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What's so special about the Ash/Paul rivalry?

Halolady

walking on eggshells
The point of battling is to know themselves and each other, better oneself not just as a battler but mostly as a person, and strengthen the bond with one's own Pokemon, not unlike martial arts. Paul only cares about power.
Problem is, if the whole essence of battling is to strengthen the bond with one's pokemon, then why are you so against the idea of Paul and his pokemon forming a bond based on them sharing similar mindsets - i.e. Being power-hungry in general? Why does power-hunger immediately equate to one not being able to bond with their pokemon - especially if it is a mutual desire shared between trainer and pokemon?

If you mean Horde Battles, there is a huge difference: Horde Battles are a bunch of wild Pokemon ganging up to protect themselves against what they perceive to be a threat. Wild Pokemon don't care about fairness, and they shouldn't, either. They are defending themselves and their comrades justly.

Paul had his Pokemon beat up Chimchar, who was weaker than them and too afraid to fight back to boot, just because he wanted Chimchar to use Blaze. He considered Chimchar nothing but a weapon to crush his opponents and get all the glory for himself, and he damaged him both physically and psychologically for his own selfish desires.
"For his own selfish desires"...? If memory serves, being able to use Blaze and become powerful was something Chimchar desired as well. Paul asked it that before capturing it. He then merely used the method that worked best for the rest of his team (i.e. His harsh training regimen) to bring its' ability out. Whether the training regimen he used itself was too harsh or not is a pointless debate (since it's already clear that we will never agree with each other on that), but the essence here is that he was not using Chimchar as a tool to further his own desires - he made sure beforehand that Chimchar's desires syncs up with his beforehand before taking any action with it.

and he had taken enough damage that Nurse Joy told Paul that Chimchar wouldn't be in shape for fighting the next day. That's why it's a big deal.
Right. Forgot 'bout that. Now I understand why that's such a big deal to you guys.

So, let me put it this way: if I see a guy abusing a puppy or a kitten, am I "butting in on things that are none of my business" if I stop him before he really hurts the poor thing? No, and neither was Ash.
There is a huge difference between abusing an animal and what Paul did to Chimchar. It's all about the context - hurting an animal on purpose means that you are abusing it because the animal in question is legitimately hurt in the process; i.e. It doesn't gain anything from being hurt like that, it's just unessecarily hurt, period. In Chimchar's case though, all of that "beating up"(as you'd put it) it received could have actually benefitted it as pokemon, unlike animals, were already meant to take such attacks in the first place, and must only further enhance their abilities to do so by toughening themselves up in the midst of challenging situations, like what Paul put Chimchar through. Yes, like you said, Chimchar did get hurt in the process, but that's more of a side-effect of a practice that could've benefited it but didn't in the end.

If I had to pin the blame on Paul when it comes to any of this, I'd sooner accuse him of not apologizing to Chimchar rather than what he did to it.

Abusing Pokemon =/= abusing Pokemon. Lol, but no.
If you're implying that Damian's and Shamus's acts are merely "abuse", then you're quite frankly, well, wrong. What they did to their pokemon extends far beyond abuse (especially in Shamus's case) - they had purposefully placed their pokemon in a disadvantageous situation that could easily kill them had they not been saved. They weren't even mistreating them; they were outright murdering them. And in Shamus's case, it was not done with the intention of benefiting it at all. How anyone can deem Paul's case to be on the level of that is beyond me.

And in the case of Paul, he was not abusing Chimchar either. If hurting the pokemon in question is done with the intention of buffing it up at the trainer's and the pokemon's shared desire (and the way to do so is not entirely stupid and obviously fruitless like is the case with Damian's), then it does not constitutes as abuse - as the whole essence of abuse constitutes as unessecarily hurting the victim in a manner of which it is entirely unbeneficial to him/her. It's all about the intention here.

