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When do you think they planned on Ash winning the Alola League?

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
My personal problem with the read is that to get this "second home" feeling, it felt kind of rammed down the viewer's throat. Like Ash was railroaded into making this a supposed second home and that he supposedly loves Alola more than anywhere else. It makes it feel less natural and more like, well, what I say about the Alola League in general: Ash was gonna win and they were gonna employ anything necessary to make sure it happened, regardless of being a good decision or not. That they had to completely shift the genre and strip Ash's wanderlust in order to make their "second home" setup just reinforces the matter.

So, I don't know if I'd call it perfect when it's blatantly engineered to be so rather than a result of a natural occurrence.

Rammed down the viewers throat? Nope, I HEAVILY disagree with that. Alola was the only region where Ash actually had a home and stayed at, with a family in kukui and burnet. Alola heavily emphasizes on home and giving back to nature in its culture, a culture ash became aware of in ep7 with that sweet market lady explaining it to him and by ep20 , that treasure Island episode with ash and Pikachu he clearly shows his love for the region and it's culture. Unlike other regions, this time ash decided to enroll in a school, therefore he stayed at a certain place. It doesn't mean his wanderlust personality was gone. He still went to all the other 4 islands to do the grand trials and he expressed joy in coming to a new island and exploring it. Bonds with people, Pokémon and nature was a constant theme in always every episode so alola becoming a second home for ash isn't rammed down at all, it felt a natural progression to me. Hence, alola was a perfect region for ash to become Champion
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Rammed down the viewers throat? Nope, I HEAVILY disagree with that. Alola was the only region where Ash actually had a home and stayed at, with a family in kukui and burnet. Alola heavily emphasizes on home and giving back to nature in its culture, a culture ash became aware of in ep7 with that sweet market lady explaining it to him and by ep20 , that treasure Island episode with ash and Pikachu he clearly shows his love for the region and it's culture. Unlike other regions, this time ash decided to enroll in a school, therefore he stayed at a certain place. It doesn't mean his wanderlust personality was gone. He still went to all the other 4 islands to do the grand trials and he expressed joy in coming to a new island and exploring it. Bonds with people, Pokémon and nature was a constant theme in always every episode so alola becoming a second home for ash isn't rammed down at all, it felt a natural progression to me. Hence, alola was a perfect region for ash to become Champion
That's, uh, kinda what I'm talking about. You liked it, and that's cool, but the fact they repeatedly hammer how different and special Alola is compared to every other region, rather than just letting you feel that way on your own is what I mean by it being rammed. Like, for comparison, I feel the XY group is a family, but the word "family" in regards to them is never uttered once (barring Bonnie and Clemont, of course). But in SM the word "family" is mentioned constantly, so that's what I mean by "rammed down the viewer's throats". It's not an indictment of the choice to have Alola feel special, but rather that it tried to leave no room for doubt, and if it didn't work for the viewer (which it didn't for me) it comes off as cloying rather than genuine.

And again, you had to literally strip Ash of one of his defining character traits to make it happen (he is a boy who cannot sit still or stay in one place for too long, something his mother has expressed is what's best about him), which to me impacts the overall message and tone. Hence the reason it feels like a forced win rather than a natural one.
 

Flashyspark

Well-Known Member
Move on? When Kotaku is always making predictions of Ash losing the League every time a League is about to begin, it's hard for anyone to move from the show.

People can leave for years yet still come back when the big events occurred like a Pokémon League.

What does it matter what Kotaku's writers say? They get paid to write about anime and video games so of course they talk about Pokemon but that doesn't make them the authority on the Pokemon anime so who cares what they think about the series whether good or bad?

And sure maybe some people who heard about Ash's Alola league victory felt that it was deserved and about time, but I bet most of those people didn't actually watch the finale of the league and only heard about it from social media or news sites that made a big deal about the victory. It helps that most of the latter sites over-rated Ash's win by making up claims that Ash was now a Pokemon Master i.e. clickbait.

