Where Johto went wrong

[munchlaxboy]

No one is a bigger fan of the Original Series than me, and that includes Kanto, Orange Islands, and all of Johto.

However, Johto is widely considered a flawed saga. Now, I LOVE Johto, every season of it. My nostalgic mind still considers it better than any saga that followed it. However, it does rank below Kanto and Orange Islands for me. The Johto seasons have mixed reviews by fans, but I think it seems that most view them as anywhere from bad to downright dreadful. And I can understand why.

What was wrong with Johto?

1. Too much Kanto
While the writers were smart to ditch Charizard, Squirtle, and Bulbasaur, Kanto Pokemon seemed to dominate Johto. Just look at the league -- Ash's Kanto Pokemon got the spotlight while Bayleef, Cyndaquil, and Totodile got tossed aside. They had their moments, but the league was all about the Kanto Pokemon. It wasn't a horrible thing to give the Kanto Pokemon their time to shine in important battles as they had more experience, but that leads to my next point...

2. Not enough development of Johto Pokemon
I think it would be fair to say that Ash's Johto Pokemon have received inferior treatment to basically all of his other Pokemon from any generation. Bayleef had her moments, I'll give the writers that. But Cyndaquil should've evolved IN JOHTO. It proved itself to be strong enough then to evolve, and Ash even brought up it's evolution during a late Johto episode. Totodile was an awesome, entertaining Pokemon, but hardly had a chance to participate in any battles. Noctowl was in the same boat as Totodile, and it only got one good battle which was against Morty. Phanpy (my personal favorite Pokemon) would later get redeemed in the Battle Frontier.

3. Misty and Brock
There was a fair share of Johto episodes (especially in Johto League Champions) where Misty and Brock seemed to just be shadows in the background, throwing in a few lines and then shutting up. The writers didn't develop their goals all that much either. Brock got the Stantler episode early on, and Misty got the Whirl Cup. That entire Whirl Islands mini-saga should've been totally given over to Misty in furthering her goal in becoming a Water Pokemon Master, and Brock should've had more episodes dedicated to his goal of being the World's Greatest Pokemon Breeder.

4. Fillers
Especially in Johto League Champions. Fillers up the wazoo. However, contrary to popular belief, FILLER IS NOT BAD. In fact, some of the best Pokemon episodes EVER are fillers. "The School of Hard Knocks", "Pikachu's Goodbye", and "The Pi-Kahuna" are just a few. However, Johto fillers were mostly just straight-up boring. There was no fun to them. It was mostly just showcase a Johto Pokemon and that's it. That's not to say Johto didn't have GREAT fillers -- "The Little Big Horn" and "The Fortune Hunters" were downright fantastic. But they weren't enough to make up for the dozens of other iffy fillers. A series needs filler, but Johto had too much and too little fun with them.

5. Rivalries
Gary made hardly any appearances. It was a relief to see him once in a while, but the rivalry kind of fizzled a bit. Thank goodness for the Silver Conference. But his lack of appearances really did hurt the rivalry a bit. Casey also could've gotten screentime, but oh well. I don't think many people liked her anyway haha. All I'm saying is that Johto needed more rivalries and BETTER rivalries. And maybe not such for Ash, either. Misty and Brock could've had one, too!

6. Stagnation
Goldeen, Geodude, Onix, and Vulpix. These guys hardly got a chance to breathe. Goldeen should've just been left at the Cerulean Gym, and HORSEA should've came back and evolved into KINGDRA. Would've been perfect. Vulpix had her time in Kanto and had become Brock's signature Pokemon. It was bad enough that he let her go, but if you re-watch that episode, poor little Vulpix got a pretty terrible, unemotional sendoff. I was actually saddened by that episode because of its LACK of emotions and I felt bad for Vulpix. Brock didn't seem to mind leaving it so much as he minded leaving Suzy again. Easily my least favorite episode of the Original Series, and by far the worst written.