Except that Chimchar's reaction was not an isolated case,
Except that you can say the same about his pokemon cheering for him as well, yet every Paul detractor on here seems to dismiss it. All throughout the series, his pokemon were all shown to be in sync with his training methods - they performed at their best under Paul's training methods, which is what made Paul such a tough opponent for Ash to defeat early on. Hence, it can be inferred (like how you inferred the flinching to be a sign of abuse) that his other pokemon were perfectly content under his care like any other pokemon out there with a compatible trainer. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that his pokemon would be cheering for him - as they are completely in sync with each other.

Paul having his starter groomed was an isolated case, but an important one - it was there to shed more light on the way he treats his other teammates when they are not engaging in battle. There was nothing beforehand that went against him having his starter groomed (i.e. Nothing that implied he actively deprived them of occasional relaxation), hence him doing so cannot be rendered as a "weak, last-minute insertion", as nothing that came before it contradicts it.

You say that us Paul haters only see what WE want to see, but I can say the same about you. You ignore or downplay Paul's negative qualities, and whenever he displays some basic decency (which, for all I could see, could very well be self-serving), you make it stand out all the more.
The reason why I "ignore or downplay Paul's negative qualities" is because I genuinely don't see what you Paul haters see as his "negative qualities" in the first place. The three main points that constantly gets pitted against him is that he is 1), abusive, 2), power-hungry, and 3), condescending. As is illustrated by my arguments above, I already don't see the first one in him, and I don't agree with the second one being a negative quality at all, hence leaving me with only number 3 (which I will admit to). It's all about personal interpretation here. As for me playing up his moments of decency, I was just bringing up instances like that to counter all the arguments made against him. In reality, I see such instances as very insignificant to the overall scheme of things.

What I take issue with Paul haters, though, is that none of you ever bother to even take into account any instances of decency that was shown of him in the anime. And whenever they are brought up, the haters either slather them up with any kind of excuse they can find ("Stockholm syndrome" is my particular favorite, though note that I'm not just targeting it towards you), or dismiss them entirely by waving them off as faulty writing on the writer's part. It probably doesn't come off this way for the Paul haters, but for people who genuinely enjoyed the rivalry and Paul's character in general (or, at least, me), it honestly comes off as very biased-sounding.It's as if you're criticizing him based on the image you have of him in your heads; and not on the things that were actually presented to us. It's one thing to deem Paul's actions on the show to be entirely wrong (which is perfectly fine), but to deny entirely the possibility that Paul may have had some moments of genuine decency (as is portrayed in the anime) by making up baseless accusations or faulting the writers for inserting such instances into the anime? It's honestly pretty annoying. Not to mention it detracts from a good argument as well.
 
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LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
Him thanking electivire is natural progression. Compare his treatment of maylene (who he swept) to Barry (who he also swept.) He clearly became nicer after the acuity battle.

Which was completely out of the blue and not justifiable with any natural progression.
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
Problem is, if the whole essence of battling is to strengthen the bond with one's pokemon, then why are you so against the idea of Paul and his pokemon forming a bond based on them sharing similar mindsets - i.e. Being power-hungry in general? Why does power-hunger immediately equate to one not being able to bond with their pokemon - especially if it is a mutual desire shared between trainer and pokemon?

I really didn't see Paul trying to create any bond with his Pokemon - the way I see it, he just cared that they'd win battles for him.


"For his own selfish desires"...? If memory serves, being able to use Blaze and become powerful was something Chimchar desired as well. Paul asked it that before capturing it. He then merely used the method that worked best for the rest of his team (i.e. His harsh training regimen) to bring its' ability out. Whether the training regimen he used itself was too harsh or not is a pointless debate (since it's already clear that we will never agree with each other on that), but the essence here is that he was not using Chimchar as a tool to further his own desires - he made sure beforehand that Chimchar's desires syncs up with his beforehand before taking any action with it.

Yeah, because he cared SO much about the desires of Ursaring, Stantler, those three Starlies or Azumarill...


There is a huge difference between abusing an animal and what Paul did to Chimchar...

I honestly don't see any difference.


