOT RELEASED?

Even when I was older and had distinctly cared about the characters and story in for example, Digimon (last two episodes of that made me genuinely emotional even when I was like, 8) I would still watch AG with largely the same mindset, so it wasn't that I was just a dumb kid (I mean I very well may have been but that's besides the point), it was specifically how I viewed Pokemon. I really liked May (I drew a comic where she beats Ash in a battle, my mom asked why and I distinctly remember saying "Ash sucks", yikes), I got very emotional over Weezing and Arbok leaving, and I LIKED the battles, but mostly it'd just be like, aight where's Torkoal. And eventually I just stopped watching like half way through AG till I picked it back up in Japanese at early BW when I was 16.

Sorry about the personal ramble but how actual kids feel about Pokemon is definitely an interesting discussion. In a way what you said is true, that's what happened to me. I didn't find any great harm in missing some episodes and eventually I just...stopped watching for no real reason. But I was never BORED when I did watch, because I just loved Pokemon. Simply the existence of Pokemon on screen had all the effects on me that the creators would want, made me play the games, buy cards, toys etc. It was a good time for what it was. And with the way writers treat continuity I'm not sure if they really expect anything more from most kids.
Fair enough. As a 26 year old who would rather avoid interaction with kids whenever possible I can't claim to know what they are interested in watching and so you probably do have a better grasp of what they enjoy. I'm just going off my limited perspective and exrapolating from there.

As for kids getting bored because you can miss episodes without missing anything - do you know which TV shows in America tend to be the most popular and run years and years? Not the ones with actual story plots, the ones that have the same kind of plot every episode and if there is any big plot stuff, it's sprinkled in, aka procedurals. Detective shows, cop shows, medical shows, people tune in despite the formula being the same and every episode being mostly self contained, mostly because in the end they are there for stuff other than any big main plot. Yes, they don't get the critical acclaim that serialized shows do, but they make a lot of money and stay around for years that way and usually spawn spinoffs too. In Pokemon's case, the draw would be the Pokemon themselves, which is basically what these episodes have been - show off these specific Pokemon, then move on.
That... Is a damn good point actually, I'll concede my argument.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Satoshi & Touko said:
While the goals of the anime is to continue to pander to kids, fanfic writers actually tend to care about the older fans.

You make it sound as if the writers should care about older fans, when I personally feel that they shouldn't. Older fans aren't the main demographic and many of their demands aren't practical or even feasible to begin with, so why should the writers cater to the minority when they can just keep focusing on younger viewers? If I was in their shoes and I was in charge of running a series like Pocket Monsters, I'd probably do the exact same thing they're doing.
 

Kazuniya

read/watch dungeon meshi
Pokemon has always been a show for kids, that much is true. However, even in the past, this children's show was capable of delivering capable storylines and decently written characters as well as episodes where stuff happened to the characters and it actually meant something in the grand scheme of things. This whole argument doesn't sit well with me because even young children should be allowed to experience good writing in things that they watch, not be exposed to shallow characters/goals/meaningless episodes (which is what Pocket Monsters has essentially become at this point).

The series overall has taken a turn for the worse and that might change at some point (who knows, maybe we're just off to a rocky start), but it being a show for kids does absolutely not excuse the regression in quality and the senseless treatment of its characters and story arcs.
 

J Bouken

Active Member
Honestly though, do you think a 9 or 10 year old cares about "over-arching story", outside of maybe a tournament/league arc? And I'm not saying kids are too stupid or don't deserve good stories, but I really don't think a kid who played the games is going to care that when watches the anime on the day it airs, there isn't a big over-arching plot. It's about two boys having adventures, catching Pokemon and battling, and I don't really think they'd have a problem with that. .

Yes, actually. I can only go by my own experience, but when I was that young, I did care about the over-arching story. I might not have been as keen on the details, but I knew there was a story and was very much invested in Ash's journey from A to B, in addition to seeing Pokemon I liked on a TV screen.

More to the point, I absolutely think we should avoid assuming we know what kids want, because they have just as many reasons for liking a show that adults do. All we have here is anecdotal evidence.

But I've always thought that the people who make the anime don't honestly care one way or another if the adults who loved the series are still watching - for them, I believe it's "if they are still watching that's good and I hope they like it, but they are not who we think of when we make this series." People who have gotten older and don't really care about it anymore are not who they are trying to draw back - they are looking to draw in kids flipping through anime wanting something fun to watch, and weekly battles and catching monsters is probably plenty of fun for them.

