What's the deal with Smogon?

[Garbodor.]

Seriously, why does the site "Smogon" act like it's some high authority of Pokemon? And why do people take their tier system so seriously?
I mean just because they ban a Pokemon on their site, does it mean that all Pokemon battles should follow their rules? come on!

I am still new to this site but why does serebii not create it's own tier system if you think it's needed ? (I don't think we need tier system here since it's stupid idea anyway).

serebii is much more professional than their site and a much better source of Pokemon knowledge.
They only seem to attract people for "Competitive battling" which is ridiculous really as they basically just take advantage of people using their site for battling. I don't see why this site cannot out do them in that regard.

Sorry for rant.

 

[Lt. BLEU™]

well i do agree with you.....it gets quiet annoying when you can't use certain item or certain ability with certain conditions for sure....like no snow cloack in hail or swift swim with rain dance......it's really annoying!

 

[EonDragonFTW]

No ones forcing you to follow Smogon. It's just that the majority do so in the competitive community because Smogon makes the best decisions that are healthy for the meta game. There are other tiering systems like PO, and idk if Serebii is up to making up a separate tiering system. But we'll see

 

[Gampi]

I think the tiers system and the concept of competitive battling is a stupid concept overall. There are Pokémon that are classed as "Neverused" on Smogon that are only there because they don't have some super-awesome ability that halves damage taken when at full health/aren't Dragon type. Tiers system just inspires lazy team building, since people just go to Smogon and Pokésav/Pokégen the first six Pokés they see in Uber/OU tier.

Whilst I do EV train my Pokémon and breed them for specific moves, abilities and IVs (also I hang around the RMT threads because I like helping people make good teams/getting rated on my own), I despise Smogon entirely.

 

[EonDragonFTW]

While I agree on the lazy team building, and how many teams look the same, you CAN use the lower tier pokes in higher tiers. But if you're mad why you can't use your Charizard effectively in OU, it's cuz of the combination of shallow move pool and mediocre base stats, and not to mention that 4x stealth rock weakness. But I like to be original in team building and use stuff you don't see every day. And if you still want to use the lower tier pokes, play in a lower tier

 

[Garbodor.]

well i do agree with you.....it gets quiet annoying when you can't use certain item or certain ability with certain conditions for sure....like no snow cloack in hail or swift swim with rain dance......it's really annoying!

This is my point, they take it too far and expect people to follow their so called rules. I don't take them any serious what so ever. The only rule I follow, is that no legendary should be used and all non-legendary's must be legitimate and not hacks.

No ones forcing you to follow Smogon. It's just that the majority do so in the competitive community because Smogon makes the best decisions that are healthy for the meta game. There are other tiering systems like PO, and idk if Serebii is up to making up a separate tiering system. But we'll see

I never said they are forcing me to follow them, they don't have that power. I am saying why do so many other act like smogon's say is the ultimate word. And no, they do not make the best decisions, why do you think that? People are just following them and thinking they are the representative to Pokemon or something.

In Yu-Gi-Oh for example, it's konami that banns cards. I have no reason not to follow Konami. I would prefer if Pokemon did something similar like Konami. Until then, I would follow the rule which means you cannot use legendary Pokemons, other than that you can use whichever Pokemons you want as long as it's trained and not some hacked Pokemon. For every strong non-legendary there is a counter, so I don't see just because a non-legendary seems powerful, that they should ban it.

I think the tiers system and the concept of competitive battling is a stupid concept overall. There are Pokémon that are classed as "Neverused" on Smogon that are only there because they don't have some super-awesome ability that halves damage taken when at full health/aren't Dragon type. Tiers system just inspires lazy team building, since people just go to Smogon and Pokésav/Pokégen the first six Pokés they see in Uber/OU tier.

Whilst I do EV train my Pokémon and breed them for specific moves, abilities and IVs (also I hang around the RMT threads because I like helping people make good teams/getting rated on my own), I despise Smogon entirely.

This is exactly my point. Just say in proper battling, legendary's cannot be used. Other than that, you need to use logic and decide how to build a powerful team of non-legendary's. You spend long time training a pokemon to level hundred and then it's banned just because it can sweep someone's team. There is no Pokemon that has no weakness, so if you are loosing then it's because you don't have a balanced team, don't blame it on the Pokemon which sweeped you...blame it on yourself.

