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Which companion did you feel like the writers didn’t have a clear plan for?

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
She has a whole episode dedicated to understanding that perhaps she thought wrong about Rhyhorn Racing.
Yes, XY007 is basically the only one of the Serena dedicated episodes where she actually address her personal problems. The other episodes being the Pokevision episode with Aria's debut and the Pokepuff episode with Miette's debut, but in any of those situations Showcases (Serena's actual goal) were mentioned. This was only added until the Summer Camp arc when Serena starts to ask to herself what she wants to do. But before of this? Almost Zero episodes addressing her actual problems, which is why I don't blame people for saying that they feel that the writers didn't have a clear plan for her in XY first year.

Also this argument about small "moments" showing apparently "progress" can be say for almost all the main characters in Pokémon from OS to JN and not exclusively for Serena, but without actual major plot addressing the character problems, it is not a proper arc.

Saying that Serena's character arc started in XY001 but not addressing her own problems during the first 40 episodes except for 1 dedicated episodes is like saying that Sophocles arc started in SM005 but never addressing his own problems until mid SM.
She had a clear plan in mind for XY years 2-3, but first year was awful.
 

Ragnarok4

# 1 Kairyu Fan

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Yes, XY007 is basically the only one of the Serena dedicated episodes where she actually address her personal problems. The other episodes being the Pokevision episode with Aria's debut and the Pokepuff episode with Miette's debut, but in any of those situations Showcases (Serena's actual goal) were mentioned. This was only added until the Summer Camp arc when Serena starts to ask to herself what she wants to do. But before of this? Almost Zero episodes addressing her actual problems, which is why I don't blame people for saying that they feel that the writers didn't have a clear plan for her in XY first year.

Also this argument about small "moments" showing apparently "progress" can be say for almost all the main characters in Pokémon from OS to JN and not exclusively for Serena, but without actual major plot addressing the character problems, it is not a proper arc.

Saying that Serena's character arc started in XY001 but not addressing her own problems during the first 40 episodes except for 1 dedicated episodes is like saying that Sophocles arc started in SM005 but never addressing his own problems until mid SM.
She had a clear plan in mind for XY years 2-3, but first year was awful.
Um...it was addressed. XY 21, the Pokevision episode, quite literally had Serena confront something she hated and worked through it. This was literally the start of her entire arc in a nutshell.

And I never said it can't apply to other characters, but you literally can't make an arc about someone who's indecisive and have her develop at lightspeed to find a goal in a few episodes.

In either case, the implication you have that just because she was relatively undeveloped in the first year means there was no plan for the future is a very wrong one.
Wouldn't exactly call that practicing. The first one was the "almost Z-Move" that made Hala permit her to have the Z-Ring (which pretty much broke all the convention for obtaining Z-Rings they had established prior). The second is her literally achieving it. The practice is entirely offscreen....Or maybe not even any practice offscreen. Ash magically was able to do Z-Moves offscreen, so who knows.
 

Sham

These leaks have me distressed
Wouldn't exactly call that practicing. The first one was the "almost Z-Move" that made Hala permit her to have the Z-Ring (which pretty much broke all the convention for obtaining Z-Rings they had established prior). The second is her literally achieving it. The practice is entirely offscreen....Or maybe not even any practice offscreen. Ash magically was able to do Z-Moves offscreen, so who knows.
Practice: the customary, habitual, or expected procedure or way of doing of something.

unfortunately you don’t define words based on your liking of the execution and isn’t that the same thing you’re accusing others of? Upsetting.

Also why is her achieving the Z move not considered practice? Is it only practice if you fail? Madness.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Um...it was addressed. XY 21, the Pokevision episode, quite literally had Serena confront something she hated and worked through it. This was literally the start of her entire arc in a nutshell.
Sorry but if you are talking about Serena and/or Fennekin fear of being dirty, it is not a good example of actual development, because this example was not a part of any prior or later episode, and neither related to Serena's goal.

