What's the deal with Smogon?

[Garbodor.]

It depends on the team and how they plan to get the sandstorm out. Out of experience, the majorty of users of that team always had a tyranitar at the front to bring out sandstorm. However, I always had my kingdra with rain dance at the front as well.[\QUOTE]

I'm going to use your argument against you here, majority of the users you face are bad battlers. Firstly, most good battlers would set up sand on the best opportunity to do so, and thanks to Tyranitar's good SpDef or Hippowdon's good defense, doing that is pretty easy. Blindly leading with your weather starter is a bad strategy. Also, Kingdra has to take some damage to set up rain, while Tyranitar can easily switch out to something like ferrothorn that resists water, and come in later and set up sand when it has the opportunity to.

The point is, I made life very hard for them and won most of them time. They still win of course every now and then but that's because my team was not fail proof.
My kingdra knows ice beam which has a 1x effective power against ferrothorn which is not that bad. But I never recall anyone ever using ferrothorn against me. They had tyranitar,excadrill and flygon I think. Sorry I don't remember that well.

As I said, you are the exception, not the rule.

God. I am not saying that is is okay for people to complain if their favourite Pokemon loses. I am saying that they should have a CHANCE to win. Everyone deserves a chance. The match has to be fair.

Pokemon EXISTS SOLELY FOR FUN. It is a GAME, not World War III.

Having fun is a subjective concept. Some people may get fun just from winning and you may get fun just by using their favorite Pokemon.
Just because you want to win using a certain Pokemon does not mean rules should be implemented to help you do that. I am sorry, that's just not logical.
Mew is your favourite which is a powerful pokemon and in fun battles you can use it. But in competitive battle, you should use anypokemon you want as long as it's a legendary.

I respect your point of view. You get fun not from winning but from using a certain Pokemon. That's fine, but in the competitive battles, it's all about testing how good your team is which also reflect how good you are.

 

[Mew The Gato]

The point is, I made life very hard for them and won most of them time. They still win of course every now and then but that's because my team was not fail proof.
My kingdra knows ice beam which has a 1x effective power against ferrothorn which is not that bad. But I never recall anyone ever using ferrothorn against me. They had tyranitar,excadrill and flygon I think. Sorry I don't remember that well.

That is because, on Wi-Fi, everyone cannot just keep breeding and training Pokemon. They have a life. On simulators like Pokemon Showdown, Ferrothorn is so common, almost all of your battles would make life very hard for you.

And Ferrothorn has gigantic Special Defense. Neutral damage against is VERY bad. Not to mention it has 90 Base Attack. Even without investment, it would defeat Kingdra long before vice versa.

 

[Gampi]

1) But Leafeon is outclassed by others. Garchomp? Not so much, at least not in Overused.
2) That is the whole point of it being in Rarelyused, it faints very easily and will almost always be at less than half HP if it survives.

1) Garchomp is OHKOed by Blizzard and most Ice moves though. The only reason why its not "outclassed" is because those that follow the Tiers system don't use most Pokés with Ice moves because they aren't in OU and therefore "aren't useable". tl;dr - Garchomp can be OHKOed with any Ice type.
2) You'd think Smogon would have more respect for the fluffy prehistoric bird, seeing as it is successful in its job as a glass cannon.

 

[T-Bolt]

The point is, I made life very hard for them and won most of them time. They still win of course every now and then but that's because my team was not fail proof.
My kingdra knowns ice beam which has a 1x effective power against ferrothorn which is not that bad. But I never recall anyone ever using ferrothorn against me. They had tyranitar,excadrill and flygon I think. Sorry I don't remember that well.

My point is that most of the people you were battling did not know how to use sand properly, and thus you didn't experience how hard Excadrill actually was to counter. Sandstorm never got predictable and wasn't easy to counter, maybe people just got bored of using sand and moved on. Plus the main reason people started using sandstorm was to use Excadrill. Excadrill wasn't broken in sandstorm, sandstorm got broken with Excadrill.

You still haven't replied to this though-

Regarding legendaries, what I meant by that was a large number of legendaries do not need to be banned. You can say that gengar, Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Ferrothorn, Scizor and several others are stronger when you compare them to other non-legendaries. Does that mean they need to be banned too?

