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Which recurring/past character would you like to battle/meet Ash in Kalos

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by OfCorsola, Apr 30, 2014.

  1. Pokegirl Fan~

    Pokegirl Fan~ Tsundere Girl

    Paul because I feel that they should battle one more time to follow up the Sinnoh League battle.
     
  2. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "What are yeh looking at. Gimme my booty back."

    This should happen. For some reason, the writers saw it fit to give him one last shot seeing Ash getting owned by Tobias. (Trip should have had a shot too, but...)
     
  3. Lord Trollbias

    Lord Trollbias Y'all Salty Bishes

    So Noland gets a free pass for using a Pokemon that he doesn't even own that is probably stronger than his regulars because? Oh they're friends. Not like Tobias probably doesn't command the respect and probably friendship of his Legendaries based on the fact that they willingly obey him whereas Legendaries have been shown to resist forceful captures (even after being captured) in the past.
    Oh Brandon's job means he gets to study Legends so that gives him a free pass? Tobias is a trainer. His job is to catch Pokemon (legally). Which he did, so the Brandon's job excuse doesn't fly either.
    Again this is the POKEMON LEAGUE. This isn't some junior trainer tournament. This is where the best trainers in a region come together to earn a shot at the Elite 4 and Champion. If the other trainers can't keep up to his level that's their fault, and honestly if they can't touch Tobias why even bother with the League. They'd get wrecked by the Elite 4.
    That Dream Void combination is one of the best strategic moves in the anime so don't give me that no strategy argument either. And again you're telling me that the man captured not one but 2 Legendary Pokemon without at least training one non-Legendary to be powerful enough to stand against Legends, let alone the fact that he tamed the Legends ad brought them effectively under his command.
    All this comes off across is being bitter because the writers decided to say screw it to the "Ash must befriend the guy who eventually knocks him out of the League formula while also having an extremely close battle that no doubt goes to the wire only for him to lose narrowly just to piss you off." I'm actually glad Tobias won 6-2. Ash at peak DP was at his best and many wondered if he had any room to develop more as a trainer other than winning the League and being written off. Tobias shows that Ash still has quite a bit to go before he can become a Pokemon Master.
     
  4. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    I did not say free pass. I said there was no backstory. It's not explained why Tobias was able to capture those Pokémon and given that they are legendary Pokémon most viewers would expect it to be explained. Given Tobias has no backstory there is no evidence that he caught the Pokémon himself. A range of scenarios are possible including commissioning Hunter J. And yes given the fact that Nolan and Articuno are friends and were shown to be so does provide a good explanation as to why they were working together. The whole point of Pokémon is friendship and the importance of bonds, trust and love in training Pokémon has always been a core element of the franchise. Having befriend Articuno shows Nolan was a good natured and kind person whereas Tobias had zero personality.

    Even if it is the POKEMON LEAGUE the elite four are miles ahead of any in the competition. We've never actually seen anyone go on from the league to take on the champion. There is a massive skill gap between the POKEMON LEAGUE and the elite four and champion. In every battle that has involved a member of the elite four or the champion usually there tends to be very little competition and the champion or elite four member wins quite easily. For example Ash, despite as you say being at his peak in DP and possibility being one of the strongest in the league he wasn't able to stand up to Flint. Also nearly all of Paul's team were defeated by Cyntia's Garchomp. The league doesn't mean there instantly the best. All entrance to the league means is that a trainer has beaten the 8 gyms and earned the badge. The threshold isn't that high. There is a mix of skill in most leagues. In Unova Trip was entering his first league, Ash his fifth. There not the best of the best. Similar in Sinnoh Barry was implied to be starting out as well.

    I'm not bitter about anything. That is ridiculous. Ash could have lost to any trainer using any number of Pokémon. 6-3., 6-4, 6-5 it doesn't really matter. It was why he was using legendary Pokémon without any real explanation was my point. It looks like the writers were taking the piss - finding the easiest way to knock Ash out of the league. It would have been less of a piss take if he had was using Pokémon like Salamence or Lucario, which are strong but are not Uber Pokémon. People complain about 6-5 but not about 6-2. The Dream Void combination isn't really a strategy. Tobias and Darkrai didn't come up with that together, Darkrai already do that as was shown in the Movie the Rise of Darkrai. And that was the only strategy. He's just relying on the fact that Darkrai is much more powerful than any other Pokémon out there.