And in the case of Paul, he was not abusing Chimchar either. If hurting the pokemon in question is done with the intention of buffing it up at the trainer's and the pokemon's shared desire (and the way to do so is not entirely stupid and obviously fruitless like is the case with Damian's), then it does not constitutes as abuse - as the whole essence of abuse constitutes as unessecarily hurting the victim in a manner of which it is entirely unbeneficial to him/her. It's all about the intention here.

Your definition of abuse seems to be completely different from mine.


Except that you can say the same about his pokemon cheering for him as well, yet every Paul detractor on here seems to dismiss it.

Or see it as bad writing, which I do.


All throughout the series, his pokemon were all shown to be in sync with his training methods - they performed at their best under Paul's training methods, which is what made Paul such a tough opponent for Ash to defeat early on.
Hence, it can be inferred (like how you inferred the flinching to be a sign of abuse) that his other pokemon were perfectly content under his care like any other pokemon out there with a compatible trainer. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that his pokemon would be cheering for him - as they are completely in sync with each other.

That, or simple writer's bias trying to justify Paul's (in my opinion) unjustifiable methods, by coming up with an excuse that runs counter to the values that the whole Pokemon franchise is about.


Paul having his starter groomed was an isolated case, but an important one - it was there to shed more light on the way he treats his other teammates when they are not engaging in battle. There was nothing beforehand that went against him having his starter groomed (i.e. Nothing that implied he actively deprived them of occasional relaxation), hence him doing so cannot be rendered as a "weak, last-minute insertion", as nothing that came before it contradicts it.


The reason why I "ignore or downplay Paul's negative qualities" is because I genuinely don't see what you Paul haters see as his "negative qualities" in the first place. The three main points that constantly gets pitted against him is that he is 1), abusive, 2), power-hungry, and 3), condescending. As is illustrated by my arguments above, I already don't see the first one in him, and I don't agree with the second one being a negative quality at all, hence leaving me with only number 3 (which I will admit to). It's all about personal interpretation here. As for me playing up his moments of decency, I was just bringing up instances like that to counter all the arguments made against him. In reality, I see such instances as very insignificant to the overall scheme of things.

What I take issue with Paul haters, though, is that none of you ever bother to even take into account any instances of decency that was shown of him in the anime. And whenever they are brought up, the haters either slather themup with any kind of excuse they can find ("Stockholm syndrome" is my particular favorite, though note that I'm not just targeting it towards you), or dismiss them entirely by waving them off as faulty writing on the writer's part. It probably doesn't come off this way for the Paul haters, but for people who genuinely enjoyed the rivalry and Paul's character in general (or, at least, me), it honestly comes off as very biased-sounding.It's as if you're criticizing him based on the image you have of him in your heads; and not on the things that were actually presented to us. It's one thing to deem Paul's actions on the show to be entirely wrong (which is perfectly fine), but to deny entirely the possibility that Paul may have had some moments of genuine decency (as is portrayed in the anime) by making up baseless accusations or faulting the writers for inserting such instances into the anime? It's honestly pretty annoying. Not to mention it detracts from a good argument as well.


I honestly don't see the point in continuing this back-and-forth any further. We simply see things too differently to be able to agree. Certain things that you don't see as such a big deal is instead very serious to me, and vice versa.
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
His last appearance before that had him saving Ash's life and wanting another battle with him.

While doing nothing to stop Team Rocket BEFORE that.
 

Halolady

walking on eggshells
I honestly don't see the point in continuing this back-and-forth any further. We simply see things too differently to be able to agree. Certain things that you don't see as such a big deal is instead very serious to me, and vice versa.
Right. It's going nowhere fast.

