Where is all this Ash love coming from?

[TheNewGuy]

So during the summer of 2010 most people here wanted Ash to be replaced and for us to get a new lead in DP saying he sucks etc. However now when the chance of new lead drops people somehow love Ash and hate the idea of him leaving? Am I missing something or is this one of those cases where people want what they can't get but when they have it they don't want it things?

A hell of a lot changes in 10 years. You can get sort of Stockholm Syndrome'd into liking a character if you hang around with him along enough.

 

[Ignition]

Ash is the eternal underdog so when you finally see him prevail, you can’t help but feel proud

 

[game3524]

Here's a bigger sample sizes for you

https://myanimelist.net/anime/31592/Pokemon_XY_Z?q=Pokemon XY

https://myanimelist.net/anime/34034/Pokemon_Sun___Moon?q=Pokemon Sun

You sure want to use these metrics to boast how popular XYZ was?

According to these metrics, Best Wishes was more popular then XYZ (BW ranked 1743 in terms of popularity, while XYZ was 1958)

 

[Redstar45]

You sure want to use these metrics to boast how popular XYZ was?

According to these metrics, Best Wishes was more popular then XYZ (BW ranked 1743 in terms of popularity, while XYZ was 1958)

Okay we get a bw/xy/sm appreciate threads in anime forum and with a what is wrong with bw/xy/sm threads awhile at too ? This getting real old fast .

 

[game3524]

Okay we get a bw/xy/sm appreciate threads in anime forum and with a what is wrong with bw/xy/sm threads awhile at too ? This getting real old fast .

I have no idea what your point is.

The point I was making is that using these metrics to measure popularity was silly.

 

[Redstar45]

I have no idea what your point is.

The point I was making is that using this metrics to measure popularity was silly.

My point this xy bash and other stuff need to end as it getting less interested as time goes on

 

[Doppelgänger]

XY hate is just going to get more intense with Galar, especially if it's a similar type of series. You're going to have to deal with it. This is a fan base that continues to complain about Tobias a decade and Championship after he appeared.

 

[TheWanderingMist]

XY hate is just going to get more intense with Galar, especially if it's a similar type of series. You're going to have to deal with it. This is a fan base that continues to complain about Tobias a decade and Championship after he appeared.

I mean, I hate DP, but I love Tobias. He's hilarious.

 

[NesRemix]

XY hate is just going to get more intense with Galar, especially if it's a similar type of series. You're going to have to deal with it. This is a fan base that continues to complain about Tobias a decade and Championship after he appeared.

It's mostly the sagas in the middle that tend to be forgotten about overtime. Kanto and to a lesser extent Orange will always be remembered because they're the most watched, but everything that gets shoved in the middle like johto, AG, nowadays DP, BW and soon XY will all get overlooked soon enough. People usually just talk about whatever the current saga is and the one directly before, then when the next saga starts it's forgotten. For example when XY was airing I remember DP being largely overshadowed by it, it's only nowadays that we're 3 years removed from XY that DP fans are now talking about it again

 

[Redstar45]

XY hate is just going to get more intense with Galar, especially if it's a similar type of series. You're going to have to deal with it. This is a fan base that continues to complain about Tobias a decade and Championship after he appeared.

What about sm then ? they got lots of the hated too you know ?

 

[Doppelgänger]

What about sm then ? they got lots of the hated too you know ?

Most of the hate is superficial and heavily tied to Kalos League salt. The arguments sound tired because they're the exact same preseries complaints, meaning the people who parrot them didn't watch the show. People who complain and refuse to watch it are trolls.

What you're calling hate is legitimate criticism from people who watched XY, and it stings because it's well articulated. Serena is one of the worst written heroines in Pokemon and she is commonly seen as a sexist projection of Tetsuo Yajima. That has nothing to do with the "superficial" complaint that is her infatuation with Ash. Amourshipping is a symptom, not the illness.