    I don't think Ash was at his best in DP. There are too many factors involved to determine that including the level of competition. The strength and abilities of his team have been roughly the same in each region except Kanto
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
  5. PikaBones

    PikaBones Zone

    Bring back Tyson so that Pikachu can have a rematch against that over confident cowboy Meowth.
    I would also love Duplica to come back, it would definitely be a good time.
     
  6. Pokegirl Fan~

    Pokegirl Fan~ Tsundere Girl

    Dawn should return so that she can meet Serena and so we can get some cute interactions between the two.
     
  7. XYMewtwo

    XYMewtwo Rising Star

    Wow. I remember there being an interview with like a writer or something, and he said "which character would you like to see again?" iirc so this question is actually pretty relevant.

    That being said, It would be a dream come true seeing Misty or Brock come back. That's probably not gonna happen, so I wouldn't mind May or Dawn either. The interactions between these characters and their personalities is crazy to think about. As for guys, Paul and Gary are among my favorites for coming back. No offense to BW fans, but Iris can stay in Unova xD
     
  8. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    Ash had so many battles through history of pokemon series with good chunk of them never even being finished. Or just didn't gave satisfaction and enough memorable experience wanting people to see them redeemed.

    Naturally each of us have different tastes and criteria of what challenge between Ash and other trainers was well executed and enjoyale. Or wasn't.

    Therefore as much as we try to be objective as individuals in our responses, decisions will at least partially be influenced by our personal bias and wishful thinking.

    So my choices will obviously have certain doze of personal preference in it:
    I would like to see Ash rechallenge this characters the most:

    Paul: people can say what they want but Paul is one of best rivals Ash ever had imo. His sneer, collected and callous nature being in constant search for power and recognition presented serious obstacle for main hero to overcome. Paul was like antithesis to Ash character shaking up his core and confidence in starting to reconsider if his friendship and bonds with pokemon are truly most effective way to become strong?

    For that reason alone i would be interested in seeing Ash clash with Paul in all out battle once more. Especially when Paul didn't even used arguably some of his most powerful pokremon like Torterra, Ursaring and Magmortar with two of them being responsible for destroying Ash team in their first full battle.,

    Making me curious to see how would Ash face against this pokemon mixed with best ones used against him in quarterfinals.

    Misty: maybe its just me but out of all four battles Ash had with her, none of them went without some unexpected problem wanting to see one serious, full match going on between this two.

    Because in Cerulean gym battle was interrupted, in battle for Togepi Ash won by tickling Psyduck with Bulbasaur. Totodile duel was treated like real battle, but still first round with Togepi against Pikachu could hardly be considered as fight.

    Lastly in Whirl Cup Psyduck ruined momentum by popping out of pokeball .

    Its no secret how in behavior and adventurous spirit Misty was closest to acting like rival out of travel companions to Ash at times due to both having big competitive fire between them. Always trying to prove each other wrong and bragged about skills with there existing healthy amount of criticism,witty quips and arguing in who is more knowledeable and better trainer.

    Heck Misty even called Ash rival few times in OS and joked about it in Mastermind special remembering times she used to travel with him.

    So neither would back down to another battle between themselves.

    I would love to see Ash using mega evolved Charizard, Sceptile or maybe Heracross against Misty mega Gyarados or potential other water pokemon capable of mega evolving.

    Scenario which would lead to this isn't hard to create either.

    Because there exists several good plots and reasons for Misty to travel to Kalos advancing her water master dream. Allowing for this to happen either through tournament(Battle Chateau or water competition organized by E4 Siebold sounds pretty good) both would enter or outside of it.

    Or simply having Ash rechallenge her at Cerulean for old time sake to properly finish their battle way back when they barely knew each other.

    To test their strength and power of newly evolved mega forms, how much they improved and hopefully wash out unfair stigma of Misty being "weak trainer because of using one type of pokemon".

