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Who is Ash’s 8th strongest Pokémon?

Discussion in 'Animé Polls' started by Genaller, Jun 29, 2018.

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Who is Ash’s strongