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What makes Paul's Froslass so much better than Paul's Honchkrow?

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
Honchkrow has a lot of endurance and never showed signs of fatigue on screen,it defeated gym leader Maylene's Meditate & Machoke with ease,creamed Ash's Turtwig/Grotle twice,KOed a previous champion's Dragonite,and showed no fatigue from Staraptor's Close Combat during a pokeringer.

  • Super Luck increases critical hit ratio
  • Sky Attack increases critical hit ratio & can cause flinching
  • Night Slash increases critical hit ratio & can cause flinching
  • Dark Pulse can cause flinching
  • Haze erases any status changes
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
KOed a previous champion's Dragonite when did this happen?
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
KOed a previous champion's Dragonite when did this happen?

Lol that was only the “Champion” of a small local Poke Ringer competition. Later on in the same episode it couldn’t even KO Staravia/Staraptor despite landing several hits.
 
Paul’s Honchkrow only beat dragonite because he hit its weak spot( it was stated that the area between the wings is weak), and also it was a critical hit(super luck)
 

Genaller

Silver Soul

Oh really why don’t you do a poll now and see who comes out on top if you’re so confident. Face it; Froslass offers far better team synergy particularly in conjunction with Drapion and pushed the same Pikachu who went on to trade even blows with flippin Electivire. Honchkrow in the mean time would struggle agaisnt even Staraptor. Matter of fact I’m not convinced if Honchkrow would even be above Talonflame.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
When it comes down to Froslass the only redeeming qualities about it is that it knows a status move in hail and the ability snow cloak,the thing with that is it's not always gonna bail it out in battles.

Eventually it will get tagged which is what happened when it faced Ash's Pikachu,it only took 1 Iron Tail and 1 Volt Tackle to knock it out,a high to mid tier 2 pokemon is doing much better than that.

Magmortar who I have as a tier 2 took a hydro cannon from Barry's Empoleon without fainting,Froslass at the least is getting KOed and that is because Magmortar is a tank and Froslass is not.

Honchkrow made the best of what little screen time or opponent it was given and 9 times out of 10 it got the job done and pretty easily might I add,there was no time where it showed signs of fatigue.

I find it very hard to believe that Froslass can pull off the same feats as Honchkrow especially if it doesn't have Hail or Snow Cloak,if anything it would expose Froslass's physical weaknesses.

Just because Froslass had the luxury of battling on screen at the league does not necessarily make it superior to one that wasn't shown on screen at the league (Honchkrow,Torterra,Hariyama,Weavile,Gliscor,Nidoking)

Let's take the Pikachu/Froslass battle into context,Froslass went up against a Pikachu that wasn't in it's Hax form,if Froslass is so powerful then it should have defeated or tied with Pikachu but it didn't,it only took Iron Tail and Volt Tackle for it to be KOed.

I could very well see Honchkrow doing better than Froslass did regardless of type disadvantage,if Paul we're to keep it in battle and not switch out he could just rely on Night Slash/Dark Pulse like he did with his Elekid against Roark's pokemon,Honchkrow at best is beating or drawing with Ash's Pikachu when it's in it's normal form.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
It would be effective against the vast majority of opponents.

Not quite. Froslass is only vulnerable when and right after she launches her own attacks (read post 3196 of the vs thread); however, if the Pokémon were already Poisoned or Burned then she wouldn’t need to bother attacking and can just focus on evasion. Why would a mid t-2 do better than that?

See here you’re just flat out wrong. SL Paul Pikachu > Barry’s Empoleon. Proof: Barry’s Empoleon got demolished by Electivire without dealing any damage whereas SL Paul Pikachu was able to deal damage against and trade blows with Electivire while in a weakened state and unable to use Electric moves (note that I’m talking about pre Motordrive activation).

It was having a tough time with a mid t-3 like Staraptor; this point is irrefutable. Even if Honchkrow was stronger there’s an upper to how much better than Staraptor Honchkrow could have been.

WTF is this? Of course a Pokémon won’t look as impressive without it’s core battle style! Let’s see could Froslass beat Grotle with relative ease? Yes! Could Froslass best 2 of Maylene’s Pokémon? Yes (this is trivially true since Ghost is immune to fighting)! Could it OHK that Pokeringer Dragonite? Yes (don’t see why it couldn’t with a quad effective Ice Beam)! Seriously what has Honchkrow done that Froslass couldn’t do? Matter of fact I highly doubt Honchkrow could have pushed SL Paul Pikachu to the degree that Froslass did.