My point is that older members of the fandom being mad about the Kalos league situation doesn't translate to those same people sticking around for the Alola league because it's more likely that they outgrew the series and moved on by the time Ash actually won the Alola league. So it doesn't seem right to say that Ash was made to win the Alola league because of fan complaints.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
That's, uh, kinda what I'm talking about. You liked it, and that's cool, but the fact they repeatedly hammer how different and special Alola is compared to every other region, rather than just letting you feel that way on your own is what I mean by it being rammed. Like, for comparison, I feel the XY group is a family, but the word "family" in regards to them is never uttered once (barring Bonnie and Clemont, of course). But in SM the word "family" is mentioned constantly, so that's what I mean by "rammed down the viewer's throats". It's not an indictment of the choice to have Alola feel special, but rather that it tried to leave no room for doubt, and if it didn't work for the viewer (which it didn't for me) it comes off as cloying rather than genuine.

And again, you had to literally strip Ash of one of his defining character traits to make it happen (he is a boy who cannot sit still or stay in one place for too long, something his mother has expressed is what's best about him), which to me impacts the overall message and tone. Hence the reason it feels like a forced win rather than a natural one.
To me personally it felt that way on its own, I think you are being influenced too much by the fandom, they dont keep on saying the cast is a family or that alola is more special than other regions, just the fact its special coz of its unique culture as explained by the market lady in ep7. They definitely do not hammer that down in the series, its just the feeling you get by seeing how ash interacts with and lives there, which led to the fandom continously saying how much alola is like ashs second home, i think the fandom has hammered it down for you coz it is definitely not overstated in the actual show, this idea of how much alola is special to ash than the other region is prevalent in the fandom because the show makes us feel that naturally.
And no they did not change ashs wanderlust personality lol, whenever they went to a new place Ash still couldnt sit still and would immediately wanna explore it, in melemele island he was living in a home and attended school which had other adventures for him, thats like saying why does Ash stay in pallet town between regions and doesnt immediately explore kanto again. His wanderlust personality is retained
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
What does it matter what Kotaku's writers say? They get paid to write about anime and video games so of course they talk about Pokemon but that doesn't make them the authority on the Pokemon anime so who cares what they think about the series whether good or bad?

And sure maybe some people who heard about Ash's Alola league victory felt that it was deserved and about time, but I'm willing to bet that most of those people didn't actually watch the finale of the league and only heard about it from social media or news sites that made a big deal about the victory. It helps that most of the latter sites over-rated Ash's win by making up claims that Ash was now a Pokemon Master i.e. clickbait.

My point is that older members of the fandom being mad about the Kalos league situation doesn't translate to those same people sticking around for the Alola league because it's more likely that they outgrew the series and moved on by the time Ash actually won the Alola league. So it doesn't seem right to say that Ash was made to win the Alola league because of fan complaints.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I think exactly what you're saying is the whole reason why the Kalos League backlash could have led to the Alola League. Under the theory that they decided way back in 2016 to make Ash win the league, which is what the people you're arguing against are saying, the writers would have the Kalos League backlash fresh in their mind when they made the decision, and they probably wouldn't have changed the decision at any point in the subsequent 3 years, so what you're saying about fans not caring in 2019 is irrelevant to the writers' decision which was made way back in 2016.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
That's, uh, kinda what I'm talking about. You liked it, and that's cool, but the fact they repeatedly hammer how different and special Alola is compared to every other region, rather than just letting you feel that way on your own is what I mean by it being rammed.

I had the same perception. Several times I've noticed in the episodes how we'd have characters, and sometimes even Ash himself, reaffirming how cool/good vibe-y Alola is. And it was not once or twice, a lot more.

I get what they are trying to sell and in the end it didn't change how I view the series overall, but it bother me in the sense it felt more like they were talking more than showing. What is kind sad is that Alola does have things that set itself apart but the constant need of reaffirming some of them kind of undermines what could be the beauty of it.