 

[Enjolras]

My favorite Pokemon is Garbodor it's not super strong and I don't use it in a proper battle.
My point is, if you use your favorite Pokemon and you loose then don't complain. It was your choice for using it.

You should always have a balanced team ready for competitive battle. And then you can also have a fun team to play around with for those matches you don't really care if you win or loose and just want to use Garbodor.

But please understand if you use a weedle against a well balanced, strong team of EV,IV trained Pokemon then you should not be surprised if your weedle does not do that well because it's base states are not that great. same with my garbodor.

The point is so that people can win even with their favorite Pokemon. If you get rid of tiers, every battle becomes an OU battle, and everyone will still be using the exact same Pokemon. The rest of the Pokemon are doomed to sit unused, because as AWildMew said, everybody wants to win. However, with the tier system, I can use my favorites, and still win! Say my favorite is Zangoose. Using one would be a joke in OU. Yet, in NU, Zangoose can wreak havoc. Similarly, if my favorite is Shroomish, I can't expect to send him into an unrestricted battle and get a Spore in. That's why we have little cup, so people who like using unevolved pokemon can win. The tier system is set up so everyone can win, while still using their favorites.

 

[T-Bolt]

^exactly

1) Garchomp is OHKOed by Blizzard and most Ice moves though. The only reason why its not "outclassed" is because those that follow the Tiers system don't use most Pokés with Ice moves because they aren't in OU and therefore "aren't useable". tl;dr - Garchomp can be OHKOed with any Ice type.
2) You'd think Smogon would have more respect for the fluffy prehistoric bird, seeing as it is successful in its job as a glass cannon.

1) why the he'll are you talking about Garchomp anyway? Garchomp is only OHKOed by ice type moves, but Leafeon is OHKOed by fire, ice, poison, bug and flying type moves.
2) like I said before, due to priority and Stealth rock being common, Archeops is not a good glass cannon.

 

[Mew The Gato]

The point is, I made life very hard for them and won most of them time. They still win of course every now and then but that's because my team was not fail proof.
My kingdra knows ice beam which has a 1x effective power against ferrothorn which is not that bad. But I never recall anyone ever using ferrothorn against me. They had tyranitar,excadrill and flygon I think. Sorry I don't remember that well.


Having fun is a subjective concept. Some people may get fun just from winning and you may get fun just by using their favorite Pokemon.
Just because you want to win using a certain Pokemon does not mean rules should be implemented to help you do that. I am sorry, that's just not logical.
Mew is your favourite which is a powerful pokemon and in fun battles you can use it. But in competitive battle, you should use anypokemon you want as long as it's a legendary.

I respect your point of view. You get fun not from winning but from using a certain Pokemon. That's fine, but in the competitive battles, it's all about testing how good your team is which also reflect how good you are

Well, no - everyone can have fun if that matches are fair, but not everyone can use a Pokemon to its full potential if it is outclassed. Smogon said Mew is a master of none. Translation: It gets bored too easily, as it cannot be defeated. That is why it is in Underused, because, for example, some Pokemon are better walls or can Baton Pass better. Translation: They do not get bored as easily. So, in Underused, it is not outclassed as much. Translation: It does not get bored as easily. Due to this, it can be used to its full potential and really shine!

1) Garchomp is OHKOed by Blizzard and most Ice moves though. The only reason why its not "outclassed" is because those that follow the Tiers system don't use most Pokés with Ice moves because they aren't in OU and therefore "aren't useable". tl;dr - Garchomp can be OHKOed with any Ice type.
2) You'd think Smogon would have more respect for the fluffy prehistoric bird, seeing as it is successful in its job as a glass cannon.

1) Even though Hail Teams are fairly common, Garchomp is not outclassed or enviable. It is just that awesome. That is why it is at the Overused Tier.
2) It does its job of being pathetic in Overused due to priority, weather and Stealth Rock quite well, indeed. That is what you mean by it being a glass cannon, correct?
Because it does not do a good job of winning. In-Game, yes, but against other players? Nope.