A number of the complaints against SM will also be remedied with continuity into Galar. Unfinished or unsatisfying characters like Lillie or Mallow, the amateurish nature of the Alola League and the so-called "status quo" can all be washed away if SM ties into SS. That will make SM difficult to criticize like how the Hoenn segment of AG is tough to criticize because of the Battle Frontier.

 

[NesRemix]

A number of the complaints against SM will also be remedied with continuity into Galar. Unfinished or unsatisfying characters like Lillie or Mallow, the amateurish nature of the Alola League and the so-called "status quo" can all be washed away if SM ties into SS. That will make SM difficult to criticize like how the Hoenn segment of AG is tough to criticize because of the Battle Frontier.

We don't know if it will though. SS could not have anything to do with SM, or Lillie/Mallow, etc. Likewise most of Hoenn was just viewed as a huge improvement over Johto at the time, so even if it doesn't stand out much *now*, back then everything Hoenn was doing was new and fresh at the time and that the show never did before. The intro of May and the Contests by far made the biggest impact in the series at the time, not only because Misty left, but that the writers actually divided screentime up between Ash and a female companion with their own goal, something never done before. I think nearly 20 years later people forgot how big a deal that was, because aside from Misty/Brock getting to star in some fillers here and there, we've never seen the writers take a considerable amount of screentime away from Ash to give to a female companion before. AG really felt like night and day compared to Johto at the time, especially for those of us original fans who weren't expecting much to change.

 

[AznKei]

What you're calling hate is legitimate criticism from people who watched XY, and it stings because it's well articulated. Serena is one of the worst written heroines in Pokemon and she is commonly seen as a sexist projection of Tetsuo Yajima. That has nothing to do with the "superficial" complaint that is her infatuation with Ash. Amourshipping is a symptom, not the illness.

I wished they could make more episodes like the Skidoo racing and her Eevee debut episodes, I liked her character because of these, in which I based from my Serena fan project. It irritated me that the writers made fun of her battle records, she deserved better than this.

 

[Doppelgänger]

The complaints are still valid whether or not SS takes characters from SM. But people will be less focused or concerned about them if the plotlines are later resolved in Galar.

I've never seen a single person be salty about Ash losing in the Hoenn League, or not evolving Grovyle into a Sceptile. This is because he came close in the Hoenn League, won the greater achievement in the Battle Frontier, and evolved Grovyle during that story arc. It was unabashedly Ash's most successful region(s) prior to Alola. Nobody thinks AG ended at the Hoenn League and everything afterward is filler.

XY was self contained and the unsatisfying story arcs can never resolve because the writers quarantined it from the rest of the canon. Greninja can never recover from the Kalos League loss - he failed to reach his goal and won't get another chance. Serena kissing Ash means she can never travel with him again without Ash accepting her as his girlfriend, which cannot happen between 10 year olds.

This is why it feels magical, surreal even that Dusk Lycanroc was the Pokemon who brought Ash to the promised land. Nobody in the real world thought he could do it. He had a lot in common with other "failure" aces from the past and was at a disadvantage against Midnight. Winning through sheer guts/perseverance is a metaphor for Ash as a character throughout the ages. Since the anime had repeatedly reinforced the idea through Ash losses that hard work and determination aren't a recipe for success, it's stunning to see the impossible happen before your very eyes.

 

[Redstar45]

The complaints are still valid whether or not SS takes characters from SM. But people will be less focused or concerned about them if the plotlines are later resolved in Galar.

I've never seen a single person be salty about Ash losing in the Hoenn League, or not evolving Grovyle into a Sceptile. This is because he came close in the Hoenn League, won the greater achievement in the Battle Frontier, and evolved Grovyle during that story arc. It was unabashedly Ash's most successful region(s) prior to Alola. Nobody thinks AG ended at the Hoenn League and everything afterward is filler.

XY was self contained and the unsatisfying story arcs can never resolve because the writers quarantined it from the rest of the canon. Greninja can never recover from the Kalos League loss - he failed to reach his goal and won't get another chance. Serena kissing Ash means she can never travel with him again without Ash accepting her as his girlfriend, which cannot happen between 10 year olds.