Okay I’ve never disagreed with that statement.

A Pikachu that was still good enough to go toe to toe with Electivire while in a weakened state pre Volt Tackle folly. Then again maybe you just don’t think Electivire was all that good....

Yeah no... SL Paul Pikachu would beat it upper Low to lower Mid diff at best.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
It would be effective against the vast majority of opponents.

Yeah against opponents tier 3 level or below,it gets more tricky in the tier 2 range,tier 1 or higher is out of the question.

Not quite. Froslass is only vulnerable when and right after she launches her own attacks (read post 3196 of the vs thread); however, if the Pokémon were already Poisoned or Burned then she wouldn’t need to bother attacking and can just focus on evasion. Why would a mid t-2 do better than that?

Snow Cloak ability ended when the sky cleared so it's still going to be vulnerable to attacks,a mid tier 2 like Ash's Bulbasaur isn't being KOed from just 2 attacks.And whether or not a pokemon is burned/poisoned doesn't always mean it would lose to a pokemon that can disappear.


See here you’re just flat out wrong. SL Paul Pikachu > Barry’s Empoleon. Proof: Barry’s Empoleon got demolished by Electivire without dealing any damage whereas SL Paul Pikachu was able to deal damage against and trade blows with Electivire while in a weakened state and unable to use Electric moves (note that I’m talking about pre Motordrive activation).


It couldn't deal any damage because Paul used the move protect to avoid being damaged by Hydro Cannon,Pikachu is always going to be physically faster and more agile especially when it knows the move Quick Attack,Paul could have used protect whenever he wanted but decided not to,Electivire instead just blocked or countered the attack.But none of this is enough to put Pikachu vastly over Empoleon,especially if it's ability torrent is activated,more than likely Barry trained Empoleon in between it's battle with Pikachu in "Barry's Busting Out All Over" and "Casting a Paul on Barry" so it would be Pikachu=>Empoleon or Pikachu=Empoleon

It was having a tough time with a mid t-3 like Staraptor; this point is irrefutable. Even if Honchkrow was stronger there’s an upper to how much better than Staraptor Honchkrow could have been.

Having a tough time defeating it or having a tough time trying to get the ring?If this was a real battle instead of a pokeringer then it's Honchkrow winning hands down.

WTF is this? Of course a Pokémon won’t look as impressive without it’s core battle style! Let’s see could Froslass beat Grotle with relative ease? Yes! Could Froslass best 2 of Maylene’s Pokémon? Yes (this is trivially true since Ghost is immune to fighting)! Could it OHK that Pokeringer Dragonite? Yes (don’t see why it couldn’t with a quad effective Ice Beam)!

Physically Froslass can't take that much damage so it would have to hurry up and sweep Grotle,I could only see it easily beating Turtwig.Froslass easily beating Maylene's 2 pokemon?Maybe.Froslass OHK Dragonite?No it doesn't have Super Luck or any moves that increase the critical hit ratio,ice beam only has a chance of freezing it's target so it's going to take more than 1 move to take it out and even that's a stretch since it's physically not that powerful.

Seriously what has Honchkrow done that Froslass couldn’t do?

Defeat 2 of Maylene's pokemon,KO Ash's Grotle twice,KO a Dragonite in one blow.

Matter of fact I highly doubt Honchkrow could have pushed SL Paul Pikachu to the degree that Froslass did.

Why not?It has the physical capabilities of doing so and easily got the job done in 90 percent of the battles it was in on screen so that implies that it can handle more than what was thrown in front of it.

A Pikachu that was still good enough to go toe to toe with Electivire while in a weakened state pre Volt Tackle folly. Then again maybe you just don’t think Electivire was all that good....

This only further proves that Froslass is nowhere in the tier 2,not sure what Electivire has to do with this,it did what Froslass couldn't do and that's win.


Yeah no... SL Paul Pikachu would beat it upper Low to lower Mid diff at best.

Because of type advantage or because you think Pikachu is ten times more powerful?
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Yeah no, there's no way SL Paul Pikachu is on par with Barry's Empoleon. Empoleon counld hardly do anything even after Torrent activated.

SL Paul Pikachu didn't need any ability activated to trade even blows, deal damage and battle on an even ground which Empoleon couldn't even do with Torrent activated.

And how is Bulbasaur a 'Mid Tier 2' after its performance against Brandon, the strongest Frontier Brain? Yeah nice joke.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Yeah no, there's no way SL Paul Pikachu is on par with Barry's Empoleon. Empoleon counld hardly do anything even after Torrent activated.