    All i know is that seeing those two battle sgain would be something to remember.

    May: whenever i watch "Once More with Reeling!" i question how would battle between Ash Sceptile and May Blaziken end if they didn't run out of time.

    May is one of Ash strongest traveling companions posessing impressive collection of pokemon and certain raw, straightforward approach in battles kept as legacy from Ash nfluence, That she often managed to completely catch opponents of guard through her more brutal, pushy techniques.

    So seeing her challenge Ash with that same pokemon they never had chance to finish battle with. Facing in one corner mega Blaziken while in other Mega Sceptile settling down unfinished score they had left at end of Battle Frontier would be truly fantastic to see.

    Having things come full circle in sense through this scrimage and revealing if "student surpassed its teacher". Considering how at least partially Ash could be considered as one in May case.

    Katie from Hoenn league: she was everything you could have wished for female rival to Ash. Smart, competent, calculated with certain dose of arrogance and smug to her behavior.

    She not only brought Ash to ropes but completely outplayed and countered every possible move he had. By flexibly using her pokemon team changing it depending on who Ash sent in the ring.

    Relying on moves and special abilities she knew would deliver mot damage putting Ash pokemon in critical stage and even revealed selfdestructive tendencies in not minding to sacrifice her pokemon if it meant taking down one of her opponents in process. Like it was case with Misdreavus and Glalie.

    In last confrontation bwetween Growyle and Walrein she really pushed Ash to maximum of his limits having to quickly figure out way in overcoming advantage her pokemon had.

    Its shame that we never had such fierce, artful and knowledgeable type of female rival for Ash in longer run.

    So with no further delay yes i would like to see Ash challenge Katie again and considering how she is regular trainer like he is. Travels the world, catch new pokemon and seeks for ways to become more powerful. Its really not that hard to imagine seeing each other meet in some of upcoming future leagues having to battle again.

    That is if writers cared enough to revisit her character which i doubt it will be the case. But still good idea imo nonetheless.

    I cant believe this comment went unnoticed. One of definitely most cool ideas i read in this thread. :cool:

    Not to mention it would make lot of sense from anime angle as well. Misty in anime wanted to become water pokemon master with traveling being required to make more groundbreaking progress. As showed with strong tournaments like Whirl Cup which explain abit about whole title and connection to "Almpha Omega" name winner of tournament gets. Being needed to win them to advance forward.

    She idolize E4 Lorelei wishing to become strong and recognozed water expert like her one day. So seeing her go on journey to enter tournaments with strong competution, try to mega evolve her pokemon like Gyarados learning how to unlock full power of her pokemon, catch new water types and meet other water secialists(like E4 Siebold who is marked as water master in games)would make a lot of sense.

    Fitting Misty spirited nature and determination to make name for herself as water trainer. Since E4 are best mono trainers in world , Misty trying to become E4 one day would be logical progression of her career making her achieve dream of becoming water master that way.We dont have E4 female using water pokemon, so theres that as well.

    Afterall she specifically stated in chronicles when expressing sadnes over sisters laziness how she "has no choice but to stay at gym for time being, because of sisters being of no use". Confirming how main reason behind being there is to help family out which was reinforced in her last cameo when being frustrated of not having anyone to rely on being rushed to return home.

    Most of all seeing Ash and Misty competing for same thing (which is possible given their goal connections to E4 and if they need to enter same tournaments to advance dreams) finding themselves on opposing sides would bring new texture to their friendship testing how strong bond between them there really is, serving as gateway toward their relationship reaching new depth of respect, admiration,healthy arguing and care.

    With there always existing certain competitive string between Ash and Misty liking to brag about skills, outsmart each other through witty comments, arguing in proving who is right and equally big passion for battles and pokemon.

    Delivering lot of appeal and natural,fun interaction.

    EDIT:
    P.S.
    To AuraChannelerChris: im confused by content of your question. I listed characters i would like to see Ash battle/rematch again giving elaborated explanation behind each of my choices.

    In case you somehow much to my surprise missed it, its above my reply to another person.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  9. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "What are yeh looking at. Gimme my booty back."

    Uh... So who do you want Ash to rematch again? I got lost...
     
  10. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Paul is a villan not a rival

    I disagree with your comment about Paul. Paul was less of a rival and more of a villain really. He was cruel and abusive to his Pokémon, Chimchar in particular. He was mean to Chimchar, constantly belittled him and then kicked him out because he didn't meet his expectations. There was absolutely no excuse for that. The anime shows Pokémon as sapient beings who have feelings so it's completely wrong to treat them effectively as battle slaves like Paul did. Treat others the way you want to be treated - Not difficult Paul. Prior to Paul this sort of attitude towards Pokémon was only even demonstrated by Pokémon poachers, Team Rocket and the shows villains. It's never been in question that friendship and bonds with pokemon are truly most effective way to become strong? Ash didn't loose his conviction in the importance of a strong bond for a moment, even if his confidence did diminish after some of his battles with Paul. He even took Chimchar in after Paul rejected him.

    In my opinion Paul was handled badly by the anime. He should have been made to feel remorse and sorrow for his actions towards Pokémon and I would like to have seen him on his knees begging Chimchar for being so cruel - Possibly after Ash and Chimchar had saved him from another Pokémon that was attacking him for his mistreatment of it. The only character in the DP series who was worse than Paul was Hunter J - And there was never any pretence that she was anything more than evil. As such Hunter J got quite the comeuppance - Killed in a plane crash which is one of the most violent scenes ever in Pokémon. I personally would not object to something similar happening to Paul though given it's a children's show a strong act of repentance would have be preferable.

    If Paul ever does come back to the series it should be to receive justice for his actions and attitudes towards Chimchar not to be glorified or justified in battle. The anime is a children's program and it has always made point of the importance of friendship and kindness to others. Having a strong bond of friendship love and trust has always been the core message in Pokémon. That is beyond impeachment - Are people honestly trying to say that treating Chimchar like S*** was justifiable. Why Paul never had his trainers license revoked is beyond me.
     
  11. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    Thats fine.

    Its always good to hear different thoughts on certain subjects, so i welcome that you shared with me how your feeling about Paul characterization and actions in pokemon series.

    Although maybe i should have been more clear in my thoughts, because im in no way condoning Paul cruel, at times heartless behavior directed toward various pokemon. Like Azumarill being dropped after losing battle against Rpark, catching Stantler and immediately getting rid of it. Most of all in abuse and mistreeatment Chimchar experienced. Suffering psychological trauma which derailed in rage controlling issues and insecurity doubting in his abilities.

    But what i personally appreciated from Paul existence was amount of tension, drama and clash of ideals going between him and Ash brought to journey and main plot.
    Providing to main protagonist until that point possibly biggest challenge he was up against. Questioning everything in which Ash believed for his whole life. Of treating pokemon with patience and kindness. View them as sensible beings who has thoughts, intelligence and emotions trying to bring out their full strength through teamwork and close bonds.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In essence;
    I believe reason why Paul was portrayed as inconsiderate toward pokemon, used pragmatic approach not caring about their feelings and friendship abandoning those he deems as "less worthy". Had arrogant and ingrain side to himself.

    Was all done with purpose to deliver other side of coin which is rarely explained in pokemon world. Presenting new layer to competitive scene in pokemon world. In sense of following parallel with real life and how sometime people can become so much caught in competition, rivalry, proving themselves to others to the point of ending completely consumed with desire for fame, strengt and success.

    To the point of forgetting what drove them in first place to like some sport or discipline not being anymore able to relax and enjoy in it. Hardening up as persons and just following their own selfish interests in search for power and reputation.

    I believe Paul calculated, pragmatic nature also well represented how things in competitive metagame as far as pokemon gaming goes function.

    Where players look for most practical and easiest way in achieving best possible score and assemble strongest pokemon team. Where competitive playrs wont hesitate in sending weaker pokemon often using them as cannon fodder to palpate situation of what kind of strategy opposing player is focused on. Wont use potions on their more damaged pokemon with weaker stats. Wont hesitate in trading them for more powerful pokemon suitable for their strategy. Evolve them as fast as they can to have bigger, more resistant and sturdy team.