 

[bolter1]

My comment was always the opposite, that you should not expect to defeat a garchomp with likes of weedle.
However, weedle is a bug type and could use it's bug type to hit hydreigon with a super effective STAB move. It's however not strong enough to take on a hyderigon so if you decide to use a weedle then you're just a weak trainer.

This is close enough.
EDIT:
And this one is even with a Weedle. (There is swearing in this one, just so you know.)

 

[Garbodor.]

My point is that most of the people you were battling did not know how to use sand properly, and thus you didn't experience how hard Excadrill actually was to counter. Sandstorm never got predictable and wasn't easy to counter, maybe people just got bored of using sand and moved on. Plus the main reason people started using sandstorm was to use Excadrill. Excadrill wasn't broken in sandstorm, sandstorm got broken with Excadrill.

You still haven't replied to this though-

Yes I am sure they were all incompetent and you're the professional. Their strategy worked in almost all cases except when you have a speedy Pokemon like kingdra at the front ready to counter the sandstorm. In most other cases, they would had had excadrill out in the sandstorm and if you did not have skarmory or something similar then you would had a hard time.

Regarding legendaries, what I meant by that was a large number of legendaries do not need to be banned. You can say that gengar, Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Ferrothorn, Scizor and several others are stronger when you compare them to other non-legendaries. Does that mean they need to be banned too?

I stated already did I not that not all legendary's are super powerful but in general they are over powered in at least on department and usually have a powerful signature move. Those Pokemon you mentioned are strong because you can't just catch them Do you think you can go just go and catch a dragonite or salamance? You need to train their pre-evolution to high levels and work hard to get them. Exactly why are you mentioning ferrothorn? It has a good defence for sure but that's it. There are many non-leg pokemon with great defence.

Edit: it turns out you can get a dragonite now in the wild...this is strange.

 

[Mew The Gato]

Yes I am sure they were all incompetent and you're the professional. Their strategy worked in almost all cases except when you have a speedy Pokemon like kingdra at the front ready to counter the sandstorm. In most other cases, they would had had excadrill out in the sandstorm and if you did not have skarmory or something similar then you would had a hard time.



I started already did I not that not all legendary's are super powerful but in general they are over powered in at least on department and usually have a powerful signature move. Those Pokemon you mentioned are strong because you can't just catch them Do you think you can go just go and catch a dragonite or salamance? You need to train their pre-evolution to high levels and work hard to get them. Exactly why are you mentioning ferrothorn? It has a good defence for sure but that's it. There are many non-leg pokemon with great defence.

Yes, I DID just go and catch a wild Dragonite. In White 2. Recently. You can find them in the water outside Dragonspiral Tower.

See - Pseudo Legendaries, like Dragonite and Salamence has a higher base Stat Total than some legendaries, like the legendary trios. And they outclass many like Regigigas, too. Then why are they not banned, while Regigigas is, on Wi-Fi? The Wi-Fi banning system is not accurate.

 

[Garbodor.]

Yes, I DID just go and catch a wild Dragonite. In White 2.

See - Pseudo Legendaries, like Dragonite and Salamence has a higher base Stat Total than some legendaries, like the legendary trios. And they outclass many like Regigigas, too. Then why are they not banned, while Regigigas is, on Wi-Fi? The Wi-Fi banning system is not accurate.

Okay but that is new. Before if you wanted one you had to level up the pre-evolution and it was not easy. I don't like the idea of being able to catch a dragonite in the wild, it seems they are trying to help you complete the national pokedex easier or something.

This is close enough.
EDIT:
And this one is even with a Weedle. (There is swearing in this one, just so you know.)

He must be using some sort of hack. I don't buy this.
He wiped out an electivire with one bug bite.

 

[T-Bolt]

To win the weather war, you would need to conserve your weather starter, not be foolhardy and send it out at the first opportunity you get. Sending your Weather pokemon out first is probably the easiest way of countering weather, and would definitely not work in almost all cases.

Now, legendaries only learn their best moves when you train them to high levels. Do you think you can just go around catching legendaries with poke balls? I'm sure everyone knows how hard it is to catch a legendary, and that level of effort can be compared to training pare-evo to a high level to evolve it.

