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What's with this treatment of Ash?

Blood Red

【推しの子】
Good news, everyone! Ash is becoming unbeatable! Proof that they do care about their weird OC!
He's not just becoming unbeatable, he's becoming even more unbeatable, whatever the heck that means! I hope they give Goh a bit more screen time though, he needs all the time he can get to become this new, unbeatable Ash's 'equal'...
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
If anyone, AG, DP and SM were the opportunities to finish Ash's story, as those had the most satisfying conclusions for his character during their respective series just write off Tobías and the DP Ending is perfect
There were quite some opportunities to finish the anime with Sinnoh and Kalos being the perfect moment to end his journey (maybe in OS too) with Kalos being the defining moment that he reached higher than past seasons back then.

In Journey he seems a competent trainer enough and in some ways reminds me of Sinnoh Ash, but i can't help but think that he just seems like a co-protagonist this time around and that's what kinda bothers me
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
There were quite some opportunities to finish the anime with Sinnoh and Kalos being the perfect moment to end his journey (maybe in OS too) with Kalos being the defining moment that he reached higher than past seasons back then.

In Journey he seems a competent trainer enough and in some ways reminds me of Sinnoh Ash, but i can't help but think that he just seems like a co-protagonist this time around and that's what kinda bothers me
If the writers cared to give Ash a proper satisfying conclusion during XY and not the "moral victor" over Alain that for a lot of people was still disapointed, it could be a good opportunity to end Ash's journeys. But seriously, the only character with a decent satisfying conclusion was Serena, and it was the best episode post Team Flare arc.
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
If the writers cared to give Ash a proper satisfying conclusion during XY and not the "moral victor" over Alain that for a lot of people was still disapointed, it could be a good opportunity to end Ash's journeys. But seriously, the only character with a decent satisfying conclusion was Serena, and it was the best episode post Team Flare arc.
I guess fans demanding Alain to be in the league backfired so hard, it's a shame too because I like Alain but i hated how he was shove into the league with no real motive whatsoever because he had no intention on being there on the first place. Despite the red flags, I thought maybe the battle in the League would be epic and was a 50-50. Ash in the Kalos league hype was huge because this was probably the perfect time for him to win because he seemed really competitive and determined, he deserved it, but alas.

And indeed, Serena was the only one who got a conclusion and her character seemed finish after XYZ, her character was done and i don't see what else they could do with her
 

Spyro39

Well-Known Member
If the writers cared to give Ash a proper satisfying conclusion during XY and not the "moral victor" over Alain that for a lot of people was still disapointed, it could be a good opportunity to end Ash's journeys. But seriously, the only character with a decent satisfying conclusion was Serena, and it was the best episode post Team Flare arc.
Looking back at XY, I'm now not sure if that was the series to end Ash's journey. Sure, he was at one of his best and deserved to win the Kalos League, but it was also a series with no continuity. None of Ash's past companions appeared, he didn't use his reserves, and none of his past accomplishments were brought up.

If there was going to be a proper conclusion to Ash's journey, I'd have to believe they would be tying back to all of the previous series to wrap it all up for him.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I guess fans demanding Alain to be in the league backfired so hard, it's a shame too because I like Alain but i hated how he was shove into the league with no real motive whatsoever because he had no intention on being there on the first place. Despite the red flags, I thought maybe the battle in the League would be epic and was a 50-50. Ash in the Kalos league hype was huge because this was probably the perfect time for him to win because he seemed really competitive and determined, he deserved it, but alas.