    Or just neglect or abandon pokemon with less impressive IV or EV stats just to catch wild pokemon with better predispositions to gain best possible results with less effort and hard work involved in making it powerful.

    And Paul character quite faithfully reflected this through his acts and spartan like methods of training. Looking only for most optimal way to achieve big results without dedicating his time in working on developing attachment and friendship with pokemon which might be flowers which bloom late. Taking more patience and care to be raised, overlooking how reward can be really high(as Ash proved with Chimchar).

    Good chunk of Paul behavior and cold nature originated from how his older brother Reggie he considered as idol gave up on being pokemon trainer after suffering defeat from Brandon. This ignited in Paul character who wanted to look up to his older brother disappointment, embitterment and resentment.

    Starting to view Reggie as failure whose friendly elationship with pokemon and spending time on forming partnership with them made him "weak".

    Wanting to differentiate himself from that and asoid ending up as his brother at all costs. Turning in cold, calculated and cynical person who forgot how to enjoy in journey, pokemon and their unique atributes only wanting to be most efficient as possible. Searching for respect, recognition and power to prove to himself and brother how he wont become like him.

    Serving as one of most gratifying and appropriate opponents for Ash. Bringing in question his moral values and beliefs of treating your pokemon as friends growing stronger through trust, mutual respect and loyalty.

    Considering how Paul inconsiderate and irreverent approach created just as equal results through his harsh methods to the point of even delivering crushing defeat to main character in their first 6 vs 6 battle. Making Ash question his methods of training and starting to innovate by applying some of contest techniques leading to born of counter shield.

    What i valued about Paul actions regardless of disliking them was ability to shake up core of main protagonist. Seeing deeper exploration of Ash beliefs in treating pokemon with love and care being only right way to establish harmony and balanced power.
    How much passion he invoked from Ash and steadiness to fight for his beliefs not backing down. But emerging stronger from that challenge and motivation Paul character through rivalry provided to story. In sense of rooting for main hero and wanting to see him succeed being all that more gratifying when i saw both Ash and Chimchar(now fully evolved Infernape)proving Paul how wrong he was about Ash battle style.

    Arguably cracking some of that hard shell of his as well. As evidenced in Paul starting to view Ash in more respecting light and doing something for first time. Thanking his Electivire after losing battle for good job when recalling it back. Being sign of how Ash actions may have left influence on his character signalizing slow change for better. In starting to look at his pokemon in more caring light.

    Reason why i want to see Paul battle Ash again is to see how would he fare against some of Paul best pokemon. He never used in Lily of Valley conference(especially Torterra).

    To see if Paul has changed as trainer and persion becoming more open and understanding(because without those qualities he wont be able to obtain mega power of pokemon reaching next level of strength and energy hindering his further growth). Possibly hearing how his rematch against Brandon went and deliver that excitement and thrill of unpredictability clash between Paul and Ash guaranteed to bring. Knowing you can expect duel of high quality with both characters still being technically rivals.

    Never stopping to have that fiery competition and urge to succeed between themselves.
     
  12. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Always nice to hear other opinions. I would like to make a few comments on some of the points you have raised.

    That’s a good point but I’m not sure what you mean by questioning everything in which Ash believed. I don’t believe it was ever in question that treating Pokémon with kindness and patience is the right thing to do. Pokémon are shown consistently in the anime to be sapient beings with thoughts and feelings similar to those of humans. Several Pokémon are even shown to be smarter than humans; Ninetails, Alakazam and most legendaries for example. So I see it as being completely unreasonable to treat them in any way lesser than you would treat another Pokémon.
    We were shown very clearly in the anime that Chimchar became traumatised and depressed as a result of his time with Paul so it cannot be said that Paul’s methods should be seen as an impeachment of Ash’s.
    I don’t personally think Paul’s methods achieved equal results. All Paul did was rely on capturing Pokémon that were already strong. No matter how much of your Pokémon’s ability you can bring out through friendship issues such as type advantage and physical strength will always factor into the equation. Paul’s Pokémon are powerhouses. Most of them were fully evolved and many of them were trained by his brother and not him. By contrast Ash’s Pokémon in the early series were much lower levelled, were not fully evolved and were arguably weaker. On balance of probabilities they were always likely to loose just as an Eevee would have little chance of defeating a Salamence. While Paul could come up with a decent strategy his victories over Ash were thanks to using already powerful Pokémon, not because he had trained them.

