Which Battle Had The Highest Stakes For Ash?

[345ash-greninja]

Interestingly, now the response to you should be:

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Interestingly, now the response to you should be:

What truth?

 

[Genaller]

It's called "expressing one's opinion," something to which everyone has a right.

Did you know that... wait for it... everyone also has a right to criticize an opinion as long as they’re being civil about it like how you’re criticizing my opinion in your response? I know it’s quite shocking.

U.N. Owen actually has a point. I've said this before in other threads, but what bothered me most about Ash's loss at the Kalos League—even more than the loss itself—was his reaction. His reaction was unrealistic for someone who had come so close to becoming League Champion. You can say he was being a good sport, but even a good sport would still be disappointed at having victory snatched out from under his nose, especially since becoming a League Champion was a goal he had been chasing for so long.

It may be idealized, but Ash has developed into a person who isn’t bothered by loosing as long as he knows he did the best he could. The reason that he gets upset after loosing to Paul is not because of the loss itself, but because of the resulting implication that his training methods may actually be inferior and that he may have failed both his current and past Pokémon from reaching their full potential. Similarly he got upset after loosing to Wulfric not because of the actual loss, but because he knows that (due to his mental state) he couldn’t bring out the best in his Pokémon and they were capable of doing far better.

There’s a saying known as “do your duty; come what may”. What it means is that regardless of the result in any particular endeavor, as long as you know in your heart that you put in your best efforts, you can accept said result without feeling upset about it. Ash knows that he gave the best fight he could (I’ve even argued that it’s his best perfromance in the series in terms of pure trainer skill output) and ultimately it was just that Alain’s MC-X was flat-out stronger which, presuming he believes he trained his Pokémon to the best of his ability, is a factor entirely out of his control. Idealistically speaking if everyone could practice that saying, then net human well being would unequivocally be far higher than it currently is though in practice it’s very difficult to successfully adhere to this saying. The anime does indeed understand this which is why Sawyer despite also trying to take his loss gracefully eventually does in-fact have a breakdown.

There is a lot of evidence in this show to suggest that Ash does care immensely about winning the finals of a league (I went over it in the OP), and him not being upset after loosing is about him personifiying the “do your duty; come what may” ideal rather than meaning that he never really cared about winning the match in the first place which is a notion based on the real world observational generalization that people tend to get visibly upset when they don’t succeed in something they care a lot about eventhough that generalization itself is not an absolute.

Also my initial meaning behind making the thread would be the question in the title; however, I don’t consider the answer to that and the question in the poll to be different.

 

[345ash-greninja]

What truth?

That A-G's performance vs Diantha was indeed at a different league compared to Torterra vs Cynthia.

@ash&charizardfan said exactly that, and you posted that yawning GIF in response to that. So that's why I brought up that, meant nothing much else.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

That A-G's performance vs Diantha was indeed at a different league compared to Torterra vs Cynthia.

@ash&charizardfan said exactly that, and you posted that yawning GIF in response to that. So that's why I brought up that, meant nothing much else.

I don't care about what AG did against Diantha,it was the part where he mentioned Torterra being one shotted by Cynthia that was pointless.

 

[Satomine Night]

Did you know that... wait for it... everyone also has a right to criticize an opinion as long as they’re being civil about it like how you’re criticizing my opinion in your response? I know it’s quite shocking.

You accused U.N. Owen of making false assumptions, even though he based his opinion on his perception of Ash's reaction. It sounded more like you were trying to tell him he was wrong, rather than simply disagreeing with and criticizing his opinion and expressing your own.

It may be idealized, but Ash has developed into a person who isn’t bothered by loosing as long as he knows he did the best he could. The reason that he gets upset after loosing to Paul is not because of the loss itself, but because of the resulting implication that his training methods may actually be inferior and that he may have failed both his current and past Pokémon from reaching their full potential. Similarly he got upset after loosing to Wulfric not because of the actual loss, but because he knows that (due to his mental state) he couldn’t bring out the best in his Pokémon and they were capable of doing far better.

There’s a saying known as “do your duty; come what may”. What it means is that regardless of the result in any particular endeavor, as long as you know in your heart that you put in your best efforts, you can accept said result without feeling upset about it. Ash knows that he gave the best fight he could (I’ve even argued that it’s his best perfromance in the series in terms of pure trainer skill output) and ultimately it was just that Alain’s MC-X was flat-out stronger which, presuming he believes he trained his Pokémon to the best of his ability, is a factor entirely out of his control. Idealistically speaking if everyone could practice that saying, then net human well being would unequivocally be far higher than it currently is though in practice it’s very difficult to successfully adhere to this saying. The anime does indeed understand this which is why Sawyer despite also trying to take his loss gracefully eventually does in-fact have a breakdown.