SL Paul Pikachu didn't need any ability activated to trade even blows, deal damage and battle on an even ground which Empoleon couldn't even do with Torrent activated.

And how is Bulbasaur a 'Mid Tier 2' after its performance against Brandon, the strongest Frontier Brain? Yeah nice joke.

Didn't pikachu defeated empoleon two times, that was also mid region pikachu not the end region one so you can guess the difference between them.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Didn't pikachu defeated empoleon two times, that was also mid region pikachu not the end region one so you can guess the difference between them.

Empoleon was honestly above the likes of Magmortar and maybe Normal Ursaring(with Guts) but no way it was on Pikachu's level in the Sinnoh League.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
Empoleon was honestly above the likes of Magmortar and maybe Normal Ursaring(with Guts) but no way it was on Pikachu's level in the Sinnoh League.

Which Pikachu are we talking about here?

Yeah no, there's no way SL Paul Pikachu is on par with Barry's Empoleon. Empoleon counld hardly do anything even after Torrent activated.

SL Paul Pikachu didn't need any ability activated to trade even blows, deal damage and battle on an even ground which Empoleon couldn't even do with Torrent activated.



Doesn't matter,from eye test and powerscaling SL Pikachu is equal or better to Empoleon.

And how is Bulbasaur a 'Mid Tier 2' after its performance against Brandon, the strongest Frontier Brain? Yeah nice joke.

All Bulbasaur managed to do was defeat Dusclops then draw with Solrock,it did the same thing previously at the Johto League against Jackson's pokemon.Having Bulbasaur in a high tier 2 would mean that it would be as powerful as Ash's Swellow/Krookodile-Paul's Magmortar/Honchkrow.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Which Pikachu are we talking about here?

Pikachu against Paul, not Tobias. Electivire wasn't able to dominate Pikachu until it got the boost from Motordrive.

Empoleon, even with Torrent, couldn't lay a scratch.

Doesn't matter,from eye test and powerscaling SL Pikachu is equal or better to Empoleon.
How can you say that? Empoleon was getting dominated throughout the battle, which pushed it to activate Torrent. And even after Torrent activated, it didn't change anything.

When was Electivire dominating Pikachu prior to activating Motordrive.

All Bulbasaur managed to do was defeat Dusclops then draw with Solrock,it did the same thing previously at the Johto League against Jackson's pokemon.Having Bulbasaur in a high tier 2 would mean that it would be as powerful as Ash's Swellow/Krookodile-Paul's Magmortar/Honchkrow.

How are the Pokemon owned by the strongest FB on par with the Pokemon owned by Jackson? What did Swellow/Magmortar/Honchkrow do that was better than KO'ing 2 Pokemon the strongest FB?
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
Pikachu against Paul, not Tobias. Electivire wasn't able to dominate Pikachu until it got the boost from Motordrive.
That's only because they're both electric types so it isn't going to be as easy for either side so the only offensive move it could really rely on is Brick Break

Empoleon, even with Torrent, couldn't lay a scratch.
Pikachu doesn't have any defensive moves,the only advantage Pikachu has over Empoleon is speed so it would have to be careful not to get hit by a hydro cannon powered up by the ability torrent.

And how is Bulbasaur a 'Mid Tier 2' after its performance against Brandon, the strongest Frontier Brain? Yeah nice joke.

All Bulbasaur managed to do was defeat Dusclops then draw with Solrock,it did the same thing previously at the Johto League against Jackson's pokemon.Having Bulbasaur in a high tier 2 would mean that it would be as powerful as Ash's Swellow/Krookodile-Paul's Magmortar/Honchkrow.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
That's only because they're both electric types so it isn't going to be as easy for either side so the only offensive move it could really rely on is Brick Break
You do realise that was also Pikachu's disadvantage, right? Due to Electivire having Motordrive+being resistant to Electric type moves Pikachu's Electric type moves weren't an option as well. While against Emopeon, Electric type moves would be SE.


Pikachu doesn't have any defensive moves,the only advantage Pikachu has over Empoleon is speed so it would have to be careful not to get hit by a hydro cannon powered up by the ability torrent.
Yeah, so with superior speed there's nothing stopping Pikachu to dodge Hydro Cannon and then finish off Empoleon like Electivire.

EDIT: Answered the Bulbasaur point in the previous post of mine(EDITED IT).
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Hardcore Paul Fan
How can you say that? Empoleon was getting dominated throughout the battle, which pushed it to activate Torrent. And even after Torrent activated, it didn't change anything.