7. TOGEPI
Togepi deserves a point all on its own. After over 200 episodes, it was still getting treated like a baby. It peaked at the Orange Islands and went downhill as time went on in Johto. As a Johto Pokemon that was always out of the Pokeball and one of Misty's signature Pokemon, it should've been her best-treated Pokemon. But it forever remained a baby until it evolved in HOENN. It is a true disgrace to Togepi and especially Misty that the little egg didn't evolve back in Johto. If it had evolved in Johto, it would have been a perfect moment to showcase both its development and Misty's development. But no.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

What made the Original Series so fantastic and, in my opinion, better than the other sagas was the group dynamic. It doesn't get better than Ash, Misty, and Brock. This dynamic lost a little luster but was still great in Johto, and that's what kept the saga afloat. And it's the reason I still love Johto. However, the saga had SO MUCH POTENTIAL. It had twice the episodes of Kanto, and could've been twice the fun. But instead, it had too many flaws to become truly amazing to the masses.

What's everyone else's opinion of Johto? What did it do right or wrong? What could've been done to save it?

 

[CyberCubed]

The biggest problems for me:

1) GS ball being dropped with no resolution. Why they couldn't just make a filler around Master Quest with a different Celebi popping out of the ball is beyond me. We've seen more than one of each legendary countless times.

2) Ash's Johto pokemon just felt like poor replacements for the classic Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard team. Cyndaquil had no hope of ever being as popular as Charizard, Totodile wasn't as cool as Squirtle, and while Bayleef was alright, Bulbasaur was just Ash's original tough starter.

3) Too much filler. The saga should have only been 2 seasons long with maybe the extra time until R/S came out converted into another filler arc like Orange Islands. In fact the only reason all that Johto filler existed was the writers had to waste time until the Ruby/Sapphire games came out.

4) And yeah, for the final saga where Misty/Brock/Gary were actually relevant, the writers didn't do as much with any of them as they should have. Johto was Misty and Gary's final saga as major characters, and even though Brock stayed for Hoenn and Sinnoh, he just became a dull background character. You would think Ash's original travel companions and first rival would get a better sendoff.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Really, it's the filler that I see as the main problem with the saga. That really brought it down for a lot of people, IMO, and understandably so.

However, I liked it despite all its numerous faults, personally. Whether it has to do with TR being hilarious in some of them, getting some good char development episodes like "Ignorance is Blissey," or just some of the episodes keeping my interest due to how plain silly they were, I don't know. There was something there that kept me entertained, though, and I liked it.

The thing is, when Johto had a good episode, it was fantastic: look no further than "Charizard's Burning Ambitions," "Little Big Horn," (like you said) or "For Ho-Oh the Bells Toll!" and the like for one thing.

However, when it flopped, it flopped badly, like some of the terrible fillers in the Johto League Champions arc (again, like you said) where nothing of consequence occurred in most of them.

The other problem was the stagnation with some of the Pokemon.

I will say, though, that Brock is like a GOD in Johto compared to what's done to him later on in Sinnoh (although he's still good enough in Hoenn because he actually does stuff rather than being in the background flirting, cooking, and the like 75% of the time, he battles against other trainers and Ash a little bit more frequently than later on, and his Pokemon team is actually pretty decent as well as well varied-- he just starts getting a bit boring there, but that's nothing, IMO).

Misty was done decently, but she could have been done better. I didn't mind too much, seeing as despite her violent temper getting toned down, she still had some great Pokemon like a Politoed later on and the whole Whirl Cup Arc to consider as achievements.

 

[munchlaxboy]

The biggest problems for me:

1) GS ball being dropped with no resolution. Why they couldn't just make a filler around Master Quest with a different Celebi popping out of the ball is beyond me. We've seen more than one of each legendary countless times.

2) Ash's Johto pokemon just felt like poor replacements for the classic Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard team. Cyndaquil had no hope of ever being as popular as Charizard, Totodile wasn't as cool as Squirtle, and while Bayleef was alright, Bulbasaur was just Ash's original tough starter.

3) Too much filler. The saga should have only been 2 seasons long with maybe the extra time until R/S came out converted into another filler arc like Orange Islands. In fact the only reason all that Johto filler existed was the writers had to waste time until the Ruby/Sapphire games came out.