Beating a phobia is actual development when it is a Main part of the character's Main plot, like Lillie beating her phobia of touching Pokémon or Sophocles beating his phobia of Dark places (You know, space is Dark so this is relevant for his character)
 

Sham

These leaks have me distressed
Sorry but if you are talking about Serena and/or Fennekin fear of being dirty, it is not a good example of actual development, because this example was not a part of any prior or later episode, and neither related to Serena's goal.

Beating a phobia is actual development when it is a Main part of the character's Main plot, like Lillie beating her phobia of touching Pokémon or Sophocles beating his phobia of Dark places (You know, space is Dark so this is relevant for his character)
It’s so upsetting because she could literally crack and egg open and that’s somehow related to her character development. Anyway I’d stop wasting my time if I were you. He’s a hardcore fan and will thesis you to the ground with how her development is great (which he’s entitled to) but he ain’t changing his stance.
 
How could I forget the silliness that was Fennekin trying to get over getting dirty.

Which then they imported over to Sunny D-roc because apparently dogs care that much about their looks (more so when they literally use dirt to attack).
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Sorry but if you are talking about Serena and/or Fennekin fear of being dirty, it is not a good example of actual development, because this example was not a part of any prior or later episode, and neither related to Serena's goal.

Beating a phobia is actual development when it is a Main part of the character's Main plot, like Lillie beating her phobia of touching Pokémon or Sophocles beating his phobia of Dark places (You know, space is Dark so this is relevant for his character)
Let me get this straight...an episode about Serena overcoming an obstacle placed before her (i.e. getting dirty to save Fennekin), something that she habitually is noted to fail, doesn't count because it's not brought up later. That is literally part of her character arc. It wasn't a phobia. It was literally her arc: overcoming obstacles when placed before her that would usually cause her to quit.
It’s so upsetting because she could literally crack and egg open and that’s somehow related to her character development. Anyway I’d stop wasting my time if I were you. He’s a hardcore fan and will thesis you to the ground with how her development is great (which he’s entitled to) but he ain’t changing his stance.
And you constantly make threads that are pretty much thinly veiled excuses to bash Serena's character, so you're not quite one to talk.

And honestly, if you knew anything about me, you'd know that I've actually said I wished they moved her Showcase decision up 10 episodes, among other critiques I've had. I'm not blind. I'm just good at narrative analysis. Don't make things up. It's not like I sit here talking about Serena's actions in the haunted house episodes having anything to do with her arc, because they don't. I'm literally talking about things that specifically have to do with her narrative, mostly textual, and a little in the subtextual department where applicable, but you seem to love to ignore them in favor of "obsessed with Ash".

So, yeah, don't paint me with the broad brush. (and besides, there needs to be someone to counter the ridiculous amount of Serena hatred in these threads that always comes from the same suspects)
 

Sham

These leaks have me distressed
Excluding the companions the writers obviously had no directions with the BW rivals, a mess. The fact that Georgia and Iris battled twice and one was a tie and the other was a battle Iris had no involvement in sucked. Burgundy battled Cilan once and was just there and don't get me started on Ash's rivals. They were all fun but it was pretty clear outsides of the tournaments they didn't have much of an idea what to do with them and that's why some of them disappeared after the Junior Cup
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Let me get this straight...an episode about Serena overcoming an obstacle placed before her (i.e. getting dirty to save Fennekin), something that she habitually is noted to fail, doesn't count because it's not brought up later. That is literally part of her character arc. It wasn't a phobia. It was literally her arc: overcoming obstacles when placed before her that would usually cause her to quit.
Again, you can literally say the same thing for any other character, Serena is not special in that regard. Serena's character arc was about finding a goal because she didn't want to participate in Rhyhorn race, and about being more secure about herself, and this whole "having fear of being dirty" has nothing to do with that.

