Who do you think has had the best character development?

[Blastmaster]

One thing I’m genuinely confused about is, what can you even criticize her about?
If you discuss her crush you get hit with that “it wasn’t her entire character you were watching a different show”
If you discuss her goal not to your liking “it doesn’t matter anyway since it was a catalyst to her development, you just don’t understand it”
And finally if you discuss her doing nothing for a complete year “she was figuring out what she wanted to peruse but of course you can’t understand excellent personal development”.

Like is she above criticism what

I'd like to add to this post, because I do also feel like Serena's fans tend to treat her as above criticism. I don't think they mean to (usually), but their rebuttals way too often just feel dismissive.

Logic like this is a pretty good example of what I mean:

None of these are actually necessary to develop her as person or as a performer and they are just your personal preferences on how you think they should've handled the character.

You realize that everything comes down to personal preference, right? This annoys me just as much as people who think their opinions are more "objective" than others. "I don't find these things necessary, and if you do then that's just what YOU wanted." That's... kind of the idea? If you're not satisfied with anything, it's because it lacks something you personally wanted. You're not more correct just because you don't personally care about everything that was left out of Serena's arc.

And ftr, the people who do want more aren't more correct either. But in Serena's case, there's just been too many instances of her fans going "That was the point! That wasn't the point!" and think that's all they ever need to really say. What if "the point" was a bad point?

I'm really not a fan of the "judge a character for who they are, not who they aren't" mindset. Even if challenging rivals/battles/better pacing/whatever aren't "necessary" (which is kinda debatable considering this is still Pokemon), would you not agree it'd be even better with those things? I could redirect that logic back to you and say "Well, you personally didn't want her to be a battler, so you're asking too little of the writers." It's not an argument. It's just one of those mentalities that boils down to "this is how I feel, and if you feel differently then shut up."

If you're satisfied with her screentime as it is, cool. If you want to argue why it's fine as it is, cool. But you can't keep writing people off with "you just don't understand" or "well, that's just what YOU wanted."

 

[Xuxuba]

You realize that everything comes down to personal preference, right? This annoys me just as much as people who think their opinions are more "objective" than others. "I don't find these things necessary, and if you do then that's just what YOU wanted." That's... kind of the idea? If you're not satisfied with anything, it's because it lacks something you personally wanted. You're not more correct just because you don't personally care about everything that was left out of Serena's arc


And ftr, the people who do want more aren't more correct either. But in Serena's case, there's just been too many instances of her fans going "That was the point! That wasn't the point!" and think that's all they ever need to really say. What if "the point" was a bad point?
.

Not everything. For example, saying Serena's entire character revolved around Ash when there were plenty of moments in the series where they focused on her goal and not on him contradicts what we actually saw in the series and, therefore, doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, no matter what i say it will be just twisted to "omg, Serena's fans just can't take criticism".

I'm really not a fan of the "judge a character for who they are, not who they aren't" mindset. Even if challenging rivals/battles/better pacing/whatever aren't "necessary" (which is kinda debatable considering this is still Pokemon), would you not agree it'd be even better with those things? I could redirect that logic back to you and say "Well, you personally didn't want her to be a battler, so you're asking too little of the writers." It's not an argument. It's just one of those mentalities that boils down to "this is how I feel, and if you feel differently then shut up."

So basically it would be constructive criticism if i judged Ash on his abilities as a performer (even though this was never his goal to begin with), just because i wanted him to become one. That is just ridiculous.

I don't like everything they did to Dawn's character. I wish they had picked another goal for her because i was tired of contests and i also wish she had more interactions with Brock. Does that mean it would make sense for me to start saying these things erased the development she received? No, because this has no correlation to her actual development.

If you're satisfied with her screentime as it is, cool. If you want to argue why it's fine as it is, cool. But you can't keep writing people off with "you just don't understand" or "well, that's just what YOU wanted."

You basically quoted only one little part of my post and took it out of context entirely. I explained very clearly the reasons why i thought your criticism wasn't really all that constructive and yet you reduced it to "oh you just don't understand".