4) And yeah, for the final saga where Misty/Brock/Gary were actually relevant, the writers didn't do as much with any of them as they should have. Johto was Misty and Gary's final saga as major characters, and even though Brock stayed for Hoenn and Sinnoh, he just became a dull background character. You would think Ash's original travel companions and first rival would get a better sendoff.

1. Can't believe I forgot about the GS Ball. It was Ash's whole reason for going to the ORANGE ISLANDS and JOHTO. But nope, they just ditched it. Hard to believe that they just let it go.

2. I think Cyndaquil was doomed from the start as the next Fire type, but I thought Totodile was a good character. It had one of the biggest personalities of any Ash Pokemon ever. It got some filler attention but nowhere near enough battling time. I think they should've evolved Bayleef into Meganium just based on how much it was used and how it seemed to be Ash's main Johto Pokemon.

3. I wouldn't have minded all of the filler if is was just more entertaining. "The Fortune Hunters" is one of my favorite episodes of all-time. If they made the other fillers half as entertaining, it'd be hard to complain about filler.

4. While Master Quest did make up for a lot of the lost ground, it was too little too late. Definitely could've gotten a better sendoff. And looking back it's truly despicable that Misty found out she was leaving and left all within ONE episode. I forget what my reaction was when I was little, but that's just downright insulting to the viewers to have a character leave so abruptly. Not using the Internet so much at the time, most had no idea it was coming.

Really, it's the filler that I see as the main problem with the saga. That really brought it down for a lot of people, IMO, and understandably so.

However, I liked it despite all its numerous faults, personally. Whether it has to do with TR being hilarious in some of them, getting some good char development episodes like "Ignorance is Blissey," or just some of the episodes keeping my interest due to how plain silly they were, I don't know. There was something there that kept me entertained, though, and I liked it.

The thing is, when Johto had a good episode, it was fantastic: look no further than "Charizard's Burning Ambitions," "Little Big Horn," (like you said) or "For Ho-Oh the Bells Toll!" and the like for one thing.

However, when it flopped, it flopped badly, like some of the terrible fillers in the Johto League Champions arc (again, like you said) where nothing of consequence occurred in most of them.

The other problem was the stagnation with some of the Pokemon.

I will say, though, that Brock is like a GOD in Johto compared to what's done to him later on in Sinnoh (although he's still good enough in Hoenn because he actually does stuff rather than being in the background flirting, cooking, and the like 75% of the time, he battles against other trainers and Ash a little bit more frequently than later on, and his Pokemon team is actually pretty decent as well as well varied-- he just starts getting a bit boring there, but that's nothing, IMO).

Misty was done decently, but she could have been done better. I didn't mind too much, seeing as despite her violent temper getting toned down, she still had some great Pokemon like a Politoed later on and the whole Whirl Cup Arc to consider as achievements.

We're on the same page here with basically everything haha. One thing I didn't point out that you did was the TRTrio, and like Ash, Misty, and Brock, their character dynamic stayed intact and didn't lose too much steam.

I guess you could kinda say I loved the Original Series more for the "character" aspect of the show rather than the actual "Pokemon battling" and the later sagas would tend to focus on.

Although the entirety of Original Series was an advertisement, as is the rest of the show, it felt like less of one back then. It felt more like "a TV show with Pokemon" rather than "Pokemon on a TV Show". And that's why I still loved Johto.

After all of these years, that bolded statement perfectly sums up my opinion on the Pokemon Anime. Took me long enough to put it into words!

 

[Grei]

Too much stagnation with not enough Johto Pokemon development. This is really no different from basically every single saga after Kanto, but Ash's Pokemon didn't get the development they needed. Noctowl was cool, so we saw it a lot. Heracross was neat, but was switched out when Noctowl came along. I liked that Bulbasaur was on Ash's team initially, and that sort of thing should happen in sagas now (Pokemon like Gible, Scraggy, etc. should be brought into new regions), but Cyber has a point in saying that Ash's Johto Pokemon were ultimately overshadowed by his Kanto partners.

