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Which companion did you feel like the writers didn’t have a clear plan for?

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Legends Arceus shall be a masterpiece
.......people in this thread really like to attribute a stretch of episodes between development to mean that the writers had no plans for their characters. Especially with Chloe, she literally is the first companion after Dawn that I feel like they have a VERY concrete plan with and are slowly executing it, it's just slowburn which is made more digestable by the fact she isn't a MC and also since her development is tied to Eevee and exploring it's evolutions as a metaphor for finding her path in life, people don't like it coz Eevee always receives spotlight. Again, just because you don't like a character's execution DOESNT mean there wasn't a plan. Chloe definitely has a plan with her arc slowly being set up in the episodes, claiming otherwise is just plain false.

As for the other companions
The writers definitely had zero plans for Max. Bonnie was a Max well done with more proper bonding episode and then a proper Zygarde arc for her too which I heavily doubt was planned at the start, but worked well with how her character was setup.
Tracey frankly didn't need a plan, he was quite straightforward in what he wanted
Misty and Brock never had plans either related to their developments, receiving half hearted episodes towards that before chronicles improved heavily for Misty. Their character writing was very strong though
May and Dawn definitely were planned better
Iris plans execution was wonky to say the least and in BW she never had a proper endgame for that plan imo
Cilan had no plans at all development wise, but damn was he written well as a character
Serena's plans execution was even more wonky imo but that's all I'm saying lest this thread closes down
Clemont was fine for what he was, his development ended at lumiose and that's fine, his character was still okay and they gave him a Clembot sacrifice for TF which was good.
Same with Lillie, her major development happened really well with end of S1 and while she was less in limelight after that she still slowly had the family and mohn plan being built up for her.
Goal wise the writers never had many concrete plans for the SM characters coz their writing was character based, and on that front they definitely had plans and it showed.
Goh's plan execution is wonky but is still being done better imo with Project Mews introduction


People also really need to stop associating whether writers had a plan with just goal development and take character development into perspective as well. The only ones who felt really irrelevant to me that the writers never even wanted to focus on were Max and Tracey. Rest all received their own share even if the execution was rarely perfect
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna be that guy.

Max, Mallow and Lillie post year 1. Koharu is a maybe. I like where she's going, but the payoff matters as much as everything else and I don't know if they've provided enough evidence to definitively say they know what they're doing or are just going along until they settle.

Max is kinda obvious because he didn't do much and was just around, but AG was an extremely experimental phase in general.

While a lot of the SM cast can kinda fall into it, especially from the actually present tonal shift from Year 1's first half to its second half, Lana was kept consistent and Sophocles ended up finding a nice goal and character arc. Mallow, however, was always there, with her biggest episode being a one-off. Lillie, likewise, had a clear idea both while Omode was in charge of her and up until they dealt with the Aether Arc. Then she dithered and it wasn't until year 3 where they started getting some idea, but so late they didn't even bother to conclude the arc.

I'm also gonna be that guy who says just because Serena didn't have a goal for a year doesn't mean they didn't know what they were doing because that was literally her arc. You know, the fact she was an indecisive and uncommitted mess who left home simply because she didn't want to do what she was doing instead of having an idea of what she wanted to do. It's actually pretty textual, the number of times it's brought up that she she doesn't have a goal and her quitter tendencies.

Dislike Showcases or the fact her goal arc didn't start until a year in, far as her character arc went, it started as early as episode 1.
 
@AuraChannelerChris uh, it's okay you don't like showcases, but calling it stupid is disrespectful
They were stupid because Serena NEVER legitimately lost because she was worse than others but because her fashion sense was impractical that caused tripping, which was a death sentence. And the tripping happened twice with two newbies who barely knew what showcases were about. Not to mention the showcases were brought too late and left Serena with no room to properly develop her skills, which were all for naught because Aria had a monopoly on fanbases so they all keeled over any time she winked their way, really.

Showcases were pretty, but they were executed poorly in story terms.
 
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Dragonsoldier77

Well-Known Member
I feel like koharu and goh are the ones they’re struggling with, though rather than not having a plan it feels more like the plan wasn’t going well and they decided a swerve.

Project mew feels like an attempt to try and fix all the complaints about goh’s goal rather than something they were working to. They made his goal to catch all pokemon and then mew to be ‘catcher’ character, but now pivoting it to getting to mew through project mew even without the catching all pokemon thing because his goal progression wasn’t very clear. But that removes the ‘motivation’ of catching all the pokemon for hia goal, though i guess they also added an ‘catch to understand them’ bit during the mewtwo ep. They also suddenly made him look more incompetent, even though he was portrayed to be capable enough around ash until this point, to probably give him the usual uderdog status.