It was a fun debate, though - thanks for your time.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
  • Most bada** rival? Paul
  • Who pushed Ash the most? Paul
  • Most competent rival? Paul
  • Most serious rival? Paul
  • Which rival has 6+ pokemon powerhouses/tanks? Paul
  • Which rival sent Team Rocket blasting off single handely? Paul
  • Which rival made it down a giant cliff without hurting themself? Paul
  • Most dark rival? Paul
  • Most intense rival? Paul
  • Which rival captured powerful pokemon on screen? Paul
  • Which rival won in a gym battle on screen? Paul
  • Which rival has another trainer that's a fan of them? Paul
  • Which rival was shown training their pokemon on screen? Paul
  • Which rival made Ash feel depressed? Paul
  • Which rival appeared on screen the most? Paul
  • Which rival has as much experience as Ash? Paul

-------->>>>>>>NEXT
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
[*]Which rival got his a** handed to him 6-0 twice?
Paul

Yes because Gary/Trip can do better against one of the strongest trainers in the world.

Tell me exactly what Trip/Gary are gonna do against Cynthia's Garchomp and Brandon's 3 Regis which were constantly being switched out.

These are the only losses Paul received before the SL,you should also take into context who he lost to as well,Gary was eliminated before Ash in the Indigo League,Trip lost twice in the first round of the Club Battle Tournament/Clubsplosion,the trainers that defeated him were Cilan/Bianca who are far from being on the top ten of the strongest trainers in the pokemon anime universe.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Only losses before SL? Sure they were onscreen losses, but it is well known that Paul has competed in the Kanto, Johto and Hoenn Leagues as well, and failed to win any of them. For all you know, he could've lost in the early rounds in those Leagues as well.

With all the big talk Paul does, you'd think he'd have actually accomplished something, and hence looks down on Ash, but nope, he hasn't.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Only losses before SL? Sure they were onscreen losses, but it is well known that Paul has competed in the Kanto, Johto and Hoenn Leagues as well, and failed to win any of them. For all you know, he could've lost in the early rounds in those Leagues as well.

With all the big talk Paul does, you'd think he'd have actually accomplished something, and hence looks down on Ash, but nope, he hasn't.

Well, after Alain, Paul is definitely Ash's strongest rival. The way he treated and looked upon his Pokemon is definitely condemnable, but he's one of the best tacticians and strategists in battling.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Well, after Alain, Paul is definitely Ash's strongest rival. The way he treated and looked upon his Pokemon is definitely condemnable, but he's one of the best tacticians and strategists in battling.

Yeah sure his way of handling Pokémon is condemnable, but that wasn't really my main issue with Paul. It was more about his attitude in general. Like what reason does he have for his arrogance? Clearly he doesn't have any major feats to his name to be that arrogant and to be looking down on Ash. I'm not denying that the Ash vs Paul rivalry is the best, and that Paul is a very good trainer too. I just have issues with his character and why he's so.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Yeah sure his way of handling Pokémon is condemnable, but that wasn't really my main issue with Paul. It was more about his attitude in general. Like what reason does he have for his arrogance? Clearly he doesn't have any major feats to his name to be that arrogant and to be looking down on Ash. I'm not denying that the Ash vs Paul rivalry is the best, and that Paul is a very good trainer too. I just have issues with his character and why he's so.

I think Paul's arrogance was to make him an antithesis/opposite of Ash, who treats every opponent with respect.
 

UnbelievableUrsula

Cute and Creepy!
Oh, I understand what they were TRYING to do with Paul. The problem is, I think they did it in a piss-poor way. If they wanted to show "different but still valid" ways of handling Pokemon, I can point you to AJ or Alain, who are not exactly super friendly but still care for their Pokemon and behave like actual human being instead of one-note abusive drones.

True. I liked Alain as a rival, but the problem with him was that he was used in his own story as a protagonist and made his way over to Ash's as a league rival more so than a regular regional rival like the others.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Only losses before SL? Sure they were onscreen losses, but it is well known that Paul has competed in the Kanto, Johto and Hoenn Leagues as well, and failed to win any of them. For all you know, he could've lost in the early rounds in those Leagues as well.

With all the big talk Paul does, you'd think he'd have actually accomplished something, and hence looks down on Ash, but nope, he hasn't.

I should be the last guy that you should be telling this to.