Most of the characters mentioned in this thread have those small "progression" but they are still being mentioned because the major plots related to her character and goal progressions were almost inexistent in the times they were mentioned, like Serena's first year or Lillie post Aether Foundation arc.

(and besides, there needs to be someone to counter the ridiculous amount of Serena hatred in these threads that always comes from the same suspects)
Did you realize that most people that commented in this thread mentioned Serena in her first year? I don't think it is a coincidence that she was that much mentioned, but coincidentally, she is the only one with this level of trying to defend clearly flaws into her development during the first quarterly of the series, why is is so hard to accept it?
It is not hatring into a specific character, a lot of people have also mentioned consistently other characters with clearly flaws like Lana or Mallow, but as people accepted that those characters have flaws there are not reasons to discussing them
 
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Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Again, you can literally say the same thing for any other character, Serena is not special in that regard. Serena's character arc was about finding a goal because she didn't want to participate in Rhyhorn race, and about being more secure about herself, and this whole "having fear of being dirty" has nothing to do with that.

Most of the characters mentioned in this thread have those small "progression" but they are still being mentioned because the major plots related to her character and goal progressions were almost inexistent in the times they were mentioned, like Serena's first year or Lillie post Aether Foundation arc.
It wasn't about being more secure in herself. It was about her literally choosing to not give up when the going got rough. Her choosing to dirty herself to save Fennekin, or not giving up when the going gets rough, literally correlates directly to her arc in this case.

I feel like you're both completely dismissing or purposely ignoring what her actual character arc is and thus using it to dismiss an episode that has a direct role in that.

So, somehow, it's okay for other characters to get episodes about their own character arcs, but it doesn't count when it's about Serena. Somehow it means they didn't have her character figured out.

Yeah, I have you figured out. Guess there's no point to even trying to argue against people who just want their Serena hate corner that ignores actual context and textual evidence.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
I have many strong emotions about Serena. I find her the most frustrating character in the entire show and would gladly rip apart her entire arc in a long form video essay filled with clickbait and flamebait before rebuilding it from scratch.

I would not describe her as a character the writers had no plan for. They had a plan for her. I just hated her arc, her goal, and the characters surrounding her. They had a plan for her. I just despised every phase of the plan the same way I despise the smell of durian fruit.

Now, if you had to ask me who they had the writers had no plan for, look no further to Lillie. Lillie would be a much better character if she was the main protagonist and Ash was just there to be muscle. Oh wait, we can have Gladion do it instead because why wouldn't you have relatives be a part of a family drama plot?
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
It wasn't about being more secure in herself. It was about her literally choosing to not give up when the going got rough. Her choosing to dirty herself to save Fennekin, or not giving up when the going gets rough, literally correlates directly to her arc in this case.

I feel like you're both completely dismissing or purposely ignoring what her actual character arc is and thus using it to dismiss an episode that has a direct role in that.

So, somehow, it's okay for other characters to get episodes about their own character arcs, but it doesn't count when it's about Serena. Somehow it means they didn't have her character figured out.

Yeah, I have you figured out. Guess there's no point to even trying to argue against people who just want their Serena hate corner that ignores actual context and textual evidence.
The difference between other characters not being mentioned in this thread and Serena is that the episodes dedicated to those characters like May or Dawn is that not only they have more dedicated episodes but also the fact that most of those episodes are actually related to major things in both character and goal sides, meanwhile between Serena's only 3 dedicated episode, only one addressed her main issue, the other two episodes basically introduced two relevant characters but without even mentioning why they were important in the future (showcases), that's why people is saying that it feels like the writers didn't have a clear plan for her, not because they hate Serena and needs a corner to say the reasons why they apparently hate something.

And again, just because you critizise something doesn't mean that you hate something.

I have many strong emotions about Serena. I find her the most frustrating character in the entire show and would gladly rip apart her entire arc in a long form video essay filled with clickbait and flamebait before rebuilding it from scratch.