 

[Power Up]

Lol, my problem with people who attempt to criticize Serena or anything else like " muh XY Ash is a robotic drone " is because they utterly fail at substantiating their points when asked to and stick with one-liner buzzwords and statements. No, that isn't good criticism, yes people like me are going to try to get you to actually give examples or maybe prove something of actual substance.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and your interpretation, but that's all it actually is, an interpretation and an opinion that may or not be actually based on reality within the show

It's funny that people in this thread are claiming they can't criticize Serena when they can't handle criticism of their terrible " points "

I'm mostly sick of the hyperbole, its become better, but it's a lot harder to take people seriously if they repeat the same one-liners verbatim for the past 6 years that have been time and time again disputed.

 

[Blastmaster]

Not everything. For example, saying Serena's entire character revolved around Ash when there were plenty of moments in the series where they focused on her goal and not on him contradicts what we actually saw in the series and, therefore, doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, no matter what i say it will be just twisted to "omg, Serena's fans just can't take criticism".

There has been a lot of hyperbole, I'll give you that. I'm not trying to be close-minded here; if I haven't said it already, I completely respect your opinion that Serena's character doesn't revolve around Ash. I think you're taking things too literally, though. Serena obviously doesn't spend every single moment fawning over Ash, but there is evidence to suggest she still revolves around him. She starts her journey because of Ash, gets most of her motivation from Ash, and just before she leaves states her goal is Ash. That's what some people "actually saw" in the series. But you keep acting your interpretation is the correct one, and that's why you tend to look dismissive.

So basically it would be constructive criticism if i judged Ash on his abilities as a performer (even though this was never his goal to begin with), just because i wanted him to become one. That is just ridiculous.

I don't like everything they did to Dawn's character. I wish they had picked another goal for her because i was tired of contests and i also wish she had more interactions with Brock. Does that mean it would make sense for me to start saying these things erased the development she received? No, because this has no correlation to her actual development.

Alright, I can see your point there. You don't care for Contests, but you can still respect the arc Dawn got from them. I guess the main difference here is that a lot of people don't care for Serena's arc OR her showcases. They'll find it rushed or whatever, and Showcases being (subjectively) super boring just make that issue worse. It's an uphill battle to care about character growth if it isn't used in an interesting way, which can ONLY be determined subjectively.

Also going off your examples, I think it's acceptable to have wanted more from some of Ash's journeys than just his Gym challenge. He can't just completely change his goal, but if you wanted him to do more than just battle it's perfectly valid. Maybe not performing exactly, but that's also because pursuing performing is just out of character for him. In Serena's case, it shouldn't be out of character for a Pokemon trainer to complete their battles.

It's also absolutely acceptable to say Dawn should've interacted more with Brock, in the same way Serena and Clemont should've interacted more. These characters are traveling an entire region together, they should have something to do with each other's lives.

You basically quoted only one little part of my post and took it out of context entirely. I explained very clearly the reasons why i thought your criticism wasn't really all that constructive and yet you reduced it to "oh you just don't understand".

Because I think most of your posts are driven by that logic. You're basically demanding everyone to just be satisfied and only interpret things in the way you agree with.

Lol, my problem with people who attempt to criticize Serena or anything else like " muh XY Ash is a robotic drone " is because they utterly fail at substantiating their points when asked to and stick with one-liner buzzwords and statements. No, that isn't good criticism, yes people like me are going to try to get you to actually give examples or maybe prove something of actual substance.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and your interpretation, but that's all it actually is, an interpretation and an opinion that may or not be actually based on reality within the show

It's funny that people in this thread are claiming they can't criticize Serena when they can't handle criticism of their terrible " points "

I'm mostly sick of the hyperbole, its become better, but it's a lot harder to take people seriously if they repeat the same one-liners verbatim for the past 6 years that have been time and time again disputed.

Once again, I could redirect that logic to you. "XY fans use buzzwords to make every little thing in that series seem ultra-deep. That isn't good praise." I think both sides are just tired of hearing the same praises/criticisms and neither side backing down.

And just like above, you're acting like your interpretation is more valid than mine. People on both sides can argue what "actually happened." All that does is prove it's up to interpretation.

I also think I have given examples in my posts, but idk if you're directly referring to me.

 

[Epicocity]

She starts her journey because of Ash, gets most of her motivation from Ash, and just before she leaves states her goal is Ash. That's what some people "actually saw" in the series. But you keep acting your interpretation is the correct one, and that's why you tend to look dismissive.

