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Which Of Tobias’s Pokemon Was The Superior Battler?

Discussion in 'Animé Polls' started by Genaller, May 19, 2018.

?

Who’s Tobias’s most viable Pokémon?

  1. Darkrai

    73.7%
  2. Latios

    15.8%
  3. Equal

    10.5%
  1. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Tobias! The walking action replay who cost Ash the Sinnoh League had 2 very powerful Pokémon. First up we have his Darkrai whom he used to sweep 8 Sinnoh gym leaders and 5 league trainers including the other league finalist! Darkrai’s moveset is:

    - Ice Beam
    - Dark Void
    - Dream Eater
    - Dark Pulse

    Against Ash Darkrai OHKed Heracross with Dream Eater undoing a significant amount of the damage Heracross did to it with Megahorn. Overpowered and OHKed a tank in Torkoal who had previously given Brandon’s Registeel a run for its money. Dodged a perfect Draco Meteor from Gible and OHKed him though Darkrai did take mild damage from Rock Smash. Lost to Ash’s Sceptile due to Ash’s extreme will power breaking Sceptile out of Dark Void, but left him in a very weakened state from where he could be easily revenge killed which brings us to Tobias’s Latios!

    Tobias’s Latios is his other shown Pokémon that only emerged to battle with Ash. His moveset is:

    - Luster Purge
    - Giga Impact
    - Light Screen
    - ??? (my bet is either Heal Block or Refresh)

    Latios easily overpowered and KOed Sceptile with Giga Impact. After this Latios overpowered Ash’s Swellow’s Aerial Ace (its signature move) with Luster Purge (Latios’s signature move) and OHKed it in the process. This is notable since Swellow has fairly impressive prior tanking feats (though to be fair it was previously immobilized by a single Extremespeed from a wild Deoxys). Latios overwhelms Peakachu (a.k.a Pikachu battling with full cumulative expereince which would be 1 more region of expereince since he beat Brandon’s Regice) in direct combat by overpowering both Volt Tackle and Iron Tail with Giga Impact and it takes Peakachu using his stealth to get on Latios’s back, where Latios can’t reach, for Peakachu to be able to deal heavy damage on him. Only with a combination of Volt Tackle + Iron Tail + gravity boost + insane willpower is Peakachu able to trade even with Latios’s Luster Purge resulting in a huge explosion that KOs both Pokémon.

    So which Pokémon is superior? My take is that while Latios has superior raw power, Darkrai has superior overall battle viability due to its Dark Void + Dream Eater combo that was very likely a major component of why Darkrai could so effectively sweep full teams. Furthermore considering that Tobias spammed Darkrai thoughout Sinnoh, Darkrai was most likely his “Ace” similar to how Mega Charizard X was Alain’s Ace that he also disproportionately spammed. I think the overall difference is marginal (I’d rate them less than even a sub letter grade apart) though I do consider Darkrai to be the superior battler overall.
     
  2. satopi

    satopi Go’s Scyther is indestriketible! <3

    I guess Darkai? I mean we didn't get to see his other Pokémon...
     
  3. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    This is one of those things that there just isn't enough evidence to truly say one way or another. I would guess Darkrai, as it's his go-to ace, but that doesn't automatically make it the strongest.
     
    Hunter Zolomon likes this.
  4. Hunter Zolomon

    Hunter Zolomon Into the Shadows Staff Member Moderator

    This is basically what I was thinking as well. We have no clue who is 4 other Pokemon are. He could have had more Legendary Pokemon for all we know.
     
  5. Mr. Reloaded

    Mr. Reloaded An enigma

    Darkrai mid-diffed an entire region by itself, that's pretty good. [​IMG]

    But like what everyone is saying because we saw so little of Latios (and the other 4) it's a little baseless to really call Darkrai the strongest.
     
  6. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Standby for Battle!

    It can't be Darkrai now since it's a glass cannon that fainted to Ash's Sceptile from just 2 hits from Leaf Blade after it's health got recovered 90-100%,Solar Beam,Hyper Beam,Wood Hammer,Volt Tackle,and Blast Burn are stronger attacks than Leaf Blade.
     
  7. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    Can you really call something that single-handedly swept an entire region's worth of battles and several Sinnoh League battles a glass cannon?