This is why it feels magical, surreal even that Dusk Lycanroc was the Pokemon who brought Ash to the promised land. Nobody in the real world thought he could do it. He had a lot in common with other "failure" aces from the past and was at a disadvantage against Midnight. Winning through sheer guts/perseverance is a metaphor for Ash as a character throughout the ages. Since the anime had repeatedly reinforced the idea through Ash losses that hard work and determination aren't a recipe for success, it's stunning to see the impossible happen before your very eyes.

Other word sm is cool .....to point of it won't be able to criticize it ? Stupid sm is god now !

 

[game3524]

My point this xy bash and other stuff need to end as it getting less interested as time goes on

Ok, what does this have to do with my point? I wasn't bashing XYZ, I was pointing out the flaws in the metrics the OP was using.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Other word sm is cool .....to point of it won't be able to criticize it ? Stupid sm is god now !

tl;dr

-Ash winning the Pokemon League makes up for SM's minor problems
-SM's major problems will be ignored if fixed in SS
-XY's major problems can't be fixed, are difficult to ignore and greatly upset people

 

[Jeal]

Most of the hate is superficial and heavily tied to Kalos League salt. The arguments sound tired because they're the exact same preseries complaints, meaning the people who parrot them didn't watch the show. People who complain and refuse to watch it are trolls.

What you're calling hate is legitimate criticism from people who watched XY, and it stings because it's well articulated. Serena is one of the worst written heroines in Pokemon and she is commonly seen as a sexist projection of Tetsuo Yajima. That has nothing to do with the "superficial" complaint that is her infatuation with Ash. Amourshipping is a symptom, not the illness.

A number of the complaints against SM will also be remedied with continuity into Galar. Unfinished or unsatisfying characters like Lillie or Mallow, the amateurish nature of the Alola League and the so-called "status quo" can all be washed away if SM ties into SS. That will make SM difficult to criticize like how the Hoenn segment of AG is tough to criticize because of the Battle Frontier.

Lol, ok. I don't usually get in fights over series vs series, because it's pointless. Everyone is entitled to opinion. But there are some things in your post that are simply wrong.

First, ''legitimate criticism''. Obviously XY have many flaws, I've already pointed out a few. But some of the complaints against XY are lies, like Ash having no 'personality'. If you hate the idea of him being a badass, okay, it's your right, but don't invent things to criticize the show.

Second, the hatred for Serena. True, she's not the best written character, I give it to you. But let's see, one of the main complaints against her is her delay in catching the second pokemon. She got Pancham on XY047. SM girls took over 90 episodes, and with the exception of Lana, they didn't even officially catch. But you don't see a lot of people complaining about it, right? Another thing, the '' goal ''. Serena's goal is said to be horrible, but at least it gave her something to do(unlike Mallow's and Lana's). Serena's problems don't matter when it's SM girls, right?

Yes, shipping is one of the biggest reasons for criticism of Serena. She is hated for anti-shipper and other shippers. Take off the shipping, and she probably would be ignored like the SM girls.

Third, f SS fixes SM problems, that will be SS merit, not SM. SM will continue to be criticized for problems, SS will receive praise.

Battle Frontier and Hoenn are part of the same series.

 

[Power Up]

I haven't read hilarity in a while.

You sure want to use these metrics to boast how popular XYZ was?

According to these metrics, Best Wishes was more popular then XYZ (BW ranked 1743 in terms of popularity, while XYZ was 1958)

Way to miss the point lol. Please check the ratings of both series. And while you're at it, check the ratings of all the other Pokemon series as well. Of course XY is going to be less watched than BW, just like how BW was less watched than DP....

Most of the hate is superficial and heavily tied to Kalos League salt. The arguments sound tired because they're the exact same preseries complaints, meaning the people who parrot them didn't watch the show. People who complain and refuse to watch it are trolls.