Koharu feels like she’s lost everything just to be the designated evee carrier. The not interested in pokemon was apparently magically cured as soon as she saw evee. Her earlier episodes focused on her bond with yamper, but that dog has been kicked to the curb. After all that she still said she wasn’t interested in having her own pokemon, which changes instantly with an evee she barely bonded with and now babies extensively. The whole career thing hasn’t really been touched on either. She goes on trips would be a perfect opportunity for her to consider her career path, but she never shows any bit of interest in these episodes unless it’s about evee. Yes yes ‘Evee’s evolution is symbolic to koharu’s lack of goal’, but at this point it feels more like they just decided to revolve all the things they wanted to with her to evee. I really hope the dawn episodes does something good for koharu, it seems like the first time she actively does something of on her own accord.

Ironically the most interest she’s shown towards an occupation is when she was okay with just watching kikuna do the job she resented everyone and pokemon for when people assumed that was what she wanted to be.
 
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RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
I'm also gonna be that guy who says just because Serena didn't have a goal for a year doesn't mean they didn't know what they were doing because that was literally her arc.
The fact that a secondary character like Korrina got a proper arc before than Serena showed for people that mentioned Serena in this thread that the writers didn't have a clear plan for her. The fact that Aria wasn't presented as the Kalos Queen into her first appearence in the Pokevision episode only makes things worse.
S17 Serena is not that different from Koharu.
 
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Sham

These leaks have me distressed
The fact that a secondary character like Korrina got a proper arc before than Serena showed for people that mentioned Serena in this thread that the writers doesn't have a clear plan for her. The fact that Aria wasn't presented as the Kalos Queen into her first appearence in the Pokevision episode only makes things worse.
S17 Serena is not that different from Koharu.
It’s always surprising when people attack Chloe’s development but yet praise Serena for the exact same thing. The only reason why I’m able to give Chloe some bail is because at least narrative wise we are reminded more about her indecisiveness, her personality makes her her indecisiveness and confusion about her life goals more interesting and overall she isn’t a main character so I’m holding her to a lower expectation.
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna go for Max, i really can't remember what did the little boi wanted, something along the lines of being a Pokemon professor or something? idk, my memory is foggy but i don't remember him doing anything relevant in the series other than M6
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
The fact that a secondary character like Korrina got a proper arc before than Serena showed for people that mentioned Serena in this thread that the writers didn't have a clear plan for her. The fact that Aria wasn't presented as the Kalos Queen into her first appearence in the Pokevision episode only makes things worse.
S17 Serena is not that different from Koharu.
That's because you repeatedly confuse "character arc" with "goal arc". A character does not necessarily need to have a goal to have an arc. Serena's arc began in Episode 1 when we saw she hated Rhyhorn Racing and wanted to get away from it, and wanted to give up after spending only a few minutes. Character establishment showcasing indecisiveness and quitting tendencies. This does not need her finding a goal to begin. Her finding a goal is part of the arc. Her sticking to the goal is part of the arc. The character arc begins in XY 1 and finishes in XYZ 47. It doesn't need constant concentration or focus to show it, either; there are a lot of little moments like Serena's asides musing about a goal, or being the first to quit at flower arranging, that show this side of her.

As for Koharu, people don't quite give her praise because we both don't know her endgame (keep in mind, a lot of Serena's early moments are noticed to be much better in hindsight of the entire XY series because we can see where they intended to take her character) and because she's not really around that much. Koharu is a slow burn character. Time will tell if she remains well-written if they stick the landing. Right now it's unfortunately still too early to tell, even 70 episodes in.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
That's because you repeatedly confuse "character arc" with "goal arc". A character does not necessarily need to have a goal to have an arc. Serena's arc began in Episode 1 when we saw she hated Rhyhorn Racing and wanted to get away from it, and wanted to give up after spending only a few minutes. Character establishment showcasing indecisiveness and quitting tendencies. This does not need her finding a goal to begin. Her finding a goal is part of the arc. Her sticking to the goal is part of the arc. The character arc begins in XY 1 and finishes in XYZ 47. It doesn't need constant concentration or focus to show it, either; there are a lot of little moments like Serena's asides musing about a goal, or being the first to quit at flower arranging, that show this side of her.

As for Koharu, people don't quite give her praise because we both don't know her endgame (keep in mind, a lot of Serena's early moments are noticed to be much better in hindsight of the entire XY series because we can see where they intended to take her character) and because she's not really around that much. Koharu is a slow burn character. Time will tell if she remains well-written if they stick the landing. Right now it's unfortunately still too early to tell, even 70 episodes in.
For having a character arc, you need to actual work with the elements around the character in question, but Serena barely had episodes adressing her problems. The fact that even Chloe had more dedicated episodes to her characters during the first 40 episodes (Around where the Summer Camp started in XY) explains why people also consider that the writers didn't have a clear plan for Serena, both having an apparent problem but barely touching it most of the time.