I just want to say, this is kind of what we're talking about, though. In an actual episode Serena explicitly states "I wanted to get away from Rhyhorn Racing". Nothing to do with Ash. He was very much the convenient excuse (and again, he invited her, not the other way around). But you claim that's what people "actually saw" even when it's more "actually ignored".

And let's not forget Clemont, Bonnie, Sawyer and Alain all got motivation from Ash in one way or another. Doesn't mean they all revolve around him.

Lastly...Miette says Aria is her and Serena's goal Does that mean they want something romantic with her, too?

Taking a reading is fine. Completely ignoring that there are clearly two readings is not.

And no, you can't criticize a character based on the intent of what you want them to be over what the writer intended for them to be. That's bad faith criticism.

 

[Power Up]

There has been a lot of hyperbole, I'll give you that. I'm not trying to be close-minded here; if I haven't said it already, I completely respect your opinion that Serena's character doesn't revolve around Ash. I think you're taking things too literally, though. Serena obviously doesn't spend every single moment fawning over Ash, but there is evidence to suggest she still revolves around him. She starts her journey because of Ash, gets most of her motivation from Ash, and just before she leaves states her goal is Ash. That's what some people "actually saw" in the series. But you keep acting your interpretation is the correct one, and that's why you tend to look dismissive.

Alright, I can see your point there. You don't care for Contests, but you can still respect the arc Dawn got from them. I guess the main difference here is that a lot of people don't care for Serena's arc OR her showcases. They'll find it rushed or whatever, and Showcases being (subjectively) super boring just make that issue worse. It's an uphill battle to care about character growth if it isn't used in an interesting way, which can ONLY be determined subjectively.

Also going off your examples, I think it's acceptable to have wanted more from some of Ash's journeys than just his Gym challenge. He can't just completely change his goal, but if you wanted him to do more than just battle it's perfectly valid. Maybe not performing exactly, but that's also because pursuing performing is just out of character for him. In Serena's case, it shouldn't be out of character for a Pokemon trainer to complete their battles.

It's also absolutely acceptable to say Dawn should've interacted more with Brock, in the same way Serena and Clemont should've interacted more. These characters are traveling an entire region together, they should have something to do with each other's lives.

Because I think most of your posts are driven by that logic. You're basically demanding everyone to just be satisfied and only interpret things in the way you agree with.

Once again, I could redirect that logic to you. "XY fans use buzzwords to make every little thing in that series seem ultra-deep. That isn't good praise." I think both sides are just tired of hearing the same praises/criticisms and neither side backing down.

And just like above, you're acting like your interpretation is more valid than mine. People on both sides can argue what "actually happened." All that does is prove it's up to interpretation.

I also think I have given examples in my posts, but idk if you're directly referring to me.

I have a lot more respect for people who are able to back up their claims and give actual validity to their opinions. This is a forum for discourse and discussion, yes, once again, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean your opinion can't be wrong, can't be a misunderstanding or misrepresentation, or not even actually based on the actual circumstances going on in the show. One-liners and buzzwords have their place, they start up the conversation, but after the fact if said one-liner is repeatedly used, without the kind of justification and substance being asked of, then yeah, that's all the one-liner is. An opinion and a conversation starter. It becomes stale, weak, and ultimately something I look at being pointless and " here we go again "

Justifiable praise to me is a hell lot more interesting than vapid criticism, which is what most criticism of Serena amounts to. It's shallow and repetitive, lacking any form of nuance or substance for that matter

An interpretation can easily be more proved to be more valid and opinions can easily be proven to be more or less right than the other depending on if the interpretation once again is actually based on what the show has actually and what it has actually showed. The interpretation, that AmourShipping for example, was more part of Serena's character than her goal was, isn't actually based on what the show showed.

It is more valid to me at least, especially when I know I can back it up. People just arguing about their different interpretations without the kind of substantiating needed to understand how their interpretation actually came to be, I can agree with.

I wasn't specifically referencing you no

 

[Dragalge]

I don’t think Serena’s character revolves around shipping obviously but I can understand why there’s a perception of it to a certain degree lol. Idk what that is exactly but still!

Me? I could care less about Amour and actually wish they never did it for the sake of the writers not being bombarded with toxic hate when something doesn’t go a person’s way + making her polarizing. Serena just didn’t click with me is all even if there were moments that were significant in her writing.