Granted, it's a kids show but still I think children are smart enough to pick some things in their own.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
That's, uh, kinda what I'm talking about. You liked it, and that's cool, but the fact they repeatedly hammer how different and special Alola is compared to every other region, rather than just letting you feel that way on your own is what I mean by it being rammed. Like, for comparison, I feel the XY group is a family, but the word "family" in regards to them is never uttered once (barring Bonnie and Clemont, of course). But in SM the word "family" is mentioned constantly, so that's what I mean by "rammed down the viewer's throats". It's not an indictment of the choice to have Alola feel special, but rather that it tried to leave no room for doubt, and if it didn't work for the viewer (which it didn't for me) it comes off as cloying rather than genuine.

And again, you had to literally strip Ash of one of his defining character traits to make it happen (he is a boy who cannot sit still or stay in one place for too long, something his mother has expressed is what's best about him), which to me impacts the overall message and tone. Hence the reason it feels like a forced win rather than a natural one.

The fact that apparently JN037 will show Ash with his Alolan friends, Pokémon and family (Kukui/Burnet) can mean than yes, Alola is special by Ash. He could have searched for Clemont and Bonnie, or Goodra during JN025 especially considering they flew over Lumiose City, but he didn't.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
You gotta love we've been waiting so much for Ash to win a league... And it had to be that league.

I'm not in the band who throws a tantrum about "it's not a real leagueeee!!!1!!!" but I do admit it feels kind of lackluster Ash's first league was the one who was handled like Alola's.
I’m in a similar position. I don’t have an issue with him winning here but I completely understand anyone who doesn’t like the fact that he won here or right it off for not being on the same caliber as past leagues even if I disagree.

That’s why I find the never ending debate about the League’s legitimacy annoying on both sides as I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel either way about it.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
The fact that apparently JN037 will show Ash with his Alolan friends, Pokémon and family (Kukui/Burnet) can mean than yes, Alola is special by Ash. He could have searched for Clemont and Bonnie, or Goodra during JN025 especially considering they flew over Lumiose City, but he didn't.
Or it could mean, I don't know, Tomiyasu is playing favorites, which given he's supposedly storyboarding the episode and it's written by Matsui and all kinda screams that over anything of Ash's decision.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Or it could mean, I don't know, Tomiyasu is playing favorites, which given he's supposedly storyboarding the episode and it's written by Matsui and all kinda screams that over anything of Ash's decision.

Not really, they could skip Melemele Island such as writers did with Lumiose city and its main airport.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
To me personally it felt that way on its own, I think you are being influenced too much by the fandom, they dont keep on saying the cast is a family or that alola is more special than other regions, just the fact its special coz of its unique culture as explained by the market lady in ep7. They definitely do not hammer that down in the series, its just the feeling you get by seeing how ash interacts with and lives there, which led to the fandom continously saying how much alola is like ashs second home, i think the fandom has hammered it down for you coz it is definitely not overstated in the actual show, this idea of how much alola is special to ash than the other region is prevalent in the fandom because the show makes us feel that naturally.
And no they did not change ashs wanderlust personality lol, whenever they went to a new place Ash still couldnt sit still and would immediately wanna explore it, in melemele island he was living in a home and attended school which had other adventures for him, thats like saying why does Ash stay in pallet town between regions and doesnt immediately explore kanto again. His wanderlust personality is retained
Just to clarify because I've gotten in way too many discussions over this, but there is a consistent stream and mention of "I love Alola", "Alola is really special", or even before the Kukui battle with Kukui going "Of course, he's part of the family!" or, even in Aether "We're the best team ever!". These are things past series never felt the need to hit you over the head with. Your attachment to it was derived through your perception rather than blatant statements of telling.

And um, the fact Ash even stayed in Melemele when he knew there was more of a region to explore automatically strips the wanderlust. Even TRio are confused by the change and then it's promptly never brought up again. In past series, Ash was the go-getter towards a goal. In SM, Ash was the passive "when it pops up and is convenient". The biggest shade we got of that was him going to Ula'ula.

Not really, they could skip Melemele Island such as writers did with Lumiose city and its main airport.
You're not disproving my point. Tomiyasu was director of SM. He is now Head Director of the current series. Ash is a fictional character who does what the director/writers want him to do. Thus, it is not Alola being special to Ash, but to Tomiyasu. Because, let's face it, you're right. We haven't seen any of Ash's Pokemon in Pallet despite being in Kanto and having been there not 6 episodes ago, yet we're seeing the Alola team. Why? Because Tomiyasu wanted to. Because it's special to him and he wants to make sure it's special to everyone else, regardless. So, again, favoritism on the production side that somehow is forced to translate to something being special in universe.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Just to clarify because I've gotten in way too many discussions over this, but there is a consistent stream and mention of "I love Alola", "Alola is really special", or even before the Kukui battle with Kukui going "Of course, he's part of the family!" or, even in Aether "We're the best team ever!". These are things past series never felt the need to hit you over the head with. Your attachment to it was derived through your perception rather than blatant statements of telling.

And um, the fact Ash even stayed in Melemele when he knew there was more of a region to explore automatically strips the wanderlust. Even TRio are confused by the change and then it's promptly never brought up again. In past series, Ash was the go-getter towards a goal. In SM, Ash was the passive "when it pops up and is convenient". The biggest shade we got of that was him going to Ula'ula.


You're not disproving my point. Tomiyasu was director of SM. He is now Head Director of the current series. Ash is a fictional character who does what the director/writers want him to do. Thus, it is not Alola being special to Ash, but to Tomiyasu. Because, let's face it, you're right. We haven't seen any of Ash's Pokemon in Pallet despite being in Kanto and having been there not 6 episodes ago, yet we're seeing the Alola team. Why? Because Tomiyasu wanted to. Because it's special to him and he wants to make sure it's special to everyone else, regardless. So, again, favoritism on the production side that somehow is forced to translate to something being special in universe.

We talk about the history perspectives, whatever thing is because writes did it. And by history perspectives, yes, Alola is Special for Ash.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I had the same perception. Several times I've noticed in the episodes how we'd have characters, and sometimes even Ash himself, reaffirming how cool/good vibe-y Alola is. And it was not once or twice, a lot more.

I get what they are trying to sell and in the end it didn't change how I view the series overall, but it bother me in the sense it felt more like they were talking more than showing. What is kind sad is that Alola does have things that set itself apart but the constant need of reaffirming some of them kind of undermines what could be the beauty of it.

Granted, it's a kids show but still I think children are smart enough to pick some things in their own.

Admittedly yeah, I guess the reason it didn't exceptionally bug me though is that not only did I feel that the whole neighbourly vibe to Alola were at least genuinely demonstrated to good level, but also I'm kinda used to the anime being exposition heavy. It has always stopped to have the cast talk up how awesome the new hot topic of each series is.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Just to clarify because I've gotten in way too many discussions over this, but there is a consistent stream and mention of "I love Alola", "Alola is really special", or even before the Kukui battle with Kukui going "Of course, he's part of the family!" or, even in Aether "We're the best team ever!". These are things past series never felt the need to hit you over the head with. Your attachment to it was derived through your perception rather than blatant statements of telling.

And um, the fact Ash even stayed in Melemele when he knew there was more of a region to explore automatically strips the wanderlust. Even TRio are confused by the change and then it's promptly never brought up again. In past series, Ash was the go-getter towards a goal. In SM, Ash was the passive "when it pops up and is convenient". The biggest shade we got of that was him going to Ula'ula.

Some few lines here and there doesn't mean its being forced down the throat, that would mean it's constantly non stop brought out in every episode in situations where it isn't even needed. The examples you mentioned aren't really forcing the idea of alola being special to ash, instead they are examples where he shows appreciation for alola because it is special to him now. Literally every saga has the squad going we are the best, again, I don't really see how it's forced when it is a natural progression for them to say that but alas, I guess we will have differing opinions on that

And again, ash was attending school there and had a home there for some time. He did end up exploring melemele island though. That's like saying why did ash remain at the summer camps in sinnoh or kalos for more than a day, shouldn't his wanderlust have him continuously moving? Just because someone has wanderlust doesn't mean they can't sit still at a place for some time for a required objective, it just means they are excited to always travel and see new places which ash still was
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
Or it could mean, I don't know, Tomiyasu is playing favorites, which given he's supposedly storyboarding the episode and it's written by Matsui and all kinda screams that over anything of Ash's decision.