What you're calling hate is legitimate criticism from people who watched XY, and it stings because it's well articulated. Serena is one of the worst written heroines in Pokemon and she is commonly seen as a sexist projection of Tetsuo Yajima. That has nothing to do with the "superficial" complaint that is her infatuation with Ash. Amourshipping is a symptom, not the illness.

A number of the complaints against SM will also be remedied with continuity into Galar. Unfinished or unsatisfying characters like Lillie or Mallow, the amateurish nature of the Alola League and the so-called "status quo" can all be washed away if SM ties into SS. That will make SM difficult to criticize like how the Hoenn segment of AG is tough to criticize because of the Battle Frontier.

I question your integrity when you post this kind of nonsense. Didn't I already point out the severe flaws in your arguments several times in the past? You seem to be able to talk the talk, but when it comes to walking the walk and actually justifying the trollish comments you make on a daily bases, you sound like a troll.

And no, rarely do I see well-articulated criticism of XY. What I see is people who haven't seemed to have actually watched the series. You know, the same thing you accuse people regarding SM?

-Serena is one of the worst written heroines in Pokemon

Please justify yourself. Please give arguments. There isn't a shred of justification when you made this point. Hence, this is an opinion and one I'm not going to take seriously at all

- she is commonly seen as a sexist projection of Tetsuo Yajima

Proof? Who sees her just as a sexist projection of Yajima besides you? What makes her a sexist projection?

Let's talk about examples showing that the other girls are sexist projections

-Dawn, she wore a cheerleading outfit when cheering on Ash. Wow, such objectification and sexism.
-May, she was seen as a weak Pokemon trainer and had to be mentored by a guy. Wow, such objectification and sexism

I could go on, and no, anyone who presses me on the issue, I don't actually believe that Dawn or May are sexist objectifications. Yes, Pokemon has chosen to go with the more feminine route more times than they've gone the other, this is no way means the characters are sexist objectifications lol

The complaints are still valid whether or not SS takes characters from SM. But people will be less focused or concerned about them if the plotlines are later resolved in Galar.

I've never seen a single person be salty about Ash losing in the Hoenn League, or not evolving Grovyle into a Sceptile. This is because he came close in the Hoenn League, won the greater achievement in the Battle Frontier, and evolved Grovyle during that story arc. It was unabashedly Ash's most successful region(s) prior to Alola. Nobody thinks AG ended at the Hoenn League and everything afterward is filler.

XY was self contained and the unsatisfying story arcs can never resolve because the writers quarantined it from the rest of the canon. Greninja can never recover from the Kalos League loss - he failed to reach his goal and won't get another chance. Serena kissing Ash means she can never travel with him again without Ash accepting her as his girlfriend, which cannot happen between 10 year olds.

This is why it feels magical, surreal even that Dusk Lycanroc was the Pokemon who brought Ash to the promised land. Nobody in the real world thought he could do it. He had a lot in common with other "failure" aces from the past and was at a disadvantage against Midnight. Winning through sheer guts/perseverance is a metaphor for Ash as a character throughout the ages. Since the anime had repeatedly reinforced the idea through Ash losses that hard work and determination aren't a recipe for success, it's stunning to see the impossible happen before your very eyes.

Ignoring that it directly happened after BW? You really seem to banking on assumptions. Will you eat your words when Greninja and Serena come back?

tl;dr

-Ash winning the Pokemon League makes up for SM's minor problems
-SM's major problems will be ignored if fixed in SS
-XY's major problems can't be fixed, are difficult to ignore and greatly upset people

tl:dr of hilarity

- no backing up of points
- accusing others of not watching series when it seems user has not watched XY
- making far-reaching assumptions

Why are XY's major problems again? Can you give specific statements with proof from the show? You did say criticism was well-articulated right? Enlighten me

SM winning the " Pokemon league " does not make up for its major problems and if XY was so greatly hated, I wonder why it still stands as the highest rated Pokemon series of all time?

 

[Kuzehiko]

if XY was so greatly hated, I wonder why it still stands as the highest rated Pokemon series of all time?

I like XY a lot but I even myself need to see proof to this statement. Can you link me to it please?