Now one thing I do have to say and don’t take this the wrong way but: Next time Serena if you’re going to cut your hair, do it in a building! Don’t pollute the area with your cut hair you lunkhead people and Pokemon traverse on it!

 

[Blastmaster]

I just want to say, this is kind of what we're talking about, though. In an actual episode Serena explicitly states "I wanted to get away from Rhyhorn Racing". Nothing to do with Ash. He was very much the convenient excuse (and again, he invited her, not the other way around). But you claim that's what people "actually saw" even when it's more "actually ignored".

And let's not forget Clemont, Bonnie, Sawyer and Alain all got motivation from Ash in one way or another. Doesn't mean they all revolve around him.

I don't think that was actually the case, though. Presumably, Serena had been practicing Rhyhorn racing for years despite hating it. If she cared that much about getting away from it, she would've done it the second she turned 10, not the day she saw her crush on TV.

There are definitely things her detractors emphasize, but I don't think they're necessarily ignoring everything else. It's just that some things stand out for one reason or another. You gotta admit, it's hard not to notice AmourShipping when it's the first main girl to have a serious crush on Ash. Not to mention the crazy shiptease titles like "Ash and Serena's First Date" and "Serena and Ash at the Dance Party."

Lastly...Miette says Aria is her and Serena's goal Does that mean they want something romantic with her, too?

Taking a reading is fine. Completely ignoring that there are clearly two readings is not.

I don't remember that quote, admittedly. Even so, there's a difference in that Aria is directly related to their careers, while Ash isn't.

And don't get me wrong, I agree. I think both sides should respect that there are multiple readings, but I'm still sticking to the one that I personally got.

And no, you can't criticize a character based on the intent of what you want them to be over what the writer intended for them to be. That's bad faith criticism.

I disagree. The BW writers intended for Ash to be an idiot (or at least a rookie). I think it's fair to say that was a mistake.

 

[AznKei]

Me? I could care less about Amour and actually wish they never did it for the sake of the writers not being bombarded with toxic hate when something doesn’t go a person’s way + making her polarizing. Serena just didn’t click with me is all even if there were moments that were significant in her writing.

What do you think of the show nowadays, outside of XY & Serena? Because people were praising DP & Dawn alot, and that the recent series couldn't match these anymore.

I don't think that was actually the case, though. Presumably, Serena had been practicing Rhyhorn racing for years despite hating it. If she cared that much about getting away from it, she would've done it the second she turned 10, not the day she saw her crush on TV.

I find her pretty isolated when she started to join the cast though, so she probably wasn't aware that people at 10 goes on a journey, judging on how she was unfamiliar with the Pokemon Showcases, and her intitial unease at sleeping outside.

 

[Power Up]

I don't think that was actually the case, though. Presumably, Serena had been practicing Rhyhorn racing for years despite hating it. If she cared that much about getting away from it, she would've done it the second she turned 10, not the day she saw her crush on TV.

There are definitely things her detractors emphasize, but I don't think they're necessarily ignoring everything else. It's just that some things stand out for one reason or another. You gotta admit, it's hard not to notice AmourShipping when it's the first main girl to have a serious crush on Ash. Not to mention the crazy shiptease titles like "Ash and Serena's First Date" and "Serena and Ash at the Dance Party."

I don't remember that quote, admittedly. Even so, there's a difference in that Aria is directly related to their careers, while Ash isn't.

And don't get me wrong, I agree. I think both sides should respect that there are multiple readings, but I'm still sticking to the one that I personally got.

I disagree. The BW writers intended for Ash to be an idiot (or at least a rookie). I think it's fair to say that was a mistake.

Yeah, but these are perceptions CREATED by the people watching because of the it being something entirely unique and in doing so become incapable of actually looking at reality. There's an interview somewhere talking about they had shipping has an aspect of Serena's character and you've got people watching the show with perceptions based on the idea of the ship being a new thing entirely without looking at the nuance

 

[Xuxuba]

There has been a lot of hyperbole, I'll give you that. I'm not trying to be close-minded here; if I haven't said it already, I completely respect your opinion that Serena's character doesn't revolve around Ash. I think you're taking things too literally, though. Serena obviously doesn't spend every single moment fawning over Ash, but there is evidence to suggest she still revolves around him. She starts her journey because of Ash, gets most of her motivation from Ash, and just before she leaves states her goal is Ash. That's what some people "actually saw" in the series. But you keep acting your interpretation is the correct one, and that's why you tend to look dismissive.