    And really, the anime has never been consistent when it comes to relative strength of moves and total HP. Just because Darkrai just healed itself, doesn't necessarily mean it was back to near full strength. And fainting against Leaf Blade doesn't say anything on its own.
     
  8. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Standby for Battle!

    I don't believe it went back to full health at all nor do I think Sceptile single handedly took out Tobias's Darkrai.It isn't always consistent with the moves but in this situation Darkrai who easily swept the gyms and league shouldn't be going down from a Leaf Blade,especially if it fully recovered it's health from Dream Eater.People should just accept the fact that Sceptile had help from Heracross and Gible.
     
  9. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Okay PBF that’s enough. No one claimed that Sceptile KOed a full health Darkrai, but yeah Darkrai did have the majority of its health (roughly 70-80%) before Sceptile struck with a pair of critical hit Leaf Blades at the moment that Darkrai was caught off guard due to Sceptile getting up so early (because of Ash’s willpower). No one seriously thinks Sceptile can beat it 1 vs 1, but at the same time you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Sceptile deserves the bulk of the credit for taking it down. Also FYI Latios got KOed by a several close range Thunderbolts (most of which had their damage cut in half thanks to Light Screen in addition to already being nve) + the final gravity boosted Volt Tackle - Iron Tail combo (okay that makes it more respectable but let’s not act like Latios was some kind of juggernaut tank).

    Note: (this is for everyone) I meant Tobias’s best on-screen Pokemon a.k.a. Who’s better between Darkrai and Latios only.
     
  10. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Standby for Battle!

    I'm giving Sceptile some credit but not all of it,it got help from both Heracross and Gible,point blank period.Latios took way more attacks than a restored health Darkrai did and Volt Tackle+Iron Tail is clearly more powerful than Sceptile's Leaf Blade.
     
  11. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    You don’t get a very important point; damage dealt to a Pokémon is not only dependent on the move’s power but also the move’s precision. 2 Leaf Blades were enough to beat a 70-80% healthy Darkrai since they were critical hits (the secondary effect of Leaf Blade is a greater critical hit ratio not to mention you can visually see how clean Sceptile’s strikes were) and Darkrai was caught off guard as I mentioned previously. Latios took 5 Thunderbolts 3 Of which were halved in effectiveness (in addition to already not being very effective) by Light Screen, so prior to VT + IT Latios really didn’t have to deal with much. Is VT + IT stronger than Sceptile’s Leaf Blade?Obviously yes though is it more precise? No!
     
  12. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Standby for Battle!

    Sceptile had help.Point.Blank.Period.
     
  13. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    Sorry, did I misunderstand your initial post? I'm re-reading it again right now, and I'm pretty sure you said that Sceptile 2-hit-KO'd Darkrai while it had 90-100% of its health. Am I reading it wrong, or did you make a mistake in your post? I'm referring specifically to this part:

    Don't you think those are two rather large assumptions you made? How could you know how much health Darkrai had, and that the Leaf Blades were Critical Hits? As far as I know, Critical Hits aren't even a thing in the anime.

    In a completely unrelated question, I've been wondering, why does your signature say Peakachu instead of Pikachu?
     
  14. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Admiral Centiskorch

    Yeah it's just the help he had wasn't as helpful as you think it is ;)
     
    Genaller likes this.
  15. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    No I really don’t. Well first off let me correct you; “critical hits” have been explicitly addressed in the anime on multiple occasions, so there existence isn’t an assumption (we even have moves like Focus Energy in the anime which have the soul function of increasing crit ratio). I really shouldn’t have to mention that the placement (area of impact) and precision (“depth”) of an attack are obviously going to affect the amount of damage that the attack does. Also it’s a well supported claim that an attack deals more damage on a Pokémon caught off guard than it would against a Pokémon on guard (please let me know if you’d like concrete examples for any of the claims I’m making). In addition the sharpness of Sceptile’s strikes are visually shown indicating a critical hit (which goes in-line with Leaf Blade’s secondary effect). In any case the probability that they were critical hits is substantially higher than its negation, hence the proposition that “the Leaf Blades were critical hits” is carried forward.