 

[EonDragonFTW]

You can always play in the gbu meta game, Pokemon company/Nintendo bans stuff from there

 

[Garbodor.]

You can always play in the gbu meta game, Pokemon company/Nintendo bans stuff from there

What do you think of the Idea that only Legendary's should be banned? That's what I always believed.

Edit:
I don't see the real point of this so called "competitive battling"... I mean just say to people go build yourself a team as long you don't use any legendary's then it's fine.
If you build a team filled with weak Pokemon, then you should not complain if you get swept. There are some non-leg Pokemon with great abilities such as a excadrill but it can be countered if you have a proper balanced team what you don't do is turn around and ban excadrill. There is nothing competitive about that.

What's wrong with letting people just use what ever team they need as long as they are non-leg. I always followed that rule and had no problem. Sometimes I lost and sometimes I won...but that's the way it is, You cannot win every every battle as every now and then you'll battle someone whose team has just a slight advantage and that "slight" is enough to make them win.

 

[bolter1]

Seriously, why does the site "Smogon" act like it's some high authority of Pokemon? And why do people take their tier system so seriously?
I mean just because they ban a Pokemon on their site, does it mean that all Pokemon battles should follow their rules? come on!

People take Smogon tiers so seriously because Smogon makes the best objective decisions for a balanced, strategy-based metagame. It's not one person making these decisions, either. Every Pokemon goes through a testing phase to see whether or nor said Pokemon/set is broken or not. Pokemon are in whichever tier they are in not directly because of strength, but from usage stats (which is influenced by strength). If a Pokemon is at the top of it's tier, they may move it up a tier. It is all based on usage stats, though they are influnced by a Pokemon's power, usage trumps power. If enough people used Delcatty, it could get moved to OU even though it sucks. The Pokemon games do not follow the tier system, so no, not all battles have to follow Smogon's rules.

I am still new to this site but why does serebii not create it's own tier system? serebii is much more professional than their site and a much better source of Pokemon knowledge.
They only seem to attract people for "Competitive battling" which is ridiculous really as they basically just take advantage of people using their site for battling. I don't see why this site cannot out do them in that regard.

Creating a tier system requires a lot of work in order to make the tiers balanced and tiers are dynamic, they're always changing a little, so it would take a lot of work to keep them updated. Smogon is a competitive battling site, so why would they want to attract people who watch the anime? They have the right to have a target audience, which happens to be competitive battlers.

well i do agree with you.....it gets quiet annoying when you can't use certain item or certain ability with certain conditions for sure....like no snow cloack in hail or swift swim with rain dance......it's really annoying!

Smogon bans certain combinations because battles are to be based on skill and strategy rather than luck. If they allowed stuff like Double Team, someone would be able to easily win against an opponent of superior battling skill just because the dice rolls landed in their favour. And it's not Rain Dance+Swift Swim that's banned, it's Drizzle+Swift Swim that's banned. That's because it requires a lot less strategy/skill in order to lead with a Politoed and proceed to sweep simply because all of your Pokemon are faster than the opponent's (whose would otherwise be faster naturally) just because of permanent rain than it does having to set rain back up every 5 or 8 turns. It's all in order to keep it fair.
EDIT:

What do you think of the Idea that only Legendary's should be banned? That's what I always believed.

Edit:
I don't see the real point of this so called "competitive battling"... I mean just say to people go build yourself a team as long you don't use any legendary's then it's fine.
If you build a team filled with weak Pokemon, then you should not complain if you get swept. There are some non-leg Pokemon with great abilities such as a excadrill but it can be countered if you have a proper balanced team what you don't do is turn around and ban excadrill. There is nothing competitive about that.

What's wrong with letting people just use what ever team they need as long as they are non-leg. I always followed that rule and had no problem. Sometimes I lost and sometimes I won...but that's the way it is, You cannot win every every battle as every now and then you'll battle someone whose team has just a slight advantage and that "slight" is enough to make them win.

Legendaries are still Pokemon, so why shouldn't we be allowed to use them if we want? Not all legendaries are strong. Every Pokemon can be countered in some way. And what's with this mentality that Ubers=banned? Excdarill was put into Ubers because nothing else could beat it once it was in a Sandstorm. This goes back to the usages because if something seems unbeatable in the current tier, people will use it A LOT. The tiers are in place so every Pokemon can battle against another team and actually have a chance to win. Of course if you put a Mothim up against a Dragonite you are most likely going to lose, but if you put the same Mothim against Misdreavus, then the Mothim could actually come out on top.