    However, Ash’s training methods over the course of the DP series saw his Pokémon become incredibly proficient battlers whereas Paul’s stayed about the same. Hence Ash was able to win at the league in his match against Paul. In all likelihood top 8 in the Sinnoh league is about as far as Paul will get. His cruelty and his cold-heartedness will hold him back.

    Paul’s not the first character to treat Pokémon poorly and use them as tools and to mistreat them. This sort of behaviour has been demonstrated by many characters in the show; Giovanni, Butch and Cassidy, Dr. Namba, Colress, Cyrus, the Pokémon poacher brothers and most of all Hunter J.

    The difference – all of these characters are clearly identified as villains without any pretence to the contrary. What’s odd with Paul is that he’s being treated as a legitimate rival rather than as a villain, despite being essentially the same. I’ll do a comparison – Paul and Hunter J. They both have clear identifiable goals – Paul wants to win the league Hunter J wants to earn an income. They both ruthlessly pursue their goals without thought of the People or Pokémon they hurt. Paul was prepared to dump Azumarill and abandon Chimchar after insulting it, whereas Hunter J was happy to turn Pikachu into stone and set a forest on fire in order to execute her contract. Paul constantly insulted people he thought were weaker than himself including Ash, Dawn and even Maylene. Hunter J never treated her staff with any respect and even threw several of them out an aircraft.

    Hunter J challenged Ash’s beliefs as much as Paul did but was portrayed as someone who needed to be stopped rather than as a rival to create challenge and motivation. Ash went to great lengths to stop Hunter J in all her exploits in the same way he was motivated by Paul. Difference – Hunter J ends up in lake and Paul just looses the league. This to me seems to be too much of an imbalance in justice in the program. Despite being a children’s program you could easily interpret Paul to be saying it’s okay to treat others as you want and step all over them to get what you want.

    The emphasis on Paul and Ash’s fiery rivalry whitewashes the deep immorality, cruelty and viciousness that is Paul’s character. There have been duels of high quality between Ash and other villains in the show that are not considered rivalry’s, and in most cases the victories go to prove Ash’s convictions. Pikachu fighting Colress’s mind control device (showing the power of their bond), Pikachu and Sparky defeating Dr. Namba’s Electabuzz (proving trust is more important than anger in brining out strength), Ash risking his life to save Pikachu, and then later Riolu from Hunter J, Pikachu breaking out of Giovanni’s cage and saving Meloetta. Brock’s Crogunk defeating Saturn’s Toxicroack at Spear Pillar. In all of these cases the Villians receive a comeuppance for their misdeeds against Pokémon. Team’s Galactic and Plasma are arrested, Dr. Namba’s plan falls apart around him and he ends up stuck in the middle of the ocean and Hunter J dies the most spectacular death of any character in Pokémon ever. Why should any fight with Paul be legitimised as mere competition when the battles with other characters are essentially a fight between good and evil with an ultimate triumph for the good guys. Portraying any rematch as a duel between rivals is letting Paul of the hook for the many Pokémon he has trampled on to obtain that skill.

    That sort of Fiery competition and duel of high quality is something you get more with a rival like Cameron or Richie. Someone who doesn't act unethically but rather is kind and caring towards Pokémon and shares Ash's passion and ambition. That makes for a much more enjoyable rivalry than one with a character who is essentially a villain.