Yeah, I've also noticed Tomiyasu seems to have way too much influence on Journeys. I recall Dephender mentioning how he showed up more for interviews about Journeys than Mr. Kodaira, who is the series' director.

Granted, that might be because Kodaira might be the reserved kind who don't like to engage on interviews and PR stuff much but I can't shake off the feeling that Tomiyasu is the one calling the shots.

And um, the fact Ash even stayed in Melemele when he knew there was more of a region to explore automatically strips the wanderlust. Even TRio are confused by the change and then it's promptly never brought up again. In past series, Ash was the go-getter towards a goal. In SM, Ash was the passive "when it pops up and is convenient". The biggest shade we got of that was him going to Ula'ula.

I don't really have a problem with Ash deciding to stick to one place. In the last XY episode he did mention about returning home to start from "zero" (noticing how the first episode post-flare arc and the final episode had "zero" in the original names). I can see Ash reaching a point where after 6 league campaigns, he just decided he's done doing the same things and would try something different for once. I think that's why he even decide to go to the Pokémon School. If he's starting from the scratch, might as well have go as far as go back to school as well (the Shudo novels did mention Ash used to attend school before turning ten and going on a journey).

On this, I praise Yajima for caring enough to set Ash up for next series just so the transition - specially one with such aesthetic changes - feels smoother.

You're not disproving my point. Tomiyasu was director of SM. He is now Head Director of the current series.

If I recall, Tomiyasu is now executive producer. The biggest role is still Yuyama's

Ash is a fictional character who does what the director/writers want him to do. Thus, it is not Alola being special to Ash, but to Tomiyasu. Because, let's face it, you're right. We haven't seen any of Ash's Pokemon in Pallet despite being in Kanto and having been there not 6 episodes ago, yet we're seeing the Alola team. Why? Because Tomiyasu wanted to. Because it's special to him and he wants to make sure it's special to everyone else, regardless. So, again, favoritism on the production side that somehow is forced to translate to something being special in universe.

Completly agreed
 

Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
That's, uh, kinda what I'm talking about. You liked it, and that's cool, but the fact they repeatedly hammer how different and special Alola is compared to every other region, rather than just letting you feel that way on your own is what I mean by it being rammed. Like, for comparison, I feel the XY group is a family, but the word "family" in regards to them is never uttered once (barring Bonnie and Clemont, of course). But in SM the word "family" is mentioned constantly, so that's what I mean by "rammed down the viewer's throats". It's not an indictment of the choice to have Alola feel special, but rather that it tried to leave no room for doubt, and if it didn't work for the viewer (which it didn't for me) it comes off as cloying rather than genuine.

And again, you had to literally strip Ash of one of his defining character traits to make it happen (he is a boy who cannot sit still or stay in one place for too long, something his mother has expressed is what's best about him), which to me impacts the overall message and tone. Hence the reason it feels like a forced win rather than a natural one.

I feel all of Ash companions/classmates from OS-PM are similar to him whether you say they're family or friends, I never seen anyone in whole SM series calling themselves as a family even though they're all close to each others, like Lana and Mallow shown as great siblings as May and Max or Clemont and bonnie shown but does anyone mentioned that? Ash and Kiawe had more chemistry than all past male companions, they're like bros who always compete with each others, they're not just rivals for Pokemon battles but also almost everything whether it was sport or doing other activities but I never seen anyone in SM series mentioned that they're brothers, Alola group throw a welcome party for Ash just because he join Pokemon school and even for celebrating Ash completing his first Grand trial, when Sophocle and togedemaru ha no food to eat all of them give part of their lunch to share, Ash telling Gladion that they can share their family problem with each others to solve it.

There are lots of ways to say that they're like families too but they didn't mention that in whole series unlike Bonnie did, only Ash and Kukui family relationship mentioned in whole series but at episode 141 only which was very close to the end of SM, even without that anyone who watch the series can clearly see their farher-son dynamic.
 
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Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
What does it matter what Kotaku's writers say? They get paid to write about anime and video games so of course they talk about Pokemon but that doesn't make them the authority on the Pokemon anime so who cares what they think about the series whether good or bad?

And sure maybe some people who heard about Ash's Alola league victory felt that it was deserved and about time, but I bet most of those people didn't actually watch the finale of the league and only heard about it from social media or news sites that made a big deal about the victory. It helps that most of the latter sites over-rated Ash's win by making up claims that Ash was now a Pokemon Master i.e. clickbait.

My point is that older members of the fandom being mad about the Kalos league situation doesn't translate to those same people sticking around for the Alola league because it's more likely that they outgrew the series and moved on by the time Ash actually won the Alola league. So it doesn't seem right to say that Ash was made to win the Alola league because of fan complaints.

Kotaku was known to reinforce the stereotype that Ash will never win a League in Internet culture, and it was one of many Internet news site that repeated this mantra for fans and casual audiences alike. Even if you didn't grew up with the Kalos League, you most certainly heard of it by older fans if you hadn't check the Internet already.

And the anime has been around for over 20 years. Long enough for the first generation of Pokémon fans to become the writers and directors of the series they grew up with. Long enough for them to have their own children to watch Pokémon with. And the anime doesn't shy away from older fans. Why else would Brock and Misty show up after years of absence? Why else would there be an official video promoting the Alola League... by showcasing all the other Pokémon Leagues that Ash has partaken?

The anime was not made in a vacuum. And even if the Kalos fans did move on (I have my doubts), what makes you think the Alola fans would be more accepting of Ash losing in Alola in this Information Age?
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
Tetsuo Yajima - the director of the XY anime and now director of the movies since Power of Us and excluding M22) - has said he grew up with Pokémon himself.
 

Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
Series Director Tomiyasu Daiki probably made the decision at the beginning of the series and then tried to get it accepted by his superiors up until the time came to plan the episodes. That the series in general continually tried to do new things definitely shows a willingness on Tomiyasu's part to say "the series can change while not ending."


Edit: Tomiyasu is Sou-kantoku (chief director). This is the role that Yuyama had up until the 2019 series. Yuyama is now known as 'animation supervisor', which is not to be confused with 'sakuga kantoku', which I usually translate as 'animation supervisor'.

Anyway, the chief director role usually exists with a director (kantoku) role because there is too much work for just one or the chief is somehow less hands on. My guess is that Kodaira is doing the hands-on work and Tomiyasu is being the face for the franchise? That or the production is a mess due to a lack of pre-production and Kodaira was needed as a sort of Assistant Series Director like they were on SM but was given a bigger title for this series.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I feel all of Ash companions/classmates from OS-PM are similar to him whether you say they're family or friends, I never seen anyone in whole SM series calling themselves as a family even though they're all close to each others, like Lana and Mallow shown as great siblings as May and Max or Clemont and bonnie shown but does anyone mentioned that? Ash and Kiawe had more chemistry than all past male companions, they're like bros who always compete with each others, they're not just rivals for Pokemon battles but also almost everything whether it was sport or doing other activities but I never seen anyone in SM series mentioned that they're brothers, Alola group throw a welcome party for Ash just because he join Pokemon school and even for celebrating Ash completing his first Grand trial, when Sophocle and togedemaru ha no food to eat all of them give part of their lunch to share, Ash telling Gladion that they can share their family problem with each others to solve it.

There are lots of ways to say that they're like families too but they didn't mention that in whole series unlike Bonnie did, only Ash and Kukui family relationship mentioned in whole series but at episode 141 only which was very close to the end of SM, even without that anyone who watch the series can clearly see their farher-son dynamic.

I feel like the one area they were maybe a bit more on the nose about were the actual Pokemon themselves, though I have to say I didn't really mind that, since I liked seeing a closer relationship with all the Pokemon teams in that series and them acting more like a bunch of siblings (or pets within the same household). I mean let's face it, Pikachu is the perennial middle child Pokemon, always looking out for the babies and dealing with his aloof older teammates.

I think what maybe also diluted the cloying nature a bit was how characters like Ash tended to mangle this sentiment a bit, with weird phrasing or 'Buffy-speak', it was a bit like Winnie the Pooh where the cuteness is much easier to swallow hidden beneath the comical personality injected into it.
 
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