I am glad you admit the over-exaggeration.

You can dislike how Serena was developed, that is personal and subjective. But saying something happened in the show when it didn't, that is not a subjective statement and it is not a valid criticism.

Serena stated very explicitly the reason why she got away from home in the episode where she tells her mother that she doesn't want to become a Rhyhorn racer. She said she started her pokémon journey because she was tired of her training. Her very first scene in the show wasn't about her fawning over Ash, it was her being forcibly awaken by her mother to try mounting Rhyhorn, then falling very hard in the ground and being annoyed at her mother for forcing her to do that. When she saw Ash and remembered about the handkerchief that she had to return to him, that was her excuse to get out of an unhappy situation. She wasn't even going to him with the intention of staying with him, he was the one who asked her to travel with him in the first place.

You might not like how that was done, but it doesn't change the fact that her arc didn't start with Ash and that her reasoning was stated in the show and, canonically speaking, it wasn't Ash.

Alright, I can see your point there. You don't care for Contests, but you can still respect the arc Dawn got from them. I guess the main difference here is that a lot of people don't care for Serena's arc OR her showcases. They'll find it rushed or whatever, and Showcases being (subjectively) super boring just make that issue worse. It's an uphill battle to care about character growth if it isn't used in an interesting way, which can ONLY be determined subjectively.

Also going off your examples, I think it's acceptable to have wanted more from some of Ash's journeys than just his Gym challenge. He can't just completely change his goal, but if you wanted him to do more than just battle it's perfectly valid. Maybe not performing exactly, but that's also because pursuing performing is just out of character for him. In Serena's case, it shouldn't be out of character for a Pokemon trainer to complete their battles.

It's also absolutely acceptable to say Dawn should've interacted more with Brock, in the same way Serena and Clemont should've interacted more. These characters are traveling an entire region together, they should have something to do with each other's lives.

It is absolutely acceptable to complain about things you didn't like about a character.

What is unreasonable is to act like things you didn't like about a character equates to that character having no development.

I disagree. The BW writers intended for Ash to be an idiot (or at least a rookie). I think it's fair to say that was a mistake.

Except Ash suddenly becoming a rookie again contradicts what he experencied in the past. It goes against the continuity and his character growth.

Meanwhile, Serena not becoming a battler and Ash not doing performances does not contradict anything and it isn't out of character.

 

[Genaller]

Serena had the best long term character growth of any companion in the entire anime.

She started out as a naive, infatuated girl who set out on her journey as a means of escapism to gradually becoming an independent young woman with a clear goal in mind (making people smile with her showcases) separate from the person she’s interested in, and at the same time her love for that person grew into something far more sincere after spending all of that time with him and becoming aware of his flaws (it’s no longer blind infatuation at this point).

Also yeah ‘you are my goal’ is objectively meant to be ambiguous and have multiple meanings, and this is supported by the inherently more ambiguous nature of the Japanese language along with the context of Serena’s words surrounding this line. This notion that all opinions are created equal is a fallacy; an opinion that is better substantiated with valid evidence and reasoning is superior to 1 that isn’t or is backed up by faulty evidence and/or reasoning. One would also need to have a fair degree of confirmation bias to blatantly dismiss that none of the major amour moments were in Serena’s flashback montage whilst all of them were in Ash’s flashback montage (an indication of Serena’s independence from Ash and also a sign that Ash is aware of Serena feelings and a possible hint that he even reciprocates).

 

[maartjeverhoef]

Also yeah ‘you are my goal’ is objectively meant to be ambiguous and have multiple meanings

If it's meant to be ambiguous and have multiple meanigs then every interpretation of it is valid I guess. Had they worded it differently, the inrerpretation of Ash being the drive for Serena's development would not be as valid, but they didn't.

 

[Genaller]

If it's meant to be ambiguous and have multiple meanigs then every interpretation of it is valid I guess. Had they worded it differently, the inrerpretation of Ash being the drive for Serena's development would not be as valid, but they didn't.