    Cameron's one of Ash's best rivals in my opinion which is why I would like to see Ash battle him again. He and Ash had good chemistry. They both had the same passion and love for Pokémon, they both had a strong bond with their partner Pokémon and they both had a strong ambition to be better than the other. This friendly rivalry makes for a fiery competition which usually translates to an exciting battle. I would love to see Pikachu take on Cameron's Lucario again hopefully with Cameron being able to use mega evolution. It would be good to see how both boys have progressed as trainers since their battle at the Vetress conference and have the opportunity to show off what they have learned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
  13. phanpycross

    phanpycross God-king

    Cameron and Ash's "Chemistry" was nothing special, it was the exact same thing as we saw with Tyson, Morrison, Harrison,Barry etc. 99% of trainers in the show s just as passionate as those two tbh. You wanna see a really good version of hat you're descriping, step one episode back, and watch Ash vs. Stephan, argubly the best battle of unova. Both trainers are extremely passionate, compittive, and neither pulls move like sending out grass/steel against a fire type. the battle is faster, smarter, doesnt outright shaft 4 pokemon to glorify pikachu, and showcases some actual strategy from Ash's side by having him teach his krookodile to counter one of his weaknesses IE fighting types. It shows what Ash vs. Cameron should have been, but wasnt. I cant see any particular reason why Cameron would need to return, and I can think of better ways to give the poor unova-mons their glory back.

    Boldore's loss was still justified tho, PICSSB FTW
     
  14. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "What are yeh looking at. Gimme my booty back."

    Cameron was like Barry, except without the in-game history, being a battle whiz in a whole lot spur of ridiculous moments, and a better Dragon Master than Iris just because he randomly owns King Ghidora AKA the Pokemon that takes a whole lot longer to evolve.

    But yeah, I want that guy fall in a cliff before he even comes back. The writers will just over-glorify him and screw Ash's Snivy really badly.
     
  15. thor94

    thor94 Well-Known Member

    the rematch i want see after ash defeat is with harisson. with a big clash: mega charizard vs mega blaziken.

    Cameron is a pure joke. the only reason he win is because the writers were fully drugged when they come to this plot.
    sorry but send grass/steel against fire and water/fly against electric is the dumbest move ever shown in entire pokemon anime franchise.
    he only win by pure plot power, his battle was worse than tobias one by far. if you forget the two cameron stupidity action (not battle only running-gag moment), like tobias he powned ash team with only two pokemon (hydreigon and riolu/lucario).
     
  16. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Cameron's a great character. Why do people come on here just to rant about how much they dislike a character in such a defiant manner. Just because Cameron was using Pokémon with a type disadvantage on purpose doesn't make him an idiot. In his first battle against Cilan at the Straiton Gym Ash deliberately used Oshawott to fight Pansage even though Oshawott was untrained and had a major type disadvantage despite needing to win that battle. And Cameron did have effective strategies to deal with the type disadvantage. If fact the series is full of examples of various Pokémon winning despite type disadvantages so why shouldn't it work for Cameron too. Cameron managed to use Sammurott's razor shell in order to deflect Pikachu's electric attacks before she was taken down by iron tail. Swanna did manage to cause serious damage to Pikachu with wing attack which no doubt lead to Pikachu's eventual defeat to Lucario.

    All in all Cameron showed a lot of skill to be able to defeat Ash with only 5 Pokémon. I personally think the Tobias battle is worse because Darkrai and Latios are legendary Pokémon which made Tobias look like a Mary sue type character - He wasn't even well written as a character. He was one dimension and lacked any emotion. Also Ash recovered from Cameron's early lead quite well and for a moment during the Pikachu v Lucario battle it did look like Ash could have won. Cameron is nothing like Tobias. Tobias uses the same moves over and over to win and only wins because he is using legendary Pokémon. Cameron trained and raised Lucario and Hydreigon. Lucario evolved for Cameron so they could win the battle demonstrating their bond - which is the point of the show.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  17. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "What are yeh looking at. Gimme my booty back."

    Oh dear goodness, the amount of wrong in this post.

    General consensus says Cameron is just really a bad character all in all when you think hard about it. How on Earth can you be dumber but better than the main character? Hell, he could be a Dragon Master just for having that Hydreigon out of nowhere.