There is a lot of evidence in this show to suggest that Ash does care immensely about winning the finals of a league (I went over it in the OP), and him not being upset after loosing is about him personifiying the “do your duty; come what may” ideal rather than meaning that he never really cared about winning the match in the first place which is a notion based on the real world observational generalization that people tend to get visibly upset when they don’t succeed in something they care a lot about eventhough that generalization itself is not an absolute.

I'm well aware that Ash has become the kind of person who is satisfied with his performance as long as he knows he and his Pokémon have done their best, and I applaud that growth in his character. However, even someone who knows and is satisfied that they have done their best would still, realistically, express some disappointment that their chance at winning a championship was snatched out from under their nose, even if that disappointment is brief. All that was needed was a brief camera shot of gritted teeth or a frown—something to indicate to the audience that Ash felt that marginal loss, even if immediately afterward he showed satisfaction at how far he got and how well he did. The fact that he didn't display any kind of disappointment, even after his declarations before his first match that he would win the Kalos League, felt unrealistic.

Also my initial meaning behind making the thread would be the question in the title; however, I don’t consider the answer to that and the question in the poll to be different.

Even so, there are two arguably kinds of "high stakes"—emotional high stakes and performance high stakes, which are not necessarily interchangeable. The Kalos League finals was a performance high stakes battle, whereas Ash's battles vs. Gary in the Johto League and vs. Paul in the Sinnoh League were emotional high stakes battles. So what I said about there being more than one answer to this question still stands.

 

[Genaller]

You accused U.N. Owen of making false assumptions, even though he based his opinion on his perception of Ash's reaction. It sounded more like you were trying to tell him he was wrong, rather than simply disagreeing with and criticizing his opinion and expressing your own.

First off it’s “assumption”... singular. Yeah I was criticizing his view and I do consider his implicit assumption to be false or more specifically to be applying the fallacy of composition with respect to the group of the “human species”. The inductive conclusion based on observations would go “people have a tendency to get upset when they don’t succeed in something they care a lot about”. UNO is implicitly applying an absolute version of the contrapositive which is “Ash did not get upset, therefore Ash didn’t care all that much about the match to begin with” which is objectively false. Perhaps (if I were to give him the benefit of doubt) UNO actually implicitly meant “Ash did not get upset, therefore Ash probably didn’t care all that much about the match to begin with” then it would be fine except it ‘s still probably a false claim when assessing the context surrounding the individual “Ash” in particular his character growth regarding how he’s managed to gradually handle loosing as long as he did his best better as well as the evidence in support of the claim that he in-fact probably would care a lot about a league final (note that in this case the claim would be false since it wouldn’t have a higher probability of being true than its negation). I’ve never accepted this notion that all opinions are equally valid. Some opinions can be justified better than others and hence have higher probabilities of being true. Of course everyone has the right to their own opinion, but that on its own doesn’t increase the probability of said opinion actually being correct.

I'm well aware that Ash has become the kind of person who is satisfied with his performance as long as he knows he and his Pokémon have done their best, and I applaud that growth in his character. However, even someone who knows and is satisfied that they have done their best would still, realistically, express some disappointment that their chance at winning a championship was snatched out from under their nose, even if that disappointment is brief. All that was needed was a brief camera shot of gritted teeth or a frown—something to indicate to the audience that Ash felt that marginal loss, even if immediately afterward he showed satisfaction at how far he got and how well he did. The fact that he didn't display any kind of disappointment, even after his declarations before his first match that he would win the Kalos League, felt unrealistic.

You’re confused here. Yes the claim that “Ash’s reaction was unrealistic with respect to human norms” is true in that 1 wouldn’t expect a given person to not at least show some signs of being upset after not succeeding in something very important to them; however, the claim “therefore Ash probably didn’t care a lot about that match to begin with” is where you’re making a logical misstep. “Expect” is a key word here; it’s not an absolute that every single person would definitely show signs of being upset in such a circumstance hence there is a realm of non-trivial possibility for someone to act the way Ash did by successfully adhering to the “do your duty; come what may” ideal (which admittedly is very difficult but again not impossible). While not a final, Ash did have an identical reaction in the Hoenn League after loosing to Tyson which I’m guessing was meant to be a step up from Johto where he, like you wanted for his KL loss, did show a momentary sign of lamenting his loss before taking it in stride. In Sinnoh there’s also a brief sign of Ash being upset after loosing 5 Pokémon against Tobias though rather than the impending loss he was upset that time because it became clear to him that he never stood a chance of winning to begin with (on a side note it was still very admirable of him to then go out in a blaze of glory than just accept defeat). I accept that Ash’s behavior represents an ideal that no 1 should realistically be expected to live up to, but let’s be clear as to what it is which is that Ash at that point in his character did personify that ideal rather than trying to artificially invoke “realism” by claiming that Ash most likely didn’t care about the match in the first place as a consequence of his reaction.