Could have been alleviated if they had given each Pokemon a significant number of episodes dedicated toward its development (and I think if Ash had gotten a Meganium or Typhlosion, it wouldn't have been difficult for them to stand outside of the shadow of his Kanto starters). For as long as Ash stuck around in Johto, there wasn't much going on, and a lot of that time could have been spent on Ash training his Pokemon.

The biggest problems for me:

1) GS ball being dropped with no resolution. Why they couldn't just make a filler around Master Quest with a different Celebi popping out of the ball is beyond me. We've seen more than one of each legendary countless times.

2) Ash's Johto pokemon just felt like poor replacements for the classic Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard team. Cyndaquil had no hope of ever being as popular as Charizard, Totodile wasn't as cool as Squirtle, and while Bayleef was alright, Bulbasaur was just Ash's original tough starter.

3) Too much filler. The saga should have only been 2 seasons long with maybe the extra time until R/S came out converted into another filler arc like Orange Islands. In fact the only reason all that Johto filler existed was the writers had to waste time until the Ruby/Sapphire games came out.

4) And yeah, for the final saga where Misty/Brock/Gary were actually relevant, the writers didn't do as much with any of them as they should have. Johto was Misty and Gary's final saga as major characters, and even though Brock stayed for Hoenn and Sinnoh, he just became a dull background character. You would think Ash's original travel companions and first rival would get a better sendoff.

You say really similar things about Sinnoh and Unova, and yet you still claim that this is a good anime?

 

[PokemonNation2000]

We're on the same page here with basically everything haha. One thing I didn't point out that you did was the TRTrio, and like Ash, Misty, and Brock, their character dynamic stayed intact and didn't lose too much steam.

I guess you could kinda say I loved the Original Series more for the "character" aspect of the show rather than the actual "Pokemon battling" and the later sagas would tend to focus on.

Although the entirety of Original Series was an advertisement, as is the rest of the show, it felt like less of one back then. It felt more like "a TV show with Pokemon" rather than "Pokemon on a TV Show". And that's why I still loved Johto.

After all of these years, that bolded statement perfectly sums up my opinion on the Pokemon Anime. Took me long enough to put it into words!

Exactly, and I couldn't agree more on all accounts, man.

 

[phanpycross]

Ash´s johto pokemon was barely used in gym battles, i still feel like they should do a pokemon origins where ash uses his johto pokemon.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Ash´s johto pokemon was barely used in gym battles, i still feel like they should do a pokemon origins where ash uses his johto pokemon.

Nope, that's not true:

- In the Violet City Gym battle with Falkner, Ash used his Chikorita against Falkner's Hoothoot. I will give you we had his Charizard win the battle against Pidgeot to win this battle, so I'll give you this one halfway.

- In the Azalea City Gym battle with Bugsy, Ash used both his Chikorita and Cyndaquil against Bugsy's Metapod and his Scyther: Cyndaquil helped him win this battle.

- In the Goldenrod Gym battle with Whitney, Ash used his Cyndaquil and Totodile predominantly (w/Pikachu like in the Azalea City Gym), which helped him defeat Whitney's Miltank in "A Dairy Tale Ending!"

- In the Ecruteak City Gym battle, Ash used his Cyndaquil, several of his Johto Pokemon, and Noctowl in his battle with Morty: Noctowl helped him win this battle by defeating Morty's Gengar.

Really, I could go on all day showing how that claim is false. Johto had its faults, but this was most certainly not one of them.

 

[LizardonX]

Other. They released charizard

I would have been perfectly fine with a final team of

Pikachu
Noctowl
Charizard
Bayleef
Tododile
Heracross

But they had to give ash cyndaquil when he clearly never needed it and then oaked heracross so bulbasaur can get even more unecessary and overblown glorification.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Other. They released charizard

I would have been perfectly fine with a final team of

Pikachu
Noctowl
Charizard
Bayleef
Tododile
Heracross

But they had to give ash cyndaquil when he clearly never needed it and then oaked heracross so bulbasaur can get even more unecessary and overblown glorification.

^I agree with this myself, but the Charizard release episode was nice itself, but I don't think it should have occurred.^

 

[munchlaxboy]

Other. They released charizard

I would have been perfectly fine with a final team of

Pikachu
Noctowl
Charizard
Bayleef
Tododile
Heracross

But they had to give ash cyndaquil when he clearly never needed it and then oaked heracross so bulbasaur can get even more unecessary and overblown glorification.

