PokemonBattleFanatic-
Hardcore Paul Fan
Trainer
-DP Ash (Sinnoh)
Character
-OS Ash (Kanto)
Best of Both Worlds
-AG Ash (Hoenn)
-DP Ash (Sinnoh)
Character
-OS Ash (Kanto)
Best of Both Worlds
-AG Ash (Hoenn)
-
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Which Ash do you think is the better character?
- Thread starter mehmeh1
- Start date
Blastmaster
Well-Known Member
Trainer growth and character growth are definitely two separate things. They can be intertwined, a character gaining a new skill usually symbolizes a change in their personality, but the keyword is usually. Like, none of Ash's Gym battles (besides maybe a couple in Kanto, ironically) are really "character growth" because the formula for every single one of them is just "get pushed into a corner -> (lose -> train ->) improvise -> win." If that was ever character growth, it's been the exact same type of character growth for 22 years.
If we're talking about actual character growth, there's always a personal element to it. The reason Paul is a better rival than Alain despite Alain being more powerful is because Ash and Paul's conflict is personal. Same can be said about Gary. The only personal thing Ash deals with in XY is Greninja, which was done well enough imo, but even then the whole concept of "mastering a secret power through a strong bond" is something Ash has already dealt with. And outside of Greninja, Ash just got waaay too much praise and respect from everyone in Kalos to actually make his struggles personal.
Sidenote: Some people are way too obsessed with how "mature" Ash needs to be. Occasional immaturity isn't just a kid thing, it's a HUMAN thing. Let the kid show flaws and insecurities, it actually strengthens his friendships in the long run.
If we're talking about actual character growth, there's always a personal element to it. The reason Paul is a better rival than Alain despite Alain being more powerful is because Ash and Paul's conflict is personal. Same can be said about Gary. The only personal thing Ash deals with in XY is Greninja, which was done well enough imo, but even then the whole concept of "mastering a secret power through a strong bond" is something Ash has already dealt with. And outside of Greninja, Ash just got waaay too much praise and respect from everyone in Kalos to actually make his struggles personal.
Sidenote: Some people are way too obsessed with how "mature" Ash needs to be. Occasional immaturity isn't just a kid thing, it's a HUMAN thing. Let the kid show flaws and insecurities, it actually strengthens his friendships in the long run.
Power Up
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I don't know why you don't just quote me, but whatev
You literally undermine your main point here? You say they're and I quote " definitely two seperate things " and then you go on to say that it can happen? One of the finest examples of doublethink I've ever seen. I clearly said that trainer growth and character growth aren't mutually exclusive things and then you attempt to refute it by agreeing with me?
" can be intertwined " lmao...
I can point to several examples in XY itself, with the entirety of Ash's XYZ " depression " arc with Greninja and how deeply personal that was as the backbone of how strong of character XY Ash was as well as other examples such as the battle with Korrina and Ash's attempt to stray from his own strategy and how did things as another example, etc...
What? So because Ash got praise, this somehow makes his personal experience and struggles throughout Kalos weaker? Ash getting respect does in no way undermine whatever growth he underwent.
I really don't see this " absurd amount of praise " people say XY Ash gets, as I said, I'm currently rewatching XY and just because Ash is viewed as an inspirational figure by the main cast, the boogeyman of Ash being this overpraised shounen hero was created, when in the show, this perception is simply a caricature of reality
Blastmaster
Well-Known Member
I did agree with you that they're not mutually exclusive things. I was just saying that one doesn't automatically equal the other either. Ash's Gym battles are pretty much always Trainer growth, very rarely character growth.
Greninja's still the only part of XY I find legitimately personal. The dancing stuff against Korrina is dropped super quickly and doesn't affect the rest of the series at all. Ash's pride isn't on the line and he doesn't really have anything to prove beyond the usual of winning a badge.
It's more that Ash gets almost nothing but praise than him getting showered with it at every corner. It limits the amount of growing he can actually do when absolutely everyone's so content with him. Again, the Greninja arc is the only time where Ash seriously struggles with something beyond just beating another tough opponent.
PokemonBattleFanatic-
Hardcore Paul Fan
J.Agera
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PokemonBattleFanatic-
Hardcore Paul Fan
Go ahead and see who voted for what in the polls and you'll know why I posted this.