When people think that the writers have a clear plan for a character, it is reflected into how many episodes dedicated they have, an example about this is how May has around 10 and Dawn about 15 in the first 40 episode, but Serena only has 3 and Chloe has 4. Even Iris have more because even when her goal was more ambiguous, the writers at least had an idea about what to do with her, even if her development at the end wasn't that great.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
For having a character arc, you need to actual work with the elements around the character in question, but Serena barely had episodes adressing her problems. The fact that even Chloe had more dedicated episodes to her characters during the first 40 episodes (Around where the Summer Camp started in XY) explains why people also consider that the writers didn't have a clear plan for Serena, both having an apparent problem but barely touching it most of the time.

When people think that the writers have a clear plan for a character, it is reflected into how many episodes dedicated they have, an example about this is how May has around 10 and Dawn about 15 in the first 40 episode, but Serena only has 3 and Chloe has 4. Even Iris have more because even when her goal was more ambiguous, the writers at least had an idea about what to do with her, even if her development at the end wasn't that great.
A character doesn't need a ton of focus episodes in order to develop. The difference between Serena and Dawn and May is that she is a slow-burn character. Her development is slow to come, stews in the background for a while, and then usually has a positive result. Koharu is a similar character and you can see it in how even her seeming focus episodes...weren't really about her (also, they had roughly the same amount of focus eps, Serena 3 hyper focused eps, and Koharu 4 semi-focused eps where she was mostly the major B-plot).

You cannot judge an author's plan for a character based on how much focus their character has. That's asinine at best.
 

Applecorp

Well-Known Member
Goh and Chloe.
Goh? His Mew goal was revealed really early on and so was his other goal of catching every Pokemon so clearly the writing staff had a clear plan for him. Some fans not liking his purpose doesn't equal bad planning on the writing staff's part.

Misty was the epitome of purposelessness same with Max and Serena at first. I bet the writing staff only had Misty in the cast because they needed a girl to balance out the duo of Ash and Brock.
 

Evstike

Well-Known Member
Goh? His Mew goal was revealed really early on and so was his other goal of catching every Pokemon so clearly the writing staff had a clear plan for him. Some fans not liking his purpose doesn't equal bad planning on the writing staff's part.
The problem with Goh's goal is that there's no way to actually catch every Pokemon by the end of this series, and if he does, will Mew just magically appear and hand itself to him? He's just been aimlessly throwing balls at Pokemon with no sense of progression or escalating stakes. Suicune was handed to him for no reason or narrative purpose. Project Mew coming in so late makes me think they only came up with it recently after seeing how Goh's goal wasn't engaging at all. Even now when Project Mew isn't in focus, he's doing the same old aimless catching. It's just all over the place.
 

Applecorp

Well-Known Member
The problem with Goh's goal is that there's no way to actually catch every Pokemon by the end of this series, and if he does, will Mew just magically appear and hand itself to him? He's just been aimlessly throwing balls at Pokemon with no sense of progression or escalating stakes. Suicune was handed to him for no reason or narrative purpose. Project Mew coming in so late makes me think they only came up with it recently after seeing how Goh's goal wasn't engaging at all. Even now when Project Mew isn't in focus, he's doing the same old aimless catching. It's just all over the place.
Like I said fans not liking how his goal is set up isn't the same as the writers not having a plan for the goal. The fact remains that he was given a goal very early in the saga and is trying to achieve it.

He might fail at what he's doing for all I know but that's not what matters anyways because guess what so have most of the companions in this series including Ash. I think people need to lessen their emphasis on how a goal is structured especially in this saga where everything is paced differently than in past sagas.
 

Evstike

Well-Known Member
Like I said fans not liking how his goal is set up isn't the same as the writers not having a plan for the goal. The fact remains that he was given a goal very early in the saga and is trying to achieve it.
You're missing my point. His goal isn't feasible, and there's no sense of progression, so it seems to me like the writers are just winging it until they can figure something out later down the road. I used Project Mew as an example of something that came out of nowhere to add structure to his goal.
 
A character doesn't need a ton of focus episodes in order to develop. The difference between Serena and Dawn and May is that she is a slow-burn character. Her development is slow to come, stews in the background for a while, and then usually has a positive result. Koharu is a similar character and you can see it in how even her seeming focus episodes...weren't really about her (also, they had roughly the same amount of focus eps, Serena 3 hyper focused eps, and Koharu 4 semi-focused eps where she was mostly the major B-plot).

You cannot judge an author's plan for a character based on how much focus their character has. That's asinine at best.
Imagine boiling down characters to just numbers. It's the content of what is in the episodes that matters.
 
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