Even so, there are two arguably kinds of "high stakes"—emotional high stakes and performance high stakes, which are not necessarily interchangeable. The Kalos League finals was a performance high stakes battle, whereas Ash's battles vs. Gary in the Johto League and vs. Paul in the Sinnoh League were emotional high stakes battles. So what I said about there being more than one answer to this question still stands.

I know that the “type” of stakes were different in those matches specifically in Gary and Paul the primary stakes were related to the opponent Ash was facing whereas in Alain the primary stakes were related to the stage itself (a league final) rather than the opponent. I understand that deciding which type of stakes Ash would care more about is subjective; however, given the evidence in the series it would be an improbable claim to assert that Ash didn’t consider all of those battles very important in their own right. Just to be clear I’m perfectly fine with the view that Ash cared more about the Gary and Paul battles than the Alain battle, but I do take issue with the claim that he most likely didn’t care much about the Alain battle in the first place.

 

[Satomine Night]

You’re confused here. Yes the claim that “Ash’s reaction was unrealistic with respect to human norms” is true in that 1 wouldn’t expect a given person to not at least show some signs of being upset after not succeeding in something very important to them; however, the claim “therefore Ash probably didn’t care a lot about that match to begin with” is where you’re making a logical misstep. “Expect” is a key word here; it’s not an absolute that every single person would definitely show signs of being upset in such a circumstance hence there is a realm of non-trivial possibility for someone to act the way Ash did by successfully adhering to the “do your duty; come what may” ideal (which admittedly is very difficult but again not impossible). While not a final, Ash did have an identical reaction in the Hoenn League after loosing to Tyson which I’m guessing was meant to be a step up from Johto where he, like you wanted for his KL loss, did show a momentary sign of lamenting his loss before taking it in stride. In Sinnoh there’s also a brief sign of Ash being upset after loosing 5 Pokémon against Tobias though rather than the impending loss he was upset that time because it became clear to him that he never stood a chance of winning to begin with (on a side note it was still very admirable of him to then go out in a blaze of glory than just accept defeat). I accept that Ash’s behavior represents an ideal that no 1 should realistically be expected to live up to, but let’s be clear as to what it is which is that Ash at that point in his character did personify that ideal rather than trying to artificially invoke “realism” by claiming that Ash most likely didn’t care about the match in the first place as a consequence of his reaction.

I'm not confused. I never claimed that Ash did not care much about his Kalos League loss. I claimed that his reaction was unrealistic given the circumstances. I can't make a "logical misstep" on logic I'm not even touching.

I know that the “type” of stakes were different in those matches specifically in Gary and Paul the primary stakes were related to the opponent Ash was facing whereas in Alain the primary stakes were related to the stage itself (a league final) rather than the opponent. I understand that deciding which type of stakes Ash would care more about is subjective; however, given the evidence in the series it would be an improbable claim to assert that Ash didn’t consider all of those battles very important in their own right. Just to be clear I’m perfectly fine with the view that Ash cared more about the Gary and Paul battles than the Alain battle, but I do take issue with the claim that he most likely didn’t care much about the Alain battle in the first place.

Of course Ash considered all of those battles important in their own right. However, as I stated in my initial post, which battle Ash considered had the highest performance stakes might be different than the one he considered had the highest emotional stakes. I was addressing the possibility that there might be two answers to this question; that's all.

 

[XY Rules]

VS Paul was clearly the one which Ash himself considered to have the highest stakes. It’s made even clearer by the Lake Acuity battle which was in the same vein. Ash lost and it hit him so hard he got depressed because of it.

Compare that to his reaction to losing against Alain and where he didn’t really give a crap...

He even reacted harder with other leagues where he wasn’t even in the finals...

Not to mention the fact that the league is just a competition and Ash knows that there will be plenty of other leagues. (Side note: He can’t get into the Champion League unless he wins in his home region, nowhere else).

Whereas against Paul, he wasn’t just fighting to win the league, he was fighting in order to prove himself and his Pokemon. It wasn’t just a competition for him, it was an ideological battle against someone he might never see again. Losing there would’ve wrecked him because he wouldn’t get another chance like he would for a league.

Don’t know why you even made this thread though if all you wanted to do was argue your opinion when you yourself said it wasn’t about our opinions but what Ash himself considered the one with the highest stakes...

 

[Genaller]

I'm not confused. I never claimed that Ash did not care much about his Kalos League loss. I claimed that his reaction was unrealistic given the circumstances. I can't make a "logical misstep" on logic I'm not even touching.

Ah I thought you shared UNO’s precise view. In that case the logical misstep doesn’t apply to you. Sure I agree it was unrealistic (though that doesn’t make it an incorrect reaction).