PM2019 was stated to be a showed for fans "new and old", and kicked off with an episode about Pikachu's backstory with the intention of it creating a buzz. Since then, it has shown us Lugia, Ho-oh, Bulbasaur, Piplup and Croagunk, which is a mighty specific selection of Pokemon for a show that apparently has no concern for its older audience, especially when you consider all the new Pokemon that have been released. They are making these episodes so that an older fan can go "oh yeah, I remember that Pokemon!".

The idea they have no concern for anyone above the age of 10 is dated, and this applies to the whole franchise. The advertising for the games has heavily featured adults and has centred on a theme of rediscovering childhood innocence. If you watch the show live on TV Tokyo, you'll see an advert for Sword and Shield where two adults are reminiscing about the older games and begging their mother to buy them the new one. Even the card game adverts show adults playing the game, not kids.

When Ash won the Alola League, the aftermath wasn't about how it was a great moment for new viewers and kids, but a great moment for people who have been following his journey for a long time. The 20th movie was a reboot of Ash's first adventure; the 21st took inspiration from Pokemon 2000; the 22nd was a remake of Mewtwo Strikes back; SM brought back Brock and Misty and featured Mesaze! Pokemon Master and Type: Wild for its OP and ED at different points. PM2019 literally showed us Ash's old badges and trophies without actually explaining what they were and where they came from, because they knew long-time viewers would know what they are already.

This is not the behaviour of a franchise who only see its older fans as an afterthought.

Also, while cameos from old characters are something I would love, for newer fans they would be not be very exciting because they don't know those characters or care about them at all. With Brock and Misty, those were Kanto characters so if you'd heard of Pokemon you probably at least knew OF them, but unless you watched BW why would you care that Iris is popping up? I would LOVE seeing the Alola kids but would not be surprised if that never happens (or if it does, it's only Lillie so they can remind people to buy her figures).

I wasn't suggesting they bring back a bunch of old characters, but I want to address this anyway. Sure, cameos aren't as exciting for newer viewers, simply because they don't know the character. However, these characters appearing can make those new viewers curious and want to check out older episodes or older games.

As for kids getting bored because you can miss episodes without missing anything - do you know which TV shows in America tend to be the most popular and run years and years? Not the ones with actual story plots, the ones that have the same kind of plot every episode and if there is any big plot stuff, it's sprinkled in, aka procedurals. Detective shows, cop shows, medical shows, people tune in despite the formula being the same and every episode being mostly self contained, mostly because in the end they are there for stuff other than any big main plot. Yes, they don't get the critical acclaim that serialized shows do, but they make a lot of money and stay around for years that way and usually spawn spinoffs too. In Pokemon's case, the draw would be the Pokemon themselves, which is basically what these episodes have been - show off these specific Pokemon, then move on.

In the first place, I didn't say anything about kids skipping weeks out of boredom. Whether a show is serial or episodic isn't really the issue here. The issue here is that PM2019, for me anyway, is boring and using superficial means to win its audience over when it should be focusing on being the best show it can be, whatever form it takes.

Also to be clear, I am not bagging on anyone who doesn't enjoy this, lots of people don't enjoy shows that are mostly made up of one-off episodes and prefer really tightly plotted stuff that has a set number of episodes so the writers have to wrap the story up. But I don't think this season of Pokemon is going for that at all and they aren't worried that it will turn people off because the kinds of people who don't like that are not who they are angling for. Every new game and every new anime season is all about capturing the interest of children right now so that they can get hooked and stick around for a decade or so playing the games and buying the merch. They want to attract the broadest amount of people as possible so they can plug them into the nostalgia machine that has Pokemon Go making almost $1 billion last year. Much easier to do with a fast-paced, fun romp that gives you something new every week and then moves on (so if something isn't working they can just leave it and on to the next thing). I don't even think this season of that approach is bad per se, but if it's not an approach you like, the whole series is probably gonna be a bust for you.

I know this point isn't specifically aimed at me, but for what it's worth, I like episodic shows. But an episodic show can still have an over-arching story and a sense of continuity to it. If they're going to do away with those things, then fine, but what they're bringing to the table in their place hasn't been of a good standard. The show is a "bust" for me because it simply hasn't been very good.
 
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Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I know Masuda talked about this in interviews, but to be honest, the reasoning is still dumb to me. Pokemon should not be accommodating apathy. By trying to appeal to people who don't care enough to watch/play, they are alienating other parts of their fanbase. If people are being "distracted", it's because Pokemon is failing to engage the audience. Nobody will go and play a free mobile app or watch another show if Pokemon is engaging.