I would not describe her as a character the writers had no plan for. They had a plan for her. I just hated her arc, her goal, and the characters surrounding her. They had a plan for her. I just despised every phase of the plan the same way I despise the smell of durian fruit.

Now, if you had to ask me who they had the writers had no plan for, look no further to Lillie. Lillie would be a much better character if she was the main protagonist and Ash was just there to be muscle. Oh wait, we can have Gladion do it instead because why wouldn't you have relatives be a part of a family drama plot?
Honestly the Lillie's development was a bit rushed and it should be better paced. SM had a tendecy to have from decent to good small arcs like the Aether Foundation or the Alola League, but the series had a lot of problems in the long-term writing, this is particulary notable into S18 when a lot of things that happened in S17 or S19 could happened in this season with not many relevant moments
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Legends Arceus shall be a masterpiece
Jesus Christ why is everyone talking about Serena here freaking again, shut up already
I hate any threads about companions now and it's coz everything will boil down to this one frustrating character
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think both Serena and Lillie's pacing issues aren't helped by their general lack of agency, meaning the story kinda struggles to focus on them 'developing' unless it really emphasises and TELLS YOU it's happening. They both got character arcs but a lot of times convenience or the situation being tailor made for them to be effective in it felt like a bigger factor than them actually prevailing.

I'd argue Serena did better in terms of having an ongoing arc the whole series (though it being a competition based arc only furthered the above issue since it lessened the feel she was progressing and learning to cope on her own) while Lillie tended to do better in terms of feeling character driven and having group dynamics and some sort of defining function to avoid being reduced to a background character when the story wasn't focused on her specifically (even if the boys still tended to get most of the chemistry moments by the end of SM). SM having a far more laid back story approach than XY probably helped, it felt like they wanted Serena to be introspective based but formula still insisted on action and competitions. She could rarely even get a single episode without Team Rocket butting in, while Lillie was allowed to just be with her thoughts sometimes.

I admit I kinda prefer Lillie for the fact they kinda took a 'reality ensues' approach and admitted with how little they did with her she obviously was still gonna be underpowered, which made her feel more fallible and likeable, while with Serena they kept trying to give the illusion she was getting better than she really was, to the point of even giving her a mini-battle against Ash post-league where she looked randomly as competent as him. It felt like formula was deciding how well Serena did over her actual character progression which kinda sucks the investment from her. Even her 'red herring' goals at the start of the series rarely had her fail miserably at something, which is maybe why they feel like red herrings and don't contribute as much to her feeling sympathetic.
 
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Pokemonfan5

Well-Known Member
Sorry but if you are talking about Serena and/or Fennekin fear of being dirty, it is not a good example of actual development, because this example was not a part of any prior or later episode, and neither related to Serena's goal.

Beating a phobia is actual development when it is a Main part of the character's Main plot, like Lillie beating her phobia of touching Pokémon or Sophocles beating his phobia of Dark places (You know, space is Dark so this is relevant for his character)
Serena dislike of being dirty is like Lillie fear of heights, both are totally irrelevant for major part of their character and limited to one episode only.

Serena even got dirt on her in episode 7 but she was perfectly fine for that.
 
And you constantly make threads that are pretty much thinly veiled excuses to bash Serena's character, so you're not quite one to talk.
They'll also cry and moan when people point this out and mods delete and lock their crap when it really goes off the rails, but it really isn't a new thing. It's been done multiple times before by multiple different people. There is a user here who did the same shebang a lot more couple years ago and when people called him out on it, he had to embarrassingly create a new account to defend himself.

But of course, when most of these people have joined in 2019 or later, what can you really expect? It's why I laugh when people say this place somehow got toxic with Journeys or something. It's always been toxic. Those old " Controversial Opinion Threads " are a great testament to that. The difference is always the narrative of where the toxicity is aimed.

The " Serena hate corner " comment is especially apt.
 
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