Lugia has high defenses, that's it. Cresselia has high defenses, that's it. Uxie too. But you propose to ban them when Ferro's got high defenses and a great typing. If you don't know the usefulness of Ferrothorn, you don't know how to battle competitively.

 

[Mew The Gato]

Okay but that is new. Before if you wanted one you had to level up the pre-evolution and it was not easy. I don't like the idea of being able to catch a dragonite in the wild, it seems they are trying to help you complete the national pokedex easier or something.

A 1% Chance in getting a Dragonite at a surfacing Pokemon, which is fairly rare in itself is not rare enough for you? 8O

We do get a Gible or Dratini for completing a challenge, at the end of which you have to battle a trainer with a Level 80 Latios / Latias (Depending on the version), Dragonite / Garchomp (Depending on the version) and Volcarona. Yes, he uses a LEGENDARY. And the Dratini or Gible we get, depending on the version, is Shiny.

This supports that even Game Freak is starting to think that Legendaries are not so overpowered.

 

[Garbodor.]

To win the weather war, you would need to conserve your weather starter, not be foolhardy and send it out at the first opportunity you get. Sending your Weather pokemon out first is probably the easiest way of countering weather, and would definitely not work in almost all cases.

Now, legendaries only learn their best moves when you train them to high levels. Do you think you can just go around catching legendaries with poke balls? I'm sure everyone knows how hard it is to catch a legendary, and that level of effort can be compared to training pare-evo to a high level to evolve it.

Lugia has high defenses, that's it. Cresselia has high defenses, that's it. Uxie too. But you propose to ban them when Ferro's got high defenses and a great typing. If you don't know the usefulness of Ferrothorn, you don't know how to battle competitively.

Whatever they do, I will counter their sandstorm. If they switch their tt then I would had switched my kingdra. There no point it seems, you don't seem to want to absorb this fact. Just go battle someone with that team and then return and tell me what you did.
Ferrothorn has great typing but also a great weakness. I don't use any wall in my team so I don't need ferrothorn.

What are you talking about? I have always only used a Pokemon to catch Pokemon. only time I used masterball is when they are roaming in the wild and can escape. I caught all major pokemon with normal ball.

I say what I said many times before.
Not all legendary's are super strong but in general they are mostly very strong and usually at high levels when you catch them. comparing that those raising a garchomp from a low level gible is just ridiculous.

A 1% Chance in getting a Dragonite at a surfacing Pokemon, which is fairly rare in itself is not rare enough for you? 8O

We do get a Gible or Dratini for completing a challenge, at the end of which you have to battle a trainer with a Level 80 Latios / Latias (Depending on the version), Dragonite / Garchomp (Depending on the version) and Volcarona. Yes, he uses a LEGENDARY. And the Dratini or Gible we get, depending on the version, is Shiny.

This supports that even Game Freak is starting to think that Legendaries are not so overpowered.

I know you can get a shiny gible or dratini when you beat black tower or white forest but just did not know you can catch a dragonite.
Facing legendary's in the game is not that strange and I do not care, N uses a legendary against you as well that does not mean they think zekrom or reshiram is not overpowered.

 

[Mew The Gato]

Whatever they do, I will counter their sandstorm. If they switch their tt then I would had switched my kingdra. There no point it seems, you don't seem to want to absorb this fact. Just go battle someone with that team and then return and tell me what you did.
Ferrothorn has great typing but also a great weakness. I don't use any wall in my team so I don't need ferrothorn.

What are you talking about? I have always only used a Pokemon to catch Pokemon. only time I used masterball is when they are roaming in the wild and can escape. I caught all major pokemon with normal ball.


I say what I said many times before.
Not all legendary's are super strong but in general they are mostly very strong and usually at high levels when you catch them. comparing that those raising a garchomp from a low level gible is just ridiculous.

Not using walls is a bad strategy. That would mean a fast sweeper can sweep your whole team.

Well, me too, I was not able to catch a legendary with Ultra Balls and Dusk Balls, so I used a Pokeball and it worked. From then on, I used normal Pokeball. I even caught roamers in Platinum with them. I know, Ultra Balls and Dusk Balls have a higher catch rate, so this is pointless, but it has some special meaning to me.

Well, just level is not everything. You need IVs, EVs, etc. It is easier to breed for IVs than to soft reset for a legendary with high IVs.

 

[T-Bolt]

Turn one
Kingdra used Rain dance. Tyranitar used crunch.

Turn two
Switch to ferrothorn. Kingdra used hydro pump (since your using special Kingdra)

Turn Three
Switch to Tyranitar. Kingdra used ice beam. Minimal damage
Kingdra is hurt by sandstorm

Turn four
Kingdra used Rain dance. Tyranitar used crunch. Kingdra fainted

Again what you say is flawed. Gabite is found at level 48 in Platinum, you can capture Dragonite itself in BW, and I believe you can find Zweilous at a high level as well in B2W2.

 

[Garbodor.]

Not using walls is a bad strategy. That would mean a fast sweeper can sweep your whole team.

Well, me too, I was not able to catch a legendary with Ultra Balls and Dusk Balls, so I used a Pokeball and it worked. From then on, I used normal Pokeball. I even caught roamers in Platinum with them. I know, Ultra Balls and Dusk Balls have a higher catch rate, so this is pointless, but it has some special meaning to me.

Well, just level is not everything. You need IVs, EVs, etc. It is easier to breed for IVs than to soft reset for a legendary with high IVs.

My team is about fast sweeping well it was till my game was taken. I had wall's if I ever feel like I need them. I had EV trained my Pokemon in their speed such as my volcarona but before I could finish it, my DS was stolen with my game

I did not learn about IV's till recently, next time I get a DS I will concentrate on IV's instead.

Turn one
Kingdra used Rain dance. Tyranitar used crunch.

Turn two
Switch to ferrothorn. Kingdra used hydro pump (since your using special Kingdra)

Turn Three
Switch to Tyranitar. Kingdra used ice beam. Minimal damage
Kingdra is hurt by sandstorm

Turn four
Kingdra used Rain dance. Tyranitar used crunch. Kingdra fainted

Again what you say is flawed. Gabite is found at level 48 in Platinum, you can capture Dragonite itself in BW, and I believe you can find Zweilous at a high level as well in B2W2.

You just keep talking in circles. Go at least use the team and then try to create hypothesis's.
The only flawed thing here is your thinking. My volcarano could had also learned sunny day and deal nicely enough with any of those two Pokemon.
Volcarona knew giga drain and I could easily taught it sunny day.
But I never had to even use volcarona. Just go at least try the team before you try lecture people.

 

[bolter1]

He wiped out an electivire with one bug bite.

As well as the other five Pokemon on the team.

You just keep talking in circles. Go at least use the team and then try to create hypothesis's.
The only flawed thing here is your thinking. My volcarano could had also learned sunny day and deal nicely enough with any of those two Pokemon.
Volcarona knew giga drain and I could easily taught it sunny day.
But I never had to even use volcarona. Just go at least try the team before you try lecture people.

Then it wouldn't be a hypothesis. You create a hypothesis, then do testing, then create a conclusion. Did you not learn the scientific method?

 

[T-Bolt]

Sigh. I think I can get my point across anyway now.

See to defeat sand teams, you had to use Kingdra as a special attacking Dragon, when Latias, Latios and Hydreigon are much superior choices. You had to use Sunny Day on Volcarona instead of some other important move, which would have helped it sweep teams greatly. Overall, you're using a less effective team just to deal with one threat- Excadrill. Is this really contributing to balance? Or would the better choice be banning Excadrill and help battlers think of one less threat while making non-sand teams?

 

[Garbodor.]

As well as the other five Pokemon on the team.


Then it wouldn't be a hypothesis. You create a hypothesis, then do testing, then create a conclusion.

That's my point. Once he actually tries it, he wont be repeating the same thing so no more of that hypothesis.
He bases his theory on exactly how something will occur and he thinks that it will happen that exact way.
I am not sure how many times he actually had any battles.