It got hit by Thunder Punch,Giga Impact(A very powerful move),and then Thunder but tbh it shouldn't have been able to use another move after using Giga Impact.

You do realise that was also Pikachu's disadvantage, right? Due to Electivire having Motordrive+being resistant to Electric type moves Pikachu's Electric type moves weren't an option as well. While against Emopeon, Electric type moves would be SE.

Both were having a hard time dominating,the only moves Pikachu could use were Iron Tail and Quick Attack.

How are the Pokemon owned by the strongest FB on par with the Pokemon owned by Jackson?
It defeated Jackson's Magneton and then tied with his ace Meganium,I don't have Dusclops or Solrock over Meganium,and before you say Dusclops defeated Charizard,it was nerfed beyond belief just to give Pikachu the DEM treatment against Regice.

It's rather absurd that the same Charizard that defeated 3 of Gary's pokemon(including Blastoise) and outlasted an Articuno would lose to the likes of a Dusclops,that would mean Dusclops could pull off the same feats as Charizard and I highly doubt that.

What did Swellow/Magmortar/Honchkrow do that was better than KO'ing 2 Pokemon the strongest FB?

Swellow knocked out 2 pokemon in two different full battles against Tyson/Katie making it the MVP of the Hoenn League.In Magmortar's/Honchkrow's case it's not necessarily what they did but what they were capable of doing.

Bulbasaur could easily do what Honchkrow did throughout DP but we never got see the full extent or limit to Honchkrow or even Magmortar's capabilities in battle,that implies that they can pull off even better feats than what they were given on screen.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Yeah against opponents tier 3 level or below,it gets more tricky in the tier 2 range,tier 1 or higher is out of the question.
Really cuz it was giving a Tier-1 caliber Pikachu (based on the Electivire feat) a tough time that too without him being Poisoned or Burned.




Snow Cloak ability ended when the sky cleared so it's still going to be vulnerable to attacks,a mid tier 2 like Ash's Bulbasaur isn't being KOed from just 2 attacks.And whether or not a pokemon is burned/poisoned doesn't always mean it would lose to a pokemon that can disappear.

Sure it does; however, the combined chip damage from Hail + Poison/Burn by that time would be considerable (over 60% if we used in game calculations though to low ball let’s say about half of the Pokémon’s health would be gone and remember this is not including any of Froslass’s offensive moves). I’ve already explained how Bulbasaur is far above mid t-2 due to the Brandon feat several times. In summation Dusclops survived 4 iterations of Leech Seed (LS) draining and 1 iteration of Leech Seed draining takes away 1/8th of the foe’s max health hence Dusclops lost 4 * 1/8 = 1/2 of its max health to LS; however, it still took a Solarbeam afterwards (not to mention a Razor Leaf prior) to finish Dusclops off meaning that Bulbasaur did over half the work in defeating the Pokémon who was capable of beating BF Charizard (high t-1). Assume that Charizard being distracted allowed Shadow Punch to be a crit and hence deal twice the damage (this point applies to gens 2 - 5 and will be important later as well). Regardless of how much health Charizard was at, having over half health left prior to the Seismic Toss folly indicates that Brandon’s Dusclops was an incredibly strong Pokémon (easily t-1 and perhaps even on the upper end). I wonder if you can reason out why the above conclusion is true without me explaining it to you :). Being able to accomplish this in addition to then tying with another Pokémon of the strongest Frontier Brain (who started at full health and stamina) is indisputably worthy of placing him in Ash’s TOP 10 (he’d be 8 on my list above Heracross and Swellow).




It couldn't deal any damage because Paul used the move protect to avoid being damaged by Hydro Cannon,Pikachu is always going to be physically faster and more agile especially when it knows the move Quick Attack,Paul could have used protect whenever he wanted but decided not to,Electivire instead just blocked or countered the attack.But none of this is enough to put Pikachu vastly over Empoleon,especially if it's ability torrent is activated,more than likely Barry trained Empoleon in between it's battle with Pikachu in "Barry's Busting Out All Over" and "Casting a Paul on Barry" so it would be Pikachu=>Empoleon or Pikachu=Empoleon
Pikachu has beaten Empoleon on 2 separate occasions (Twin Leaf Fesitval). This in conjunction with how both performed agaisnt Electivire makes the probability that SL Paul Pikachu > Empoleon overwhelmingly high. Electivire got damaged by Quick Attack and Paul couldn’t do anything because he couldn’t react in-time since he couldn’t predict that Pikachu would climb the battlefield debris to get the “high ground”. Also lol you can’t just indefinitely spam Protect. SL Paul Pikachu is significantly stronger than Empoleon and by stronger I mean has a higher battle viabilty (a combination of every factor relevant in a battle) which is clear given Pikachu’s relatively superior performance agaisnt Electivire while in a weakened state. What I’m getting at is that the Pokémon who got Pikachu to this weakened state (Froslass) must be iimpressive in its own right and as I’ve already explained Froslass wasn’t able to tap into her true battle viability since she didn’t face a Poisoned/Burned opponent.