 

[Garbodor.]

I am sorry but I just believe people will follow smogon's way if they want unnecessary inconvenience. Their tier systen is just stupid.
So what if people use a Pokemon a lot? Then make sure your team is balanced and ready to counter it. whilst excadrill was not banned, people were forced to have a certain Pokemon in their team ready to counter it; in reality that was a great thing because it meant you had to be forced to make a more balanced team.

There is nothing competitive about how smogon does their battling. I don't see why people keep saying that. If you want proper competitive battling then let people use whatever non-leg Pokemons they want and you can really test your team. I keep saying, if you loose then the problem is your team relative to the person team you lost against. If your grass type team gets swept by a Blaziken then it should not mean balziken should get banned but rather you need to have a more balanced team.

I mean not convinced that their tier system makes for more competitive battling. It does not. Matter of fact it's plain stupid.
Putting Pokemon in the spot light because they favored by many trainers is just pathetic. It seems to me that they are trying to hard to be different in how they do things and along the way they just ruined it. I don't see why do many trainers use their rules.

Legendaries are still Pokemon, so why shouldn't we be allowed to use them if we want? Not all legendaries are strong. Every Pokemon can be countered in some way. And what's with this mentality that Ubers=banned? Excdarill was put into Ubers because nothing else could beat it once it was in a Sandstorm. This goes back to the usages because if something seems unbeatable in the current tier, people will use it A LOT. The tiers are in place so every Pokemon can battle against another team and actually have a chance to win. Of course if you put a Mothim up against a Dragonite you are most likely going to lose, but if you put the same Mothim against Misdreavus, then the Mothim could actually come out on top.

What do you mean nothing else could beat excadrill? what are you talking about? excadrill could had been countered and was countered by many people.
If you put a mothin against a dragonite then of course you should not be surprised if it gets one hit KO'd. That would be your problem for using it. In a blanced team, you should have the Pokemon needed to take on dragonite so why would anyone use mothin against it? They would mean you're just not a good trainer.
Most people in general like similar Pokemon anyway. Many people may like gharchamp but that does not mean it should be banned. All Pokemons can be countered, even legendary's.

I know not all legendary's are very powerful but majoriy of them are..
This tier system based on how much people use a Pokemon is plain stupid.

If you fail to defeat a certain Pokemon with your current team then it means your team is simply not balanced enough.
BTW, you don't have to have one team only. You can have many teams.

I usually ran a balanced team and a fun team. I used my balanced one for battling competitive and my fun team was just filled with Pokemon that I like for strange reasons.

 

[Lt. BLEU™]

well yeah sorry drizzle + swift swim.....but so what?
less skills.....skills can be developed?! can't they?
also well you seem to have good idea.....any reason why soul dew is banned??!

 

[Mew The Gato]

Seriously, why does the site "Smogon" act like it's some high authority of Pokemon? And why do people take their tier system so seriously?
I mean just because they ban a Pokemon on their site, does it mean that all Pokemon battles should follow their rules? come on!

I am still new to this site but why does serebii not create it's own tier system if you think it's needed ? (I don't think we need tier system here since it's stupid idea anyway).

serebii is much more professional than their site and a much better source of Pokemon knowledge.
They only seem to attract people for "Competitive battling" which is ridiculous really as they basically just take advantage of people using their site for battling. I don't see why this site cannot out do them in that regard.

Sorry for rant.

We use Smogon Rules, they never asked us to do so, but we do. Why? Because their tier systems are based upon advanced studies. It lets everyone use their favourite Pokemon, as everyone would only use super powered legendaries if tiers did not exist.

Furthermore, they admit that the tiers are not completely accurate. Mew is omnipotent, so it should be at "no battle" tier, as nothing can survive a battle with it. However, these tiers are as accurate as it gets. There is absolutely no better tier system in existence.

The very purpose of that site is Competitive Battling. If you do not like it, do not go on there. Problem solved with simple technique.