    As far as Darkrai’s health goes; let’s see prior to Sceptile getting up it would be:

    min{min{DH + 0.5HH - MH, DH} - RS + (a/2)SH, DH} where DH = Darkrai’s max health, HH = Heracross’s max health, MH = damage dealt to Darkrai by Heracross’s Megahorn, RS = damage dealt to Darkrai by Gible’s Rock Smash, SH = Sceptile’s max health and a is some number between 0 and 1 exclusive that indicates the proportion of health Sceptile lost due to Dream Eater (note: health is restored by only half the amount of the damage dealt by Dream Eater). Other givens:

    MH < DH and RS < min{DH + 0.5HH - MH, DH}. Also we know that IB + aSH < (7/8)SH where IB = damage dealt to Sceptile by Darkrai’s Ice Beam the 7/8 fraction is there on the right hand side since we know that Sceptile took 1 iteration of Bad Dreams due to it seeing images of Darkrai while asleep. From there we have a < 7/8 - IB/SH. Now here’s where assumptions start coming in. I’ll assume that the relative difference between Ice Beam and Dream Eater (both non-StAB moves for Darkrai) is the same as it is in the games meaning that the damage Ice Beam dealt on Sceptile would be approximately 1.9 (95 * 2 / 100 (based on gen 4 base powers)) times more than that of Dream Eater giving us 1.9aSH +aSH < (7/8)SH <=> 2.9a < (7/8) <=> a < 35/116 ~ 0.3 a.k.a Darkrai could have at most gotten roughly 15% of Sceptile’s max health with the 2nd Dream Eater.

    Objectivity ends at this point since now it’s a matter of Pokémon “tiering” namely what is Heracross’s and Sceptile’s max health relative to Darkrai’smax health and what is Heracross’s and Gible’s offensive power relative to Darkrai’s defense with the answers to these questions determine the required value. Long story short we get a fairly high confidence interval for Darkrai’s health being anywhere between 50 - 100%. From there I just assumed a normal distribution meaning that the possibilities with the highest “weight” would center around the mean (75%) making 75% + or - 5% or 70 - 80% the range where the required value should most likely be.
     
  16. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    Do you happen to have an example? I honestly can't remember myself. I checked the Bulbapedia page on Critical Hits, and they normally have an "In The Anime" section for things that have appeared in the anime, but there's no such section there. Short of checking every episode, that's the best I can do to check if they've been mentioned or not.

    That technically can't be seen as indicative of anything, seeing how the anime changes the effects of moves all the time to suit its needs. Examples include Dragon Tail not forcing a switch out, Will-O-Wisp being used as an offensive move, and more. Focus energy easily could have been edited to just increase the focus of the Pokémon, or something like that.

    Sure, I can agree with all that.

    Even if Critical Hits do exist, this is were you lose me. That "sharpness" is just a visual effect to make the move look cool. It really doesn't suggest anything concrete about if it were a Critical Hit. The only way to truly know if a Pokémon has landed a Critical Hit in the anime is for a character to say so. Anything short of that, and we're just assuming, even if it is an educated assumption.

    I'm not going to lie, you kind of lost me there with the math, but after reading it a couple times I think I get what you're saying. Anyways, you said it yourself that you're making assumptions, and you also admit that some of those assumptions are based on your subjective "tiers." The fact of the matter is, we can never truly know how much damage is being dealt at any one time due to how inconsistent the anime can be, and how different from the games it is. I'm impressed by how much thought you put into this, but it's not proving anything, and my original point of you passing off assumptions as truths still holds.
     
  17. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    Yeah don’t even get me started on how inaccurate bulbapedia have been on some matters. Go look at Pokémon DP Episode 15 where Cranidos uses Focus Energy and in particular note Brock’s statement following its use (watch the actual episode please).



    Alright and what’s the ratio of moves in the anime that do work like their in-game counter-parts to those that don’t? The overwhelming majority of moves in the anime do work like their in-game counterparts hence the default stance is that a given move will work like it does in the game until contrary evidence is presented in the anime a.k.a the burden of proof falls on you for showing that a given move doesn’t conform to the game’s standards rather than for me to show that it does. Don’t confuse plausibility and probability.


    You do realize that those are what “critical hits” translate to in the anime right?



    Well that’s an epistemological difference since I see that sharpness as indicative of more than just “being cool”.
    Not knowing =/= both possibilities being equally likely. Darkrai being caught off guard (factual) and the sharpness of Sceptile’s Leaf Blade strikes possibly (but apparently not conclusively) indicating precision does increase the probability of those hits being crits. when we have 2 contrary options, the option with the highest probability is carried forward and in this case that would be that those hits were crits.