To be honest, I'm failing to see anything about PM2019 that would make those apathetic viewers care again. If you weren't into Pokemon before, the fact the show is episodic and has discarded its over-arching story is unlikely to draw you back in.

Here's quote from comics writer Grant Morrison which was something in the lines of "we can do whatever we want, readers are going to buy anyway".

Same logic applies here. They know the "super" fans will get Pokémon regardless of anything by the mere virtue of being Pokémon. Thus they only need to do the bare mininum.

Casuals might not be loyal but they have numbers. If you do the bare mininum to attract the hardcores and make it accessible to the casuals, then whatever you can lose from the few who'll see through all this and say "not getting this guy" will become pretty much meaningless.

Basically, the people who make this show expect most of its audience to only watch it because they want to see cute and cool creatures on screen, that's why we got an episode with a Piplup and a Croagunk that were basically clones of their past popular versions but without the human characters, cause the humans don't matter. They may use the humans for nostalgia bait sometimes, but most of the time, they don't matter.

That part is true.

One just needs to take a look at the merchandise. How many human characters got figures?

Classic!Ash and TR got Figuarts but Bandai didn't make more which pretty much tell us there wasn't demand.

I saw some figmas for Red, Lillie and Selene (random hehe) but for all I've seen the line didn't continue.

And those are figures appealing to collectors/hardcore.

During XY, Ash and V1 Serena had articulated toys. But V2 Serena didn't get one (a shame IMHO). Nor Clemont but gym leaders don't matter anyway.

So yeah, at the end of the day, humans are just a simple tool to create a connection between the pokémon and the audience. But I wouldn't doubt if in the future, they'll just go for a show that only has pokémon on it. Maybe not even as a standard episode lenght but a series of shorts.
 

axelme

Well-Known Member
okay, so i havent watched everything. i watched the first few and got annoyed. came back and have seen the last 2 and see its not gotten any better and that my first impression was the right one. this series is just a flaming disaster. there's literally nothing good about it.

as others have said the idea actually didnt sound bad but the execution has been a disaster.

go is , hands down the most unlikeable main character this show has ever had and its not remotely close.

i cant stand what they're doing tot his. yes, i understand i am not in that target audience but why does a show targeted to children have to be this bad. why cant it have an actual plot. even sun and moon was better in this regard. and the thing is pokemon has always been geared toward children so why , all of a sudden does a show who's target audience is the same have to turned into this.

i get wanting to do things a different way but its just gone to far.
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
That being said I think everyone should relax a little on things, ultimately since we only have one new main character there aren’t going to be as many important developments or changes on the cast. Plus I think the Dande/Wataru episode will probably be something noteworthy. Sporadic development and focus somewhat in similar vein to S&M versus hitting you with a truck of it. Trying to give the “fillers” as much prominence as every other episode, maybe that’s cause S&M taught me to enjoy “fillers” just as much as any other episodes because many times little things in them hinted as some greater plan or future for the show and those supposed “filler” characters appeared again several times later.

Even your basic filler sometimes was working in service with the larger plot threads and narratives with driving the characters. They’re clearly using the all regions formula to touch on certain things like the flying rainbow chicken or Battle Frontier as shoutouts. Let them hit all regions before jumping into some super consistent narrative.
 
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axelme

Well-Known Member
Honestly though, do you think a 9 or 10 year old cares about "over-arching story", outside of maybe a tournament/league arc?

i actually think they do. just using my little brother as an example he cared what was going on in the show. more than just seeing the pokemon he would get confused and ask questions about what was going on in the plot. if he missed an episode and we saw something where he didnt remember how it happened we had to go back and find out. and when i was younger i was that way too

i think little kids the first thing is seeing the pokemon and that but i do think they care more than people would think about plot. i mean, we arent talking about 1 or 2 year olds here where you can throw basically anything with bright colors infront of them and make something look cute or put on upbeat music and they'll be entertained
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
I think that the creators are trying to focus on a new main character and see how well viewers respond if the new guy does all of the catching of Pokémon while Ash acts like a mentor to him. It seems to be some sort of test to see if the anime can shift focus on a new main character without cutting Ash and Pikachu out of the picture completely.
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
I think that the creators are trying to focus on a new main character and see how well viewers respond if the new guy does all of the catching of Pokémon while Ash acts like a mentor to him. It seems to be some sort of test to see if the anime can shift focus on a new main character without cutting Ash and Pikachu out of the picture completely.
They aren’t cutting Ash out he’s too iconic lol.
 
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