    Also. Thor94 made a really good counterargument. Tobias used just two Pokemon to KO all of Ash's Pokemon. It also took Cameron two Pokemon to destroy Ash just as much, but besides those two the battle was just...strange and just plain stupid. Let's not forget Ash decided to use a bunch of not fully-evolved Pokemon. Yeah, just face it: the writers are bound to make Cameron be blessed by the world through sheer Deux Ex Machina.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  18. BJack

    BJack Zura

    His Swanna and Ferrothorn got aniquilated, what are you talking about?
     
  19. Pikachu52

    Pikachu52 Well-Known Member

    Cameron wasn't dumb just incredibly forgetful and confused. He was similar to Ash. He wasn't a genius but he understood Pokémon well and was a decent battler. He didn't have Hydreigon out of nowhere. He had just simply raised it probably from Dieno to debut it during the league and give himself an edge. Drew did the same thing with Flygon in the Hoenn Grand Festival. And so what if Ash didn't use fully evolved Pokémon. The anime has made the point several times that being evolved does not equal strength or ability. Even most Gym leaders do not have fully evolved Pokémon. Bonding, friendship and trust are more important than evolution. Pikachu was able to take on Lt. Surge's Raichu without evolving. In any case the Pokémon Ash used in that battle were the main ones he had been using in Unova; Pikachu, Snivy, Oshawott, Pignite ect. They were the ones who were with Ash the most during the series, had the most character development and the ones whom the audience came to love the most so why shouldn't they be used for Ash's most important battles in the league.

    Raising Pokémon simply so they'll evolve has never been Ash's style. He's never forced or even encouraged a Pokémon to evolve. People seem to have this unnecessary fettish with evolution thinking it will make Ash stronger. It won't. In any case a lot of Snivy and Oshawott's personality and appeal rested on them being an Oshawott and a Snivy. Oshawott would have lost his carefree and fun loving personality if he had become Dewott, the discipline Pokémon and Snivy would have lost her elegance by evolving to Servine. Evolution should only be utilised where it enhances or is necessary for the plot and it does not need to happen to every Pokémon. Like with Cameron's Riolu. It evolved in battle to win the battle and did so to demonstrate the strength of the bond it had with Cameron - Riolu evolves from friendship. To have Snivy or Oshawott randomly evolve for no good reason would have been akin to killing those characters off.

    Swanna nearly beat Pikachu. If he had landed bubble beam and wing attack the second time it would have worked. No wonder Ash pulled Pikachu back after the battle with Swanna.

    Not necessarily. Riolu evolve from friendship and the pair were shown to be close throughout most of their time in the anime so it's not hard to see why that happened when it did. Prehaps the mistake with Cameron was introducing him too late. He should have been introduced earlier in the series, possibly in place of Stephan and appeared more frequently. This would have given an opportunity to explore Cameron and Riolu's backstory and their bond and demonstrate how it is as deep as Ash and Pikachu. If Ash's Pikachu were a Riolu and not a Pikachu then I image he would have evolved ages ago. I don't actually mind Cameron winning because of his Riolu evolving. It demonstrates the strong friendship between them and shows that Riolu wanted to show Ash and Pikachu that he and Cameron were as close as they were. Which is why I've said they should have come back to showcase mega evolution as a strong bond is required to mega evolve. The whole point of the anime as I've said before is about friendship, trust and love and the importance of forming a strong bond and gaining the trust of your Pokémon is consistently made throughout the anime (the only one who didn't make that point was Paul and that was sloppy writing and could not be said to amount to a repudiation of the friendship message). Cameron wasn't blessed by the world - He was blessed to have such a good friend in Lucario. And given that you only get out of a relationship what you put in (generally speaking) he earned it. Ash isn't the only one who can have a strong bond.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  20. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris "What are yeh looking at. Gimme my booty back."

    ...Which absolutely makes no sense. It would've already evolved before they even met Ash.

    Friendship evolution is perhaps a really massive wildcard. For example, for some reason, it took years for Korrina to evolve hers. Ash evolved his Swadloon pretty soon...and it didn't even get that much screen time.

    The mechanic is therefore ruled by Deux Ex Machina.

    And lastly, let's face it: a Cameron rematch would not even be good.
     

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