Having a tough time defeating it or having a tough time trying to get the ring?If this was a real battle instead of a pokeringer then it's Honchkrow winning hands down.
The Pokeringer battle makes it clear that Staraptor is capable of A) tankingseveral attacks from Honchkrow and B) causing significant damage with its own attacks meaning that Staraptor could certainly give Honchkrow a competitive match if this were a real battle, so even if Honchkrow is in fact stronger and would win such a battle, there’s an upper bound to how much better than Staraptor Honchkrow could have been (I hope that at least this point has sunk into your thick skull since I’m tiered of repeating myself).



Physically Froslass can't take that much damage so it would have to hurry up and sweep Grotle,I could only see it easily beating Turtwig.Froslass easily beating Maylene's 2 pokemon?Maybe.Froslass OHK Dragonite?No it doesn't have Super Luck or any moves that increase the critical hit ratio,ice beam only has a chance of freezing it's target so it's going to take more than 1 move to take it out and even that's a stretch since it's physically not that powerful.
Why would any of Grotle’s Grass Attacks deal anywhere near the same damage as SL Paul Pikachu’s Iron Tail (SE move) or Volt Tackle (strongest move)? Also Froslass is immune to Rock Climb hence that tactic is out of the question. I’d love to read how you think Grotle could put up any semblance of a good fight. What part of “Ghost is immune to Fighting” (hence severely limiting what Maylene’s Pokémon can do) do you not understand? Yeah Ice Beam is quadruple effective on Dragonite whereas a crit only increases the damage 2-fold, so unless Honchkrow has over twice the power of Froslass then nah Froslass is certainly capable of OHKing the Dragonite (this point isn’t even all that important since offensive power is only one factor contributing to overall battle viability and isn’t even necessarily the most important one).



Defeat 2 of Maylene's pokemon,KO Ash's Grotle twice,KO a Dragonite in one blow.
Read above.



Why not?It has the physical capabilities of doing so and easily got the job done in 90 percent of the battles it was in on screen so that implies that it can handle more than what was thrown in front of it.
Not being able to KO Staravia/Staraptor despite landing several hits and being signficnalty damaged by Staraptor’s attacks suggests otherwise. Also it’s never beaten a truly “good” Pokemon (t-2 or above).



This only further proves that Froslass is nowhere in the tier 2,not sure what Electivire has to do with this,it did what Froslass couldn't do and that's win.
Wow Electivire beat a Pokémon that was already fairly low in terms of both health and stamina (yet still managed to both damage and trade even blows with it) and that too only after having its ability activated, truly it deserves full credit for the KO (sarcasm). Also read above.




Because of type advantage or because you think Pikachu is ten times more powerful?

I don’t care if it was a type inverse match (giving Honchkrow the advantage); SL Paul Pikachu would still beat Honchkrow upper Low to lower Mid diff at best and Peakachu would absolutely annihilate that overrated crow.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Which Pikachu are we talking about here?





Doesn't matter,from eye test and powerscaling SL Pikachu is equal or better to Empoleon.



All Bulbasaur managed to do was defeat Dusclops then draw with Solrock,it did the same thing previously at the Johto League against Jackson's pokemon.Having Bulbasaur in a high tier 2 would mean that it would be as powerful as Ash's Swellow/Krookodile-Paul's Magmortar/Honchkrow.

Ash's krokodile/swellow are definitely superior to magmortar/honchkrow. Especially in case of swellow whose feats far surpass honchkrow who struggled vs a newly evolved staraptor.Swellow also have more experience than honchkrow.Magmortar also didn't do much except for one shotting a skarmory. Magmar did beat maylene's lucario but it couldn't scratch registeel even with a type advantage and got scared of it, the registeel which torkoal was able to bring in on to his knees.
As for honhkrow vs froslass I would say both are nearly equal with honchkrow haviing an edge, but froslass performance vs pikachu was much better than honchkrow would have given pikachu had they both have a battle.
 
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