And as far as I know, they are better at Competitive Battling than Serebii Net overall - a few higher ups even know how to RNG in BATTLES!

well i do agree with you.....it gets quiet annoying when you can't use certain item or certain ability with certain conditions for sure....like no snow cloack in hail or swift swim with rain dance......it's really annoying!

See - anything with Double Team and some luck can sweep teams, thus they are banned in every tier but Ubers. Seriously, can you face a team of Moody Smeargle and Moody Glalie in Overused? I do not think so! They are such a powerful force in Ubers, they shall absolutely destroy every other tier!

Same with Evasion Abilities - their is a reason Brightpowder used to be the most used item on Garchomp - it is great when paired with Sand Veil.

And Swift Swim would let threatening sweepers like Kabutops, Ludicolo and Kingdra take up all of the Overused Tier!

any reason why soul dew is banned??!

SERIOUSLY?! It raises Latios and Latias' already high Special Stats even further! And when that is paired with their base 110 Speed...

 

[EonDragonFTW]

well yeah sorry drizzle + swift swim.....but so what?
less skills.....skills can be developed?! can't they?
also well you seem to have good idea.....any reason why soul dew is banned??!

Free calm mind makes latios impossible to counter. It rips everything apart. But latios itself can easily be taken out by a pursuit

 

[Garbodor.]

We use Smogon Rules, they never asked us to do so, but we do. Why? Because their tier systems are based upon advanced studies. It lets everyone use their favourite Pokemon, as everyone would only use super powered legendaries if tiers did not exist.

Furthermore, they admit that the tiers are not completely accurate. Mew is omnipotent, so it should be at "no battle" tier, as nothing can survive a battle with it. However, these tiers are as accurate as it gets. There is absolutely no better tier system in existence.

The very purpose of that site is Competitive Battling. If you do not like it, do not go on there. Problem solved with simple technique.

And as far as I know, they are better at Competitive Battling than Serebii Net overall - a few higher ups even know how to RNG in BATTLES!

How is their system based on advanced study?
I have clearly stated from the beginning that people should be able to use any Pokemons as long as they are non-legendary's.
It's a very simple concept no?


Having more rules in a game does not make it more competitive but more inconvenient. Simple.

 

[T-Bolt]

People use Smogon tiers because they can use any pokemon they want albeit on particular tiers. Pokemon are never banned, they are only shifted from one tier to another, due to some reason like being overpowered or hard to counter. This ensures that there is diversity in teams and people don't keep using only these pokemon. Certain abilities are banned however, because they make battling less fun. The Smogon tiers are by far the best tiering system IMO, which is why they are so popular. Of course people don't have to follow their rules when they battle, there's even a custom battle option on simulators that use Smogon's tiers. People use them because they want to.

What I don't get is why people are always against Smogon's tiers.

 

[Mew The Gato]

I am sorry but I just believe people will follow smogon's way if they want unnecessary inconvenience. Their tier systen is just stupid.
So what if people use a Pokemon a lot? Then make sure your team is balanced and ready to counter it. whilst excadrill was not banned, people were forced to have a certain Pokemon in their team ready to counter it; in reality that was a great thing because it meant you had to be forced to make a more balanced team.

There is nothing competitive about how smogon does their battling. I don't see why people keep saying that. If you want proper competitive battling then let people use whatever non-leg Pokemons they want and you can really test your team. I keep saying, if you loose then the problem is your team relative to the person team you lost against. If your grass type team gets swept by a Blaziken then it should not mean balziken should get banned but rather you need to have a more balanced team.

I mean not convinced that their tier system makes for more competitive battling. It does not. Matter of fact it's plain stupid.
Putting Pokemon in the spot light because they favored by many trainers is just pathetic. It seems to me that they are trying to hard to be different in how they do things and along the way they just ruined it. I don't see why do many trainers use their rules.

What do you mean nothing else could beat excadrill? what are you talking about? excadrill could had been countered and was countered by many people.
If you put a mothin against a dragonite then of course you should not be surprised if it gets one hit KO'd. That would be your problem for using it. In a blanced team, you should have the Pokemon needed to take on dragonite so why would anyone use mothin against it? They would mean you're just not a good trainer.
Most people in general like similar Pokemon anyway. Many people may like gharchamp but that does not mean it should be banned. All Pokemons can be countered, even legendary's.

I know not all legendary's are very powerful but majoriy of them are..
This tier system based on how much people use a Pokemon is plain stupid.

If you fail to defeat a certain Pokemon with your current team then it means your team is simply not balanced enough.
BTW, you don't have to have one team only. You can have many teams.

I usually ran a balanced team and a fun team. I used my balanced one for battling competitive and my fun team was just filled with Pokemon that I like for strange reasons.

Can you counter every Pokemon in existence? Do you have any idea of how much your idea would raise the luck factor in battles?! It would be dependent on luck who you are matched up with in a battle, it would be more luck than skill!

It is not about Types. Learn more about Pokemon battle mechanics - you do not know enough. Blaziken would be taken down by even Grass Types, really, but what makes it Uber is Speed Boost. Without it, Blaziken is both slow and has low Defense. But with Speed Boost, it is an absolute sweeper!

The logical thing is people would use the strongest Pokemon, naturally, unless they play to lose. And there are more people who want to win than lose, so their system is fairly accurate.

Oh, god, Excadrill, Blaziken, these Pokemon can just sweep teams, INCLUDING LEGENDARIES when used properly. Legendaries are not more special than normal Pokemon. For one, I have seen a Smoochum beat Regigigas! And I saw a Bidoof beat Jirachi! WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT FROM OTHER POKEMON!

No, the majority are not. Legendary does not mean powerful, it means legendary.

Legendary = / = Powerful.

Legendary = Legendary
Powerful = Powerful.

This is silly: Some Pokemon are just too strong. Even technique has limitations. Not everyone is a genius!

Trust me, you would lose almost every battle if you use that exact same team, even when tiers are removed. If you win a lot, then it is only because of tiers.
If you argue that you win a lot on Wi-Fi, then I argue that it is simply because everyone does not EV Train or IV Breed their Pokemon.

Seriously, your idea would make everything very difficult for those who play for fun.
Believe it or not, Smogon actually encourages playing for fun, not winning.

 

[Garbodor.]

People use Smogon tiers because they can use any pokemon they want albeit on particular tiers. Pokemon are never banned, they are only shifted from one tier to another, due to some reason like being overpowered or hard to counter. This ensures that there is diversity in teams and people don't keep using only these pokemon. Certain abilities are banned however, because they make battling less fun. The Smogon tiers are by far the best tiering system IMO, which is why they are so popular. Of course people don't have to follow their rules when they battle, there's even a custom battle option on simulators that use Smogon's tiers. People use them because they want to.

What I don't get is why people are always against Smogon's tiers.

Because there is nothing good about their tiers. I am not saying people are forced to use them or anything but people should not see their rules as worth any more than rules created by other experienced players. smogon creates restriction where it is not necessary.

If I want to battle competitive then I wil make sure I use a balanced team. I will not use one of my fun teams which I made because I like the way the Pokemon's look.
I am logical enough to know not to use my fun team agains a well balanced, IV's,Ev trained team filled with great non-leg Pokemons which will destroy me. Why do we need smogons tiers to tell us that?

Smogon seems to take credit for things trainers will naturally anyway like not using a weedle against a gharchamp. It's all logical no?

Can you counter every Pokemon in existence? Do you have any idea of how much your idea would raise the luck factor in battles?! It would be dependent on luck who you are matched up with in a battle, it would be more luck than skill!

It is not about Types. Learn more about Pokemon battle mechanics - you do not know enough. Blaziken would be taken down by even Grass Types, really, but what makes it Uber is Speed Boost. Without it, Blaziken is both slow and has low Defense. But with Speed Boost, it is an absolute sweeper!

The logical thing is people would use the strongest Pokemon, naturally, unless they play to lose. And there are more people who want to win than lose, so their system is fairly accurate.

Oh, god, Excadrill, Blaziken, these Pokemon can just sweep teams, INCLUDING LEGENDARIES when used properly. Legendaries are not more special than normal Pokemon. For one, I have seen a Smoochum beat Regigigas! And I saw a Bidoof beat Jirachi! WITHOUT ANY SUPPORT FROM OTHER POKEMON!

No, the majority are not. Legendary does not mean powerful, it means legendary.

Legendary = / = Powerful.

Legendary = Legendary
Powerful = Powerful.

This is silly: Some Pokemon are just too strong. Even technique has limitations. Not everyone is a genius!