He could've been a different person earlier on in his journey and grew to become the trainer he later became because I can tell you right now the Paul that we witnessed throughout DP would have no problem winning any leagues unless it involves some hax trainer like Tobias.
 

BladexFade

Well-Known Member
"For his own selfish desires"...? If memory serves, being able to use Blaze and become powerful was something Chimchar desired as well. Paul asked it that before capturing it. He then merely used the method that worked best for the rest of his team (i.e. His harsh training regimen) to bring its' ability out. Whether the training regimen he used itself was too harsh or not is a pointless debate (since it's already clear that we will never agree with each other on that), but the essence here is that he was not using Chimchar as a tool to further his own desires - he made sure beforehand that Chimchar's desires syncs up with his beforehand before taking any action with it.
Everything — this is where many people tend to ignore. And even if Paul did abuse Chimchar, people tend to forget that just as there are many different trainers out there, the same applies to Pokemon too. All of the Pokemon Paul caught were of the aggressive/bully type (Electabuzz, Urasing) and seemed genuinely content with Paul's way of doing things. It seemed to me, and by the looks of it, that the only thing they wanted was to get as strong as they could be and believed Paul was a trainer capable of helping them reach their goal. Paul's training style isn't different from what Coaches treat their players in sports, whether its basketball or football etc. Although not all players will respond to his type of training, many of them will still respect and love their coach as if they have the strong desire to improve. It is just a different style that works for some, and not for others; in Chimchar's case, that's where he comes in. To each and their own.
 
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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Only losses before SL? Sure they were onscreen losses, but it is well known that Paul has competed in the Kanto, Johto and Hoenn Leagues as well, and failed to win any of them. For all you know, he could've lost in the early rounds in those Leagues as well.

With all the big talk Paul does, you'd think he'd have actually accomplished something, and hence looks down on Ash, but nope, he hasn't.

Yeah if you think about this, before coming back to sinnoh if you look at his team the only true powerhouse he had was torterra. Electivire was still an elekid, Magmortar, Drapion and ursaring weren't even caught back then. Honchkrow was only a murkrow, aggron was at best a lairon and he didn't caught his gliscor until later. He got most of his team after coming back to sinnoh, that makes sense why he lost so many leagues, heck even ash lost 3 leagues in a row with powerhouses like charizard, snorlax, sceptlie, swellow, heracross, glalie, bulbasaur and kingler.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Everything — this is where many people tend to ignore. And even if Paul did abuse Chimchar, people tend to forget that just as there are many different trainers out there, the same applies to Pokemon too. All of the Pokemon Paul caught were of the aggressive/bully type (Electabuzz, Urasing) and seemed genuinely content with Paul's way of doing things. It seemed to me, and by the looks of it, that the only thing they wanted was to get as strong as they could be and believed Paul was a trainer capable of helping them reach their goal. Paul's training style isn't different from what Coaches treat their players in sports, whether its basketball or football etc. Although not all players will respond to his type of training, many of them will still respect and love their coach as if they have the strong desire to improve. It is just a different style that works for some, and not for others; in Chimchar's case, that's where he comes in. To each and their own.

Paul's training method was no different from AJ's during Kanto. Funny no one really ever mentions him considering how strong he was and that he push his Sandshrew beyond its limits to make it stronger. Paul does the same thing and he still made sure his Pokémon were taken well cared. He was harsh but that was his own method of training for his battle style. Paul liked to take an offensive way of batting rather than defensive and there's nothing wrong with that at all. He even said goodbye to Chimchar before releasing it and let it know that he couldn't bring out its true potential. He may not have worded his explaination to Chimchar nicely but he knew he could not do the job. Paul even let it go in the woods with no false hopes like Damien did to Charmander or tying it down like Tepig's original trainer did. Those two trainers also viewed all Pokémon as belongings that could be discarded whenever they pleased which is not what Paul believes in. He likes strong Pokémon but is willing to try and train a Pokémon that has potential but isn't very strong. The Starly he released after catching them wasn't really cruel either as he scanned them with his Dex to read their strength and he never battled with them so they really had no bond at all.
 
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