And indeed, Serena was the only one who got a conclusion and her character seemed finish after XYZ, her character was done and i don't see what else they could do with her
Alain was foreshadowed in the main anime after the Ash vs Clemont battle, however the execution of Ash and Alain's "rivalry" was very bad. Alain was introduced so late, and his only reason to be Ash's rival was Ash-Greninja (mostly), this was worse than Sawyer who at least had admiration for Ash because he was a experienced trainer and Sawyer an Amateur. The worst part is that Alain had zero interest in the league, he only wanted to battle with Ash, this is one of the reasons why I consider Ash vs Sawyer a much better battle than Ash vs Alain.
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
Alain was foreshadowed in the main anime after the Ash vs Clemont battle, however the execution of Ash and Alain's "rivalry" was very bad. Alain was introduced so late, and his only reason to be Ash's rival was Ash-Greninja (mostly), this was worse than Sawyer who at least had admiration for Ash because he was a experienced trainer and Sawyer an Amateur. The worst part is that Alain had zero interest in the league, he only wanted to battle with Ash, this is one of the reasons why I consider Ash vs Sawyer a much better battle than Ash vs Alain.
Alain's only motivation was Ash Greninja literally, that's it, their rivalry was never developed as good as it was with Sawyer, just maybe if the third time Alain fought Ash as a Team Flare member at the Lumiose Tower and the final battle of the League was Ash vs Sawyer maybe it could have saved it, key word, save. But indeed, Alain in the league felt forced, what was he gonna do after he won the League anyway?
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
Looking back at XY, I'm now not sure if that was the series to end Ash's journey. Sure, he was at one of his best and deserved to win the Kalos League, but it was also a series with no continuity. None of Ash's past companions appeared, he didn't use his reserves, and none of his past accomplishments were brought up.

If there was going to be a proper conclusion to Ash's journey, I'd have to believe they would be tying back to all of the previous series to wrap it all up for him.
I see why, it would have been kinda odd in a way since no past references were made if i'm not mistaken, hence why some people felt Kalos was like its own series rather than a continuation.

Part of the reason why i would have liked for Kalos to be the series finale was the league, Ash making it far into the League, saving a region from almost dying with a Pokemon that has an elusive form that's extremely rare and lastly the final message "And to our own way". It felt like a finale to me.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I see why, it would have been kinda odd in a way since no past references were made if i'm not mistaken, hence why some people felt Kalos was like its own series rather than a continuation.

Part of the reason why i would have liked for Kalos to be the series finale was the league, Ash making it far into the League, saving a region from almost dying with a Pokemon that has an elusive form that's extremely rare and lastly the final message "And to our own way"..
Another thing that I need to mention is that XYZ for moments feels more like the Ash-Greninja season more than Ash season. Like in the Team Flare Arc it seems like Ash and Greninja are in "equal" contribution to end with the crisis, however in the penultimate episode we see that Greninja is the special one, and it was used as an excuse to now having a unique form like Ash-Greninja to be with the other Ash's Pokémon.

At least Ash and his team got a medal for saving the region I guess....
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
Looking back at XY, I'm now not sure if that was the series to end Ash's journey. Sure, he was at one of his best and deserved to win the Kalos League, but it was also a series with no continuity. None of Ash's past companions appeared, he didn't use his reserves, and none of his past accomplishments were brought up.

If there was going to be a proper conclusion to Ash's journey, I'd have to believe they would be tying back to all of the previous series to wrap it all up for him.
Rather than the end, it should've been the beginning of the end. Kalos had an Elite Four, and you could write a whole mini-series with that as the focus. It'd be super-easy to have Ash interact with his old friends and traveling companions as he trains for the five toughest battles he'd ever have to face. They could've done the whole 'Pokémon School' thing with a new protagonist, while continuing Ash's story on the side for a short while. Maybe it would've also been a great way to test out which type of show people had more interest in.
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
Another thing that I need to mention is that XYZ for moments feels more like the Ash-Greninja season more than Ash season. Like in the Team Flare Arc it seems like Ash and Greninja are in "equal" contribution to end with the crisis, however in the penultimate episode we see that Greninja is the special one, and it was used as an excuse to now having a unique form like Ash-Greninja to be with the other Ash's Pokémon.

At least Ash and his team got a medal for saving the region I guess....
Thinking about it, didn't a Gym Leader said when Greninja was a Frogadier that it was special? I think it was made clear from there that Ash's Greninja was a rather special one, though i can't discredit Ash, without him the transformation would never happen.

Oh well, at least they recognized his pokemon for saving a region from collapsing.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Hello, been watching this series since Kanto on kids WB days. I liked how the series started out with both having goals and different training methods but some where along the way its like this series Journey's lost its way. I know I've seen arguments from one side saying Ash has been here forever and others should get a good amount of focous. While that's fine we have there's too much of a good thing. For example I liked how it was done between Ash and May in AG series, they both had good character arcs and character development equally. I feel like Ash is being forgotten now. Any one else see this?
I don't think Haruka's case is a good example given that she still received far less development than Satoshi did in spite of her Contests. In fact, many of her Contest episodes doubled as Satoshi episodes since he used several of them as opportunities to train his Pokemon, which irked me personally since by comparison Haruka received little focus during Satoshi's Gym battle episodes, aside from her cheering for him of course.

That said, I still don't understand the complaints about Satoshi not doing enough when he appears in practically every episode and still gets all the major plot-relevant battles. After 1,000 episodes of him being the star of the series, it was time for a change.
 
He's not just becoming unbeatable, he's becoming even more unbeatable, whatever the heck that means! I hope they give Goh a bit more screen time though, he needs all the time he can get to become this new, unbeatable Ash's 'equal'...
OH WOAH OHHHHH IM UNBEATABLE
Alain's only motivation was Ash Greninja literally, that's it, their rivalry was never developed as good as it was with Sawyer, just maybe if the third time Alain fought Ash as a Team Flare member at the Lumiose Tower and the final battle of the League was Ash vs Sawyer maybe it could have saved it, key word, save. But indeed, Alain in the league felt forced, what was he gonna do after he won the League anyway?
Exactly, Alain had nothing going for him. Ash had everything.

Another thing that I need to mention is that XYZ for moments feels more like the Ash-Greninja season more than Ash season. Like in the Team Flare Arc it seems like Ash and Greninja are in "equal" contribution to end with the crisis, however in the penultimate episode we see that Greninja is the special one, and it was used as an excuse to now having a unique form like Ash-Greninja to be with the other Ash's Pokémon.

At least Ash and his team got a medal for saving the region I guess....
Greninja was Alain’s Charizard’s chew toy.
Rather than the end, it should've been the beginning of the end. Kalos had an Elite Four, and you could write a whole mini-series with that as the focus. It'd be super-easy to have Ash interact with his old friends and traveling companions as he trains for the five toughest battles he'd ever have to face. They could've done the whole 'Pokémon School' thing with a new protagonist, while continuing Ash's story on the side for a short while. Maybe it would've also been a great way to test out which type of show people had more interest in.
Look at what you did with SM, Pokemon. Missed opportunity right here.
 

Blue Saturday

Violet Prince❤️
I think the issue is that the water chameleon has been treating the worst of the starter so far what is says something since it's the most popular in its own country.
Sob got a single episode before it evolved and concealed itself before evolving into James pond were presumably it'll appear occasionally.
Gou isn’t a battler and his screentime and story centers on his progression as a character hence the focus more so on his shillmon as progressing characters and their relationships and lore with him as species versus just “strength training” Messon has not been treated badly at all. It was established as a crybaby, hindrance and mostly Gou’s little thing needing protecting. They moved on with the Inteleon trainer to the lore/story about the Jimeleon species being lazy via a storyline about its own unhappiness with itself currently and how that mirrored Gou’s own turmoil as a kid.

You can’t really look at all Pokémon stories through the same lens as they have different executions and reasons for being the way they are.

That said, I still don't understand the complaints about Satoshi not doing enough when he appears in practically every episode and still gets all the major plot-relevant battles. After 1,000 episodes of him being the star of the series, it was time for a change.
Yes. This is about where I’m at tbh, I like Satoshi but his character has an array of screentime to last a lifetime. You could marathon one episode a day of three years and still not make it through all the episodes with Satoshi. I like him but if I’m hungry for some good old Satoshi focus I’ll go rewatch some of my fav episodes. I’m happy they prioritize the underdeveloped and temporary cast first this series.
 