    Eh tiering really isn’t all that subjective when it comes to overall battle viability, but it does get subjective when considering specific stat allocations. Regardless there should be a positive correlation between max health and attack power (this isn’t an assumption) a.k.a the more damage you think Heracross dealt Darkrai, the more health Darkrai must have gotten back with Dream Eater and vice versa. I mean for example the probability that say Megahorn reduces Darkrai’s health to 10% but Darkrai only gets 10% of its max health back from Dream Eater (a.k.a Heracross only had a 5th of Darkrai’s max health) is so absurdly low that one would have to be certifiably insane to accept it. If you’re accusing me of passing of my claim as a deductive truth, then you’d be wrong. People who’ve seen enough of my posts know that unless stated otherwise when I state something I mean that it’s most likely true (has a higher probability of being true than any of its contraries). Do I think 70 - 80% is definitely where Darkrai’s health lies prior to LB? No (could conceivably be 55% or 100%), but do I think the probability of Darkrai’s health being in the range of 70 -80% is greater than the probability of Darkrai’s health being in any other rasnge with a 5% radius? Yes I do.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  18. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Assassin Kid

    Like OK? Any E4 member's ace would be able to do so. Darkrai defeated Gym Leaders and League caliber Pokemon --> that's not beyond the reach of any E4 ace Pokemon like say Lucian's Bronzong, Bertha's Hippowdon and Flint's Infernape. Let's not assume that just because Darkrai went through all the Sinnoh Gyms undefeated and swept every SL trainer in faced sans means that Darkrai is par with some God-tier Legendaries we see in the movies. It has its own strengths, it has own weaknesses. It is definitey monster in its own League compared to the Gym Leaders and most of the SL competitors, but that does not mean that it's a Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza/Dialga/Palkia level monster who can just 'no sell' attacks from non-legendary Pokemon like a joke.

    It's still a very powerful Pokemon which is beyond the level of regular League calibre trainers, but still on that level that some highly trained non-Legendaries commanded by skilled trainers can take it down. Especially if they utilise Darkrai's weaknesses to good effect. Like Darkrai does have some sheer raw power and a deadly status combo in Dark Void/Dream Eater, but on the other hand its tankiness isn't that much high. So if a Pokemon manages to overcome Darkrai's bag of tricks like its deadly status combo and land a couple of direct, powerful blows on it, then it's quite possible that Darkrai goes down mainly in a couple of blows. Which Ash's Sceptile did BTW. It was a high level non-legendary with some serious willpower, commanded by a skilled trainer that is DP Ash. Through it's intense willpower it broke through the deadly status combo, and landed a couple of major blows on an unsuspecting Darkrai to take it dow. With some help from Heracross/Gible, which was mostly recovered through Dream Eater.

    Dream Eater can restore a significant amount of health as shown in some occasions in the anime, like in Pikachu vs Agatha Gengar. And Darkrai literally OHKO'd a full health Heracross with Dream Eater, so in that case the healing from Dream Eater was very likely significant (since the amount of health one Pokemon gets from Dream Eater very likely would depend upon how much health the opponent had).
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  19. Bguy7

    Bguy7 The Dragon Lord

    I think we're both arguing different things here. Everything you've said here is speculation. It's really good speculation, but it just can't proven. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but that doesn't mean it's factual either. The only reason I left my original post is because you phrased yours in such a way that you were passing off speculation as fact, and no matter how good the speculation is, that just shouln't be done.

    I never meant to imply that. All I was trying to say is that the term glass cannon probably isn't the best description of Darkrai, given how much it endured.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  20. 345ash-greninja

    345ash-greninja Assassin Kid

    TBH it was somewhat on the glass canony side, though what some people like to believe that Darkrai was so much of a glass canon that Hercross and Gible weakened it severely enough which allowed Sceptile to land the final blow to defeat it and finish the job, even after it used Dream Eater twice, not once, it pretty much ridiculous and does not make any sense. It was majority of Sceptile's work with some amount of help from Heracross and Gible(that too majorly being recovered by Dream Eater).

    And different Pokemon have different strengths and weaknessess. Darkrai being on the glass canony side does not make it any less powerful. It's just Darkrai's strength lies in its sheer raw power of Dark Pulse/Ice Beam, and it deadly status combo of Dark Void/Dream Eater, whilst its weakness lies on the tanky side.
     

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