Trust me, you would lose almost every battle if you use that exact same team, even when tiers are removed. If you win a lot, then it is only because of tiers.
If you argue that you win a lot on Wi-Fi, then I argue that it is simply because everyone does not EV Train or IV Breed their Pokemon.

Seriously, your idea would make everything very difficult for those who play for fun.
Believe it or not, Smogon actually encourages playing for fun, not winning.

I have battled against so many people and realized whenever I lost the problem was always my team due it being not balanced enough or how I used it.
If I had a team that could counter anything then I would never loose a darn match would I? Just think before you make a comment.
There is NO Pokemon which can't be countered. This Idea that Pokemon would then be mostly a game of luck just shows you probably run a team that is not balanced whatso ever. If you had a balanced team then you could do fairly well against most matches and will still loose matches but that's the way it is.

Every Pokemon have a weakness. Why on earth do you think they released the new fairy type? it's to make the game even more balanced by reducing the effectiveness of Dragon types. Pokemon is already balanced and you don't need tiers like somgon's to help win matches. If you can't play the game then don't try and make it easier.

What can be more fun and a test of your skills to encounter people with random teams and see how you stack up? Your idea of fun is to make things easier?

 

[Mew The Gato]

Because there is nothing good about their tiers. I am not saying people are forced to use them or anything but people should not see their rules as worth any more than rules created by other experienced players. smogon creates restriction where it is not necessary.

If I want to battle competitive then I wil make sure I use a balanced team. I will not use one of my fun teams which I made because I like the way the Pokemon's look.
I am logical enough to know not to use my fun team agains a well balanced, IV's,Ev trained team filled with great non-leg Pokemons which will destroy me. Why do we need smogons tiers to tell us that?

Smogon seems to take credit for things trainers will naturally anyway like not using a weedle against a gharchamp. It's all logical no?

You care nothing about people who love Weedle? What if someone loves Weedle and wants to use it AND WIN?! Smogon allows us to do just that with Little Cup, where it is actually viable!

Your sense of logic needs polishing.

How is their system based on advanced study?
I have clearly stated from the beginning that people should be able to use any Pokemons as long as they are non-legendary's.
It's a very simple concept no?


Having more rules in a game does not make it more competitive but more inconvenient. Simple.

You are acting as if Legendaries are oh-so-powerful.

Legendary = / = Powerful.

Legendary = Legendary.
Powerful = Powerful.

Not simple, you do not know enough about Competitive Battling, there is much more to it than stats. An Excadrill or Blaziken can easily defeat an Arceus when used properly.

And I think this should be in the Competitive Discussion Forum?

 

[Royal_Qeca]

Tiers system just inspires lazy team building, since people just go to Smogon and Pokésav/Pokégen the first six Pokés they see in Uber/OU tier..

That's not how it works... At least if you want to succeed competitively. As a team everything has to be in sync to be powerful enough to able to defeat the opponent's otherwise it's just a big FLOP.

 

[T-Bolt]

I have battled against so many people and realized whenever I lost the problem was always my team due it being not balanced enough or how I used it.
If I had a team that could counter anything then I would never loose a darn match would I? Just think before you make a comment.
There is NO Pokemon which can't be countered. This Idea that Pokemon would then be mostly a game of luck just shows you probably run a team that is not balanced whatso ever. If you had a balanced team then you could do fairly well against most matches and will still loose matches but that's the way it is.

Every Pokemon have a weakness. Why on earth do you think they released the new fairy type? it's to make the game even more balanced by reducing the effectiveness of Dragon types. Pokemon is already balanced and you don't need tiers like somgon's to help win matches. If you can't play the game then don't try and make it easier.

Firstly, I don't think you understand why tiers have been made. Tiers are made to make battling less restrictive, to let you use nearly every pokemon effectively.

Secondly, yes there are no pokemon that cannot be countered. But there are several pokemon that are extremely hard to counter, which is why Smogon bans them. Take Excadrill for example. It's awesome typing, sky high attack and speed made it's best counters Conkeldurr and Azumarill. Now you can't expect every team to have Conkeldurr and Azumarill can you? The easier thing would be to remove Excadrill. And thus, you're not restricted to using Conk and Azumarill just to counter Excadrill.

The game isn't balanced at present, so tiers and banning are a necessity to keep battling fun and un-centralized.