Sure meaning that the interpretation of her wanting to pursue Ash at some point in the future along with the interpretation of her wanting to be a better person more along the lines of Ash can both be true without there being any inconsistency. Regardless this ‘goal’ of hers is not mutually exclusive with her other goal of being a performer who can make people smile and her actions of leaving Ash to go to Hoenn clearly indicate that it’s the latter goal that she’s currently prioritizing. What’s faulty in some people’s reasoning here is that this statement of Serena’s somehow undoes all the development that she had leading up to her finding her performance related goal when it most certainly doesn’t since... believe it or not... you can have multiple goals!

 

[Xuxuba]

. What’s faulty in some people’s reasoning here is that this statement of Serena’s somehow undoes all the development that she had leading up to her finding her performance related goal when it most certainly doesn’t since... believe it or not... you can have multiple goals!

This is incredibly funny to me because i bet some of these people have multiple goals in life, like getting an education, starting a successful career, getting a love life, making their parents proud, maybe starting a family...

And yet somehow it's difficult for them to understand that Serena wants more than just one thing life, even though that is something they do almost every single day lol

 

[mehmeh1]

Serena had the best long term character growth of any companion in the entire anime.

She started out as a naive, infatuated girl who set out on her journey as a means of escapism to gradually becoming an independent young woman with a clear goal in mind (making people smile with her showcases) separate from the person she’s interested in, and at the same time her love for that person grew into something far more sincere after spending all of that time with him and becoming aware of his flaws (it’s no longer blind infatuation at this point).

Also yeah ‘you are my goal’ is objectively meant to be ambiguous and have multiple meanings, and this is supported by the inherently more ambiguous nature of the Japanese language along with the context of Serena’s words surrounding this line. This notion that all opinions are created equal is a fallacy; an opinion that is better substantiated with valid evidence and reasoning is superior to 1 that isn’t or is backed up by faulty evidence and/or reasoning. One would also need to have a fair degree of confirmation bias to blatantly dismiss that none of the major amour moments were in Serena’s flashback montage whilst all of them were in Ash’s flashback montage (an indication of Serena’s independence from Ash and also a sign that Ash is aware of Serena feelings and a possible hint that he even reciprocates).

Then again, the pokeball factory was also in Ash's flashback montage, I agree about Serena, but that part in Ash's montage has always felt off

 

[Genaller]

Then again, the pokeball factory was also in Ash's flashback montage, I agree about Serena, but that part in Ash's montage has always felt off

Pikachu had a traumatic near pokéball imprisonment experience during that ep, and Pikachu is Ash’s bff, so maybe that’s why Ash was remembering it lol.

On a serious note not every memory scene has to have notable significance.

 

[AznKei]

This is incredibly funny to me because i bet some of these people have multiple goals in life, like getting an education, starting a successful career, getting a love life, making their parents proud, maybe starting a family...

And yet somehow it's difficult for them to understand that Serena wants more than just one thing life, even though that is something they do almost every single day lol

Yeah, but this is a show we're talking about so we want to see things happening in a very fast paced way compared irl, especially she got only 1 full series to shine and we didn't get to see a special episode (or more) in which could give her more potential to grow further thanks for being away of her Kalos companions.

 

[Xuxuba]

Yeah, but this is a show we're talking about so we want to see things happening in a very fast paced way compared irl, especially she got only 1 full series to shine and we didn't get to see a special in which could give her more potential to grow further thanks for being away of her Kalos companions.

What did you expect though? For her to be married with Ash and have three kids by the end of the saga?

Her having the courage to confess her feelings is already a huge progress for someone who couldn't get even three inches near him without going full tomato. Let alone in the way that she did it, in front of all her friends and a bunch of strangers. That requires a lot of confidence.

Either way, we are going off topic here. The main point is that it's entirely possible for her to have more than one goal at the same time without erasing her previous development.

 

[AznKei]

What did you expect though? For her to be married with Ash and have three kids by the end of the saga?

Ugh, no way! Screw Ash! I rather see her to be with other experienced people than him.

Meh, I don't deny that she got development during the series along for having multiple goals in her life, but I still found the writers handled her overall during the series was mediocre, thanks for priotizing on Ash way too hard nowadays.

Anyways, I'll stop this rant. I agree it's getting off topic.