But Ash NEEDED to release Charizard. It was too powerful. Ash would've just relied on it and used it in every gym battle. That wouldn't have been any fun at all.

The Johto Pokemon got the short end of the stick as it is -- can't imagine how much more they would've been shunned with Charizard reigning over them.

 

[Lorde]

Why they couldn't just make a filler around Master Quest with a different Celebi popping out of the ball is beyond me. We've seen more than one of each legendary countless times.

Given that the Celebi movie would have been the most recent movie during the Master Quest arc, I really doubt the writers would have wanted to introduce another Celebi. It would've been too soon. Honestly though, I didn't care about the GS Ball thing. It always seemed more like a plot device to get Ash to the Orange Islands and then to Johto than anything else. I probably would have been disappointed even if the GS Ball side plot had a proper conclusion because the writers ruined many things in Johto anyway.

I personally thought Johto was a mess because of the emphasis on Kanto Pokemon. It just seemed like we got more episodes that showcased Kanto Pokemon than Johto Pokemon. And the fillers were also bad for the most part, although I'll admit that I have about a dozen favorites that were better than some AG, DP, and BW episodes in my opinion.

 

[CyberCubed]

2. I think Cyndaquil was doomed from the start as the next Fire type, but I thought Totodile was a good character. It had one of the biggest personalities of any Ash Pokemon ever. It got some filler attention but nowhere near enough battling time. I think they should've evolved Bayleef into Meganium just based on how much it was used and how it seemed to be Ash's main Johto Pokemon.

The problem is they built up Cyndaquil's potential to evolve in Johto many times and it didn't happen. It should have at least become Quilava. Totodile's problem was it was JUST comic relief, especially when you realize it was only used in one Gym in the entire saga...Whitney's Gym...where all it did was get squashed by Miltank. Totodile never had a single win in a Gym.

Indeed, the main problem is back then Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charizard felt like Ash's top pokemon (and at the time they were), so it felt like Ash was ditching them to go with inferior pokemon for no reason. We all understand why it happened for the same reason Ash dumps his old team every saga, but back then it was the FIRST time it happened.

4. While Master Quest did make up for a lot of the lost ground, it was too little too late. Definitely could've gotten a better sendoff. And looking back it's truly despicable that Misty found out she was leaving and left all within ONE episode. I forget what my reaction was when I was little, but that's just downright insulting to the viewers to have a character leave so abruptly. Not using the Internet so much at the time, most had no idea it was coming.

Heh I know you're too young to remember this, but back then the dub used to be a full year behind the Japanese version. People who were on the internet at the time already knew Misty was leaving a year before she left in the U.S. Remember AG started in Japan in November 2002, but the first Hoenn ep didn't air in the U.S. till 2003. All of us "older fans" already knew Misty was going to leave a year in advance. I guess though for you younger kids who didn't go on the internet at the time it was different. That's probably why Misty leaving wasn't a surprise for those of us who were already in our teens during late Johto or the beginning of Hoenn like I was.

Anyway I always did think the Whirl Cup in Johto was sort of a preview of what Contests would become in AG and DP. Misty got to battle in a tournament based on her goal, but the problem was there was no quest prior to it (like winning badges or ribbons), so it was just a 2-3 episode thing and that's all it was. I guess after the writers realized it would be better for the female lead to have her own quests, that's the reason they made the Contests into such a big deal in the anime instead of just giving them one filler and forgetting about them. Remember in the games Contests have no battling, so they basically turned them into tournaments for the anime.

Gary should have appeared a lot more especially when you realize he only gets 3 episodes prior to the league tournament. I never understood why Gary always had such few appearances in the anime, even back in Kanto we barely saw him and he's absent for all of Orange until the end.

 

[LizardonX]

But Ash NEEDED to release Charizard. It was too powerful. Ash would've just relied on it and used it in every gym battle. That wouldn't have been any fun at all.

The Johto Pokemon got the short end of the stick as it is -- can't imagine how much more they would've been shunned with Charizard reigning over them.