Of course Ash considered all of those battles important in their own right. However, as I stated in my initial post, which battle Ash considered had the highest performance stakes might be different than the one he considered had the highest emotional stakes. I was addressing the possibility that there might be two answers to this question; that's all.

That’s fine then. We have no issue .

 

[Genaller]

VS Paul was clearly the one which Ash himself considered to have the highest stakes. It’s made even clearer by the Lake Acuity battle which was in the same vein. Ash lost and it hit him so hard he got depressed because of it.

Compare that to his reaction to losing against Alain and where he didn’t really give a crap...

I already addressed both why Ash did react hard to loosing to Paul and didn’t to loosing to Alain. Please properly read my responses to SN.

He seems perfectly fine in Hoenn. Amusingly the reaction Ash is showing against Tobias isn’t due to loosing but due to realizing he had no chance to begin with after which he decides to go out in a blaze of glory and doesn’t show any negative reaction when he actually looses. Looks just dandy in Unova eventhough I don’t count Unova in Ash’s progression. I’ve already addressed why using Ash’s reaction to claim he never really cared in the first place is faulty reasoning.

He even reacted harder with other leagues where he wasn’t even in the finals...

Yup Ash showed a gradual progression in being able to handle losses better as long as he was able to give it his all and was at least competitive in the match. He was upset for a lengthy period of time after loosing at the Indigo League, upset momentarily after loosing at the Johto league before accepting the loss and has no troubles accepting the loss immediately in the case of the Hoenn League.

Not to mention the fact that the league is just a competition and Ash knows that there will be plenty of other leagues. (Side note: He can’t get into the Champion League unless he wins in his home region, nowhere else).

Lol that’s a dub only line. In the Aaron episode Officer Jenny states and I paraphrase “The E4 are the rulers of the champions’ league where Champion trainers from every region gather” indicating that winning any regional conference authorized by the Pokémon League grants you access to the Champions’ league of every region.

Whereas against Paul, he wasn’t just fighting to win the league, he was fighting in order to prove himself and his Pokemon. It wasn’t just a competition for him, it was an ideological battle against someone he might never see again. Losing there would’ve wrecked him because he wouldn’t get another chance like he would for a league.

Here’s the thing; I doubt loosing would’ve necessarily really affected Ash especially if it was an extreme diff 6-5 loss indicating that both trainers were practically even (the same indication as the extreme diff 6-5 win Ash got in the actual show) rather than the 6-2 trouncing he got in LA which implied that Paul’s methods were flat-out superior. A fact that many people forget is that Paul and Ash already respected each other to a degree even prior to their final battle. The word “just” is quite misleading since winning a league conference is something Ash has put a lot of time and effort into attaining since the start of his journey and would be Ash’s first major permanent step towards achieving his ultimate dream which is the title of Pokémon Master.

Don’t know why you even made this thread though if all you wanted to do was argue your opinion when you yourself said it wasn’t about our opinions but what Ash himself considered the one with the highest stakes...

To be specific (and again this has already been addressed) it’s about our opinions of Ash’s opinion. Also congratulations! You’ve shown me and everyone else here that you lack basic reading comprehension by bringing up points I’ve already addressed (either that or you have a confirmation bias).

 

[keepitsimple]

That screenshot of Ash in Unova isn't even from the league. That was from when Ash battled Iris in Nimbasa Town.

Ash still didn't give a **** about losing the Unova league though so I guess it doesn't matter either way

 

[Krackochu]

Paul overall just had the highest stakes the battle was about showing Paul something idk why people put Alain in terms of narrative Ash didn't need to prove anything to alain

 

[Krackochu]

Omg I'm a well know member now that's cool but anyways furthermore Ash's battle with Paul was to prove to himself that he was a capable trainer it was a huge internal struggle none of the battles in my opinion besides the Paul one had a huge narrative purpose wait no scratch that only the Drake one had another narrative purpose which is to show how strong Ash had gotten

 

[mehmeh1]

Ash's reaction to the Alola league kinda redeems his reaction to his loss in Kalos IMO. His complete disbelief at winning just shows that after all this time, he had become used to losing and treated it as a natural part of a league, so it's not that he didn't care about the fight, he just didn't think losing was anything out of the ordinary, so there was nothing for him to be disappointed about,especially since he gave it his all and had a lot of fun.

 

[Leonhart]

I suppose that Satoshi's Alola League battle against Gladio had the highest stakes considering that it was the final match of the tournament and whether Satoshi became a Champion depended on the outcome. Same goes for his Kalos League battle against Alain, although I rank it lower since Satoshi lost and didn't accomplish much.

 

[Hydrangea]

This thread was hella necroed so we’re just gonna close that up.