Have you heard of the "Flat Character Arc"? Because that's what Ash goes through in XY.
He is unquestionably the ace. He's the one who's been on the journey, the adventure. He knows it all because he's seen it all. He knows who he is and is the one who inspires others, pulls them up because by virtue he's reached the peak.
Then he starts to doubt things later on. What does he really know? Where has his path taken him? The Greninja arc begins to address that by having him feel he's not a good enough trainer for his Pokemon. That all this time he's been seen as the best of the best and here he comes to question that truth he'd already accepted.
And at the end of it, he builds himself back up. He reaffirms what he knew before his doubts rocked him and returns as an already stronger version of the character he began as.
It doesn't invalidate the growth because people look to him for inspiration, because it's a vastly different kind of character arc than Ash is used to, as he's usually portrayed as the underdog. In fact, the praise could be argued as part of why he goes through his arc. By doing nothing but succeed, Alain's entrance shatters the perception for Ash, and that's what matters most.
Leonhart
Imagineer
PokemonBattleFanatic- said:
Now that's interesting. It seemed like a lot of people agreed that XY was the most overrated series/saga of the anime, yet Kalos era Satoshi is winning the "better character" poll here. But it's possible that opinions have changed since that other thread was made, or maybe people disliked XY in general, but appreciated Satoshi during said saga.
Power Up
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@Epicocity succinctly explained part of the genius of XY Ash and why he's such a great character, don't need to add anything for now
You said here: " Trainer growth and character growth are definitely two separate things " but then you go on to say that they " can be intertwined, " which are contradictory since if they can be tied together would mean that they are connected in some fashion and not the kind of hard and fast statement you made in your former assertion. And then you go on to state the fundamentally flawed premise by assuming that I implied that that trainer and character growth somehow were equivalent, which nowhere did I state or imply that to be the case
Sending mixed messages here.
You said here: " Trainer growth and character growth are definitely two separate things " but then you go on to say that they " can be intertwined, " which are contradictory since if they can be tied together would mean that they are connected in some fashion and not the kind of hard and fast statement you made in your former assertion. And then you go on to state the fundamentally flawed premise by assuming that I implied that that trainer and character growth somehow were equivalent, which nowhere did I state or imply that to be the case
Sending mixed messages here.
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Blastmaster
Well-Known Member
Thinking about it, I think one of my bigger issues is the whole idea of treating Ash like this unquestionable ace at all. It was brought up on the previous page that Ash is still dumb or naive in most of the same areas as other regions: he still falls for TR's most obvious tricks, he's still incredibly dense (and not just romantically), he still recklessly endangers himself when trying to help Pokemon. But the series still likes to portray him as this all-around awesome Trainer who everyone looks up to. Like, he'll jump into a volcano to "save" his Talonflame and the tone of the scene still barely even allows him to feel a bit dumb about it save for some extremely tame scolding from Serena. Even though his action was completely moronic, the scripting of the scene (and multiple others like it) calls far more attention to "heroism" than "stupidity."
It's frustrating in hindsight because even though Ash is still highly flawed in XY, the tone rarely ever lets him feel flawed. You don't get the impression by the end of any other series that Ash is meant to be revered by all the major characters. Respected, sure, but not seen as some kind of ultimate peak of inspiration. It makes his growth and relationships feel more stale mainly because it's all played so straight. For 95% of the series, including the very end, there's no indication that anyone's overidealizing Ash or holding him to too high of a standard. He's just "that great" that instead of overcoming conflict with himself or others, he just doesn't have any.
Even when the "ace" status comes into question in XYZ, it still comes back to the ending being played straight as "Ash has regained his complete awesomeness, it's okay to idolize him again." You could even argue the concept of Ash doubting his own growth/reaffirming himself has been done already (Lake Acuity comes to mind), but without all the implications that Ash has totally peaked. They want it to seem like Ash has everything figured out, but kind of just tiptoe around all the areas where he could legitimately push himself.
game3524
Well-Known Member
Yup.
The only time the badge quest was tied to personal character growth was in Kanto. It was done very well to with the "pity badges" and Ash got great payoff as a character at the league. Honestly, the separation between the two is one of my biggest pet peeves with the post-Kanto seasons. It is one reason why I think lot of these series becomes forgettable IMO. They are repeating the same plot points/story beats in the long run, even if they change up the story and characters a bit
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