It would have allowed the gym leaders to utlize stronger teams like falkner did. It would have been worth it to see chuck use machamp or morty gengar to try and match charizard.

 

[Hotshotowen94]

Bulbasaur could of left early to have room for Heracross

 

[phanpycross]

Nope, that's not true:

- In the Violet City Gym battle with Falkner, Ash used his Chikorita against Falkner's Hoothoot. I will give you we had his Charizard win the battle against Pidgeot to win this battle, so I'll give you this one halfway.

- In the Azalea City Gym battle with Bugsy, Ash used both his Chikorita and Cyndaquil against Bugsy's Metapod and his Scyther: Cyndaquil helped him win this battle.

- In the Goldenrod Gym battle with Whitney, Ash used his Cyndaquil and Totodile predominantly (w/Pikachu like in the Azalea City Gym), which helped him defeat Whitney's Miltank in "A Dairy Tale Ending!"





- In the Ecruteak City Gym battle, Ash used his Cyndaquil, several of his Johto Pokemon, and Noctowl in his battle with Morty: Noctowl helped him win this battle by defeating Morty's Gengar.

Really, I could go on all day showing how that claim is false. Johto had its faults, but this was most certainly not one of them.

bayleaf: 3 gymbattles 2 wins

cyndaquil: 5 gymbattles 4 wins

totodile 1 gymbattle 0 wins

noctowl 1 gymbattle 2 wins

phanpy 0

heracross 0

picachu 8 gymbattles 6 wins

snorlax 1 gymbattle 1 win

charizard 2 gymbattles 2 wins

kanto was far superior in useage.

 

[An00bis]

Was it? Remember that Ash didn't actually earn half of his Kanto Badges.

Charmander, Charizard, and Pikachu were the only Pokemon who had decisive Gym Victories in Kanto. The " Group Effort " at Viridian Gym was debatable since (1) Pikachu was the one who actually won the match (Pidgeotto did surprisingly well though) and (2) Ash's opponent was someone he beat on a daily basis. It might've been a different story if he fought Giovanni himself.

Johto seemed to be more focused on battling than Kanto. Kanto seemed to be more focused on storytelling and battling was more of an afterthought.

 

[yuoke]

Was it? Remember that Ash didn't actually earn half of his Kanto Badges.

Charmander, Charizard, and Pikachu were the only Pokemon who had decisive Gym Victories in Kanto. The " Group Effort " at Viridian Gym was debatable since (1) Pikachu was the one who actually won the match (Pidgeotto did surprisingly well though) and (2) Ash's opponent was someone he beat on a daily basis. It might've been a different story if he fought Giovanni himself.

Johto seemed to be more focused on battling than Kanto. Kanto seemed to be more focused on storytelling and battling was more of an afterthought.

Ash would have been absolutely destroyed by giovanni, which is why the writers had no other choice but to do what they did there.

 

[Blessed]

Lol @ how the GS ball bothers everyone while I remain nonchalant about that topic. Some Johto flaws are that it's too much fillers, which to be honest, most were good and only a handful were bad. What bothered me more was Misty because she should have been given a goal and her Pokemon should have been utilized more. Master Quest was going in the right direction, but it was starting to become too late already. She should have been given more captures and focus episodes at least to compensate her leaving after Master Quest. Then we have the Chronicle episodes in which she catches a Gyarados and gets an Azurill in BF trying to give her some things before she disappears into obscurity. However these things should have been implemented during her run and not after. It's a mess to be honest but it is what is now.

 

[RickHoenn]

IMO Johto was a great saga, I don't see any wrong with it, most of the fillers were memorable, It also brought us Ash taking (finally!) seriously his gym battles. I consider it an experiment by the writers. However if I pointed one flaw was that his Johto team wasn't developed enough and there was plenty of time to do so. My ideal Johto team for Ash would have been:

1. Pikachu
2. Meganium
3. Quilava (Seriously, Cyndaquil got tons of development and battles, it didn't need to evolve so late in Sinnoh)
4. Totodile
5. Noctowl
6. Phanpy/Heracross (Heracross used as a reserve)