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Who do you think should be a part of Masters 8 next series in case it is still a part of it?

pickapika

Well-Known Member
No you said he wasn't more skilled than Ash,those were your exact words in the thread that I created and then deleted about a year ago.

The only areas he was lacking in was suprise and bonding which I admitted that Ash was better in.Paul is just as good if not better in every other category.
I said he wasn't more skilled as a trainer as Ash is demonstrably better at making his pokemon more powerful. Ash's training is more effective than Paul's which is why he's able to take weaker pokemon and train them to be as strong or stronger than the strong pokemon Paul catches.

Paul is a more skilled battler, but just like it doesn't matter against brandon or cynthia, it ends up not mattering in his battle vs ash because ash's mons are too strong.
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
It's only more effective when counting the fact that he's better at bonding with his pokemon than Paul,imagine if he trained his pokemon the same way he did throughout all the regions but minus the love and bonding,Paul trains his pokemon a lot more and is stricter.Ash was NOT responsible for Charizard,Snorlax and Squirtle's power.In just 1 region Paul managed to turn Elekid and Ursaring into absolute juggerntauts plus the addition of Drapion later on.He got these results without relying on bonding with his pokemon.
That's fine. If you want to argue that a hypothetical paul with ash's bonding would be stronger, go ahead. But the real Paul was not. Staraptor was specifically singled out by Paul as a weakling and half-way through DP is no-selling a half-dozen of honckrow's attacks. Give staraptor and honchkrow equally skilled battlers and staraptor ko's him. Gliscor is a mobility build who tanked multiple attacks from ninjask, multiple attacks from drapion, and an attack from electravire and was able to ko a drapion who'd taken four hits before hand with 2 moves.

Ursaring was already strong when he was first caught and he still ends up getting fodderized by Monfero.

Electravire is matched by a massively weakened pikachu before amplification and then is outright overpowered by a massively weakned infernape. Even a extremey weakened pre-blaze infernape was able to match an amplified electrovire in power. Again, give pikachu or infernape or even gliscor an equally skilled battler and electravire probably goes down much sooner.
You say Ash is better at training more effective than Paul by taking weaker pokemon and making them stronger but you gotta remember that Paul's starter is Torterra,so that means it wasn't caught in the wild with the idea of capturing the strongest he could find,he raised it all the way from a Turtwig from scratch and it developed into Torterra whose power is comparable to Ash's Charizard.
Based on what is torterra's power "comparable to ash's charizard" From what we actually see in battle, torterra is relative to both pre-special training gliscor and mid-dp staraptor, and it's one-shotted by a brickbreak(not a move that is supposed to be able to one-shot mons) from Cynthia's Garchomp.

The logical comparison for torterra, who was trained over the course of various regional campaigns, is pikachu. Given how pikachu, a mobility build, ends up being a better tank in their final fight than all the pokemon Paul chooses and matches Paul's electravire while heavily weakened, I don't think there's a strong case to be made for torterra vs pikachu. If Torterra was really pikachu's peer, you would expect it to no-sell attacks from the likes of gliscor and staraptor, and to not get insta-ko'd by a brickbreaker when it's supposed to be a tank build.
Why are Brandon and Cynthia always the go to when talking about Paul as a trainer?
Because they show us how Paul looks facing a team of top tier pokemon without prior knowledge or prep. Paul is always going to look uniquely strong against Ash because Paul has extensive history with ash and can predict his moves and strategies as a result.
Ash,Gary and all the other league rivals he faced all lose in the same fashion.By trying to treat Paul as "fodder" he's always compared to the top echelon of trainers in the world instead of comparing him to other trainers in his own class.Right now you're using the same examples that all the Paul haters use to downplay him as a trainer.
Who would you like us to compare him to then? Barry? Conway? Nando?

What trainers "in his class" do we stack him up with? His rivals?

Gary? Gary takes ash to his last pokemon facing his reserves having had equal time and oppurtunity to train his mons. Gary doesn't require any sort of pre-planned strategy, doesn't predict what ash's mons are or what they will do, and can still match them directly blow for blow

Alain? Outright beats ash without prep or familiarity in a similar setting except this time he's facing a stronger pikachu. This ash is faaaar more competent. He doesn't try **** like volt-tackling Paul's electravire, he doesn't constantly put his pokemon in compromising positions, and he's actually capable of taking care of/preparing issues preemptively as opposed to solving them after they've caused problems for him(cough drapion cough).