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desdar300

Well-Known Member
Gou isn’t a battler and his screentime and story centers on his progression as a character hence the focus more so on his shillmon as progressing characters and their relationships and lore with him as species versus just “strength training” Messon has not been treated badly at all. It was established as a crybaby, hindrance and mostly Gou’s little thing needing protecting. They moved on with the Inteleon trainer to the lore/story about the Jimeleon species being lazy via a storyline about its own unhappiness with itself currently and how that mirrored Gou’s own turmoil as a kid.

You can’t really look at all Pokémon stories through the same lens as they have different executions and reasons for being the way they are.

Yes. This is about where I’m at tbh, I like Satoshi but his character has an array of screentime to last a lifetime. You could marathon one episode a day of three years and still not make it through all the episodes with Satoshi. I like him but if I’m hungry for some good old Satoshi focus I’ll go rewatch some of my fav episodes. I’m happy they prioritize the underdeveloped and temporary cast first this series.
I mean compared to Ace and even Grook it certainly has had the short end of the stick.
It got a single episode to itself before evolving and secluding itself .
We can only hope that Intelion will fair better.
I don't think Haruka's case is a good example given that she still received far less development than Satoshi did in spite of her Contests. In fact, many of her Contest episodes doubled as Satoshi episodes since he used several of them as opportunities to train his Pokemon, which irked me personally since by comparison Haruka received little focus during Satoshi's Gym battle episodes, aside from her cheering for him of course.

That said, I still don't understand the complaints about Satoshi not doing enough when he appears in practically every episode and still gets all the major plot-relevant battles. After 1,000 episodes of him being the star of the series, it was time for a change.
The complaint is less about how little he does with his Pokemon and how the PWC is a afterthought.
When is the last time gangar did anything worthwhile?
They've shown is that they can easily remedy this by having him use his Pokemon in fillers but they typically don't for whatever reason.
 
D

Deleted member 384931

Guest
More unbeatable? What is the fun of that? A protagonist without a challenge?

LIKE HE STRUGGLED ALOT IN THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF IN THE PWC? HE MAYBE LOST 3 TIMES AND GOT BACK IN THE GREAT CLASS OFFSCREEN. AFTER THAT HE DREW WITH BEA AND BEAT A CHAMP LIKE IT WAS NOTHING
 
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SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
More unbeatable? What is the fun of that? A protagonist without a challenge?

LIKE HE STRUGGLED ALOT IN THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF IN THE PWC? HE MAYBE LOST 3 TIMES AND GOT BACK IN THE GREAT CLASS OFFSCREEN. AFTER THAT HE DREW WITH BEA AND BEAT A CHAMP LIKE IT WAS NOTHING
He lost to Bea, 2 random trainers and Rinto, thats 4 times. Idk why people want Ash to lose more, his win loss ratio is perfect atm and he deserves to have his status and strength properly shown then lose multiple times coz apparently every time Ash does something people want to discredit him
 

Jers745

I dont know :p
More unbeatable? What is the fun of that? A protagonist without a challenge?

LIKE HE STRUGGLED ALOT IN THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF IN THE PWC? HE MAYBE LOST 3 TIMES AND GOT BACK IN THE GREAT CLASS OFFSCREEN. AFTER THAT HE DREW WITH BEA AND BEAT A CHAMP LIKE IT WAS NOTHING
Ok i think after nearly 25 years of losing the important competition of the region and beign treated as a rookie, i prefer him winning and becoming unbeateable
 

Panky..

Discord: Panky..#9281
He lost to Bea, 2 random trainers and Rinto, thats 4 times. Idk why people want Ash to lose more, his win loss ratio is perfect atm and he deserves to have his status and strength properly shown then lose multiple times coz apparently every time Ash does something people want to discredit him
I don't mind him becoming "unbeatable" as long as it's done properly and shows the cumulative growth as a trainer and his maturity over the years. But if it's done in a poor manner, the tell-don't-show and off-screen approach that Journeys prioritizes for some blasted reason, then it's a big problem and one that can potentially end up making Ash a Gary Stu. So unless they change that approach, the "unbeatable" part is definitely susceptible to skepticism and pessimism.

Let's see how Ultra Class plays out.
 
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