Infernape was on the ground and the ref was about to declare it unable to battle,Electivire was still standing after clashing with Infernape's Flare Blitz before eventually fainting.
Okay, but how did we get there? Was it because Electravire overpowered infernape's flame thrower or dealt more damage with his brick breaker than infernape did with his mach punch? Electravire comes in far fresher while amplified by a poorly thought-out volt tackle, is outright matched by a infernape that's been poisoned and giga-drained, and then blasts him for several seconds with an attack that opponents are typically only exposed to with a second or two of charge Electravire isn't pushing infernape because its comparably strong, it's pushing infernape, in spite of being much weaker, because Paul baits Ash into a trap where infernape gets blasted by thunder for several seconds, and Ash has amplified electravire with a volt tackle.

Don't just look at the outcome. Look at the fights and what is specifcally happening in them.

Drapion doesn't beat Torterra in a clash of power, it beats torterra by successfully launching several attacks on torterra while torterra only manages to land one. Drapion doesn't beat staraptor because staraptor isn't strong enough, but because Paul successfully manuevers Starpator, a pokemon who isn't supposed to be a tank, to take four power attacks while effectively nuetralizing it's mobility as a factor. None of Paul's knockouts in their final sinnoh battle are a result of Paul's pokemon being too strong except for when an amplified electravire is able to overpower a weakened pikachu. Given an equally skilled battler, all of Ash's sinnoh mons probably are at least competitive with any of Paul's mons despite only having a region worth of training, many of them specfically being singled out as weaklings, and Paul specfically restricting himself to catching mons who are already uniquely strong.

That doesn't really work if Paul is as effective at powering up mons as Ash is.
Also Paul did not use all of his strongest pokemon but for whatever hell reason
My whatever the hell reason is that Paul explicitly emphasizes before the fight that the only thing that matters to him is beating Ash, he's able to fully predict what mons ash will use as well as what moves/counters said mons would use and it would be comically ooc for him to not be using the team he thinks would give him the best chance of winning. If Torterra was far stronger than his other mons, then leaving him out in an all important battle is nonsensical.

Moreover we have seen torterra in mutiple fights, and at no point is he potrayed as being way stronger than Paul's other pokemons. At no point is he potrayed as being far stronger than ash's rookie sinnoh mons.

Your assumption that torterra is some sort of trump card/team buster isn't supported by anything. And if torterra really was that good, then Paul not using him is completely ooc.
 

MetaMantis

Offline until Ash vs Leon
Next Masters Tournament will feature Ash having a 6v6 battle against the Samurai from episode 4. He now has a team of:

Armaldo
Scolipede
Volcarona
Vikavolt
Beedrill
Mega Scizor

The Samurai should have come back for the Indigo League.
 

Ishiftyounot

The Meme Supreme
Ash (Alola Champion)
Leon (Galar Champion)
Cynthia (Sinnoh Champion)
Diantha (Kalos Champion)
Karen / Will (Johto Elite 4)
Geeta / Nemona (Paldea Champion / Rival)
Benga / Grimsley (Alder's grandson / Unova Elite 4)
Mustard (Former Galar Champion)

Ash and the rest of the top 4 of the current Master's 8, some Johto representation who never appeared in the anime, the new Paldea characters most likely to be capable of reaching this stage of the tournament, a Unova rep who also hasn't appeared in the series, and Mustard (seriously we should've had an Isle of Armor training arc in Journeys, would've been awesome pre-Darkest Day with Riolu/Farfetch'd).
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
It's because you don't take into the account that Paul could've been saving Torterra for Tobias after he were to defeat Ash or the writers left it out on purpose to keep Paul from winning.
Pikachu tanked a absurd amount of damage in fights against three of Paul's pokemon and then went and fought latios in the semis. We saw two of Paul's fights and neither of them involved torterra. The fights which we didn't see were easy sweep. If Torterra was a team-busting ace, than Paul would use him accordingly, this isn't hard. You know who Paul does actually make extensive use of? Electravire. It's almost like Paul thinks Electravire is more important for his prospects of winning...

Additionally, Torterra's absence isn't considered notable by anyone in-universe and as we've covered in his actual fights he's never potrayed as uniquely powerful relative to ash's rookies or paul's other mons. If Torterra was a team-busting ace, then it should have showed up in one of his fights, and his absence should have been noticed by one of the many characters we see commenting on ash vs paul.

"Torterra is the most experienced" isn't suffecient proof. We've seen "more experienced" mons get surpassed by less experienced mons routinely. Ash's Charizard is very experienced yet infernape beats it. Your assumptions make for very weak evidence and to be clear the burden of proof is entirely on you.

Copium aside, it's pretty obvious no one in the pokemon universe, including Paul, thinks Torterra is an uber powerful trump card. Your head-canon doesn't matter.
Do you not realize that Torterra has weaknesses due to it's size and frame?This is the reason why it always had finishing moves (Frenzy Plant)(Hyper Beam) and then a crutch move (Giga Drain) so Paul had to use Torterra differently and I'd say it worked out well for him,can't say the same for Ash's Torterra.
Torterra's weakness is that he can be outmanuvered. That has no relevance to his ability to tank or distribute damage with his attacks, which should be a strength. When he faces powerhouses he is one-shot, when he faces rookies he struggles, and in important fights, he isn't chosen. No ace in the mythos is potrayed this way, yet Torterra is. Take a guess why.
Honchkrow or Magmortar who you still failed to explain how they're "weaker" than Aggron
I'm sorry, you wouldn't be talking about the honchkrow who saw 6 of their attacks no-selled by staravia/staraptor(presumably not even peaking yet)? Honchkrow highlights why your argument for torterra sucks. staravia is a newly caught pokemon specfically singd out by paul as a weakling and despite a massive experience gap is already stronger than a top 5 Paul mon(according to that list you keep copy and pasting as if it's some sort of legal document) within less than half a season.
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
Paul using Electivire more often doesn't necessarily mean it's stronger than Torterra
Actually that's exactly what it means. I would have thought Paul's #1 fan would have basic awareness of Paul as a character. Paul's entire focus is winning the sinnoh league. If the didn't think electravire wasn't his best shot, he wouldn't be using it more than everyone else, including the actual sinnoh league.

And this is now the second straight post you've avoided this:

I'm sorry, you wouldn't be talking about the honchkrow who saw 6 of their attacks no-selled by staravia/staraptor(presumably not even peaking yet)? Honchkrow highlights why your argument for torterra sucks. staravia is a newly caught pokemon specfically singd out by paul as a weakling and despite a massive experience gap is already stronger than a top 5 Paul mon(according to that list you keep copy and pasting as if it's some sort of legal document) within less than half a season.
Oh look, it's honchkrow, a mon who(using your logic), should be really strong because of his "experience"... can't do **** vs ash's less experienced staraptor

Gee, it's almost like your "logic" doesn't actually prove anything
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
Adding Torterra to his team would mean he'd have that on top of Drapion and Electivire which makes his team significantly stronger than it originally was.
So you claim on the basis of logic debunked here:
I'm sorry, you wouldn't be talking about the honchkrow who saw 6 of their attacks no-selled by staravia/staraptor(presumably not even peaking yet)? Honchkrow highlights why your argument for torterra sucks. staravia is a newly caught pokemon specfically singd out by paul as a weakling and despite a massive experience gap is already stronger than a top 5 Paul mon(according to that list you keep copy and pasting as if it's some sort of legal document) within less than half a season.
Third time now you've avoided this. Wonder why.
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
No I'm not avoiding sh*t,you're using the weak a** pokeringer
I'm sorry, did the weak ass pokeringer tournament magically depower honchkrow's attacks vs staraptor/staravia?
You failed to mention all of Honchkrow's other showings in battle.
And which one of these "other showings" retcons honchkrow not being able to do anything to maybe the weakest of Ash's sinnoh pokemon(by the end of the series) with a bunch of free hits?
 

pickapika

Well-Known Member
No it's not an actual pokemon battle it's a pokeringer contest,so the main objective is to get ahold of the ring not KO the opponent's pokemon.
KO'ing the opponent's pokemon ensures one can get the ring and keep it. Moreover, Paul's goal wasn't to win the poke-ringer, but to make his pokemon stronger via battling. Thus Paul had honchy try to ko staraptor. Unforunately for Paul, it was too weak to.
But you failed to give me legit reasons as to why and how Froslass,Gastrodon and Ninjask are stronger than Honchkrow,Ursaring,Torterra and Magmortar.
I don't need to. My argument doesn't hinge on x pokemon being far more powerful than y pokemon. Yours does. The burden of proof is yours, and thus far,, you've failed to produce evidence even for your alleged #1 let alone honchy.

Nor have you been able to rebut any of my counter-evidence regarding torterra and honchkrow, your alleged #1 and #5.

Save the link-spam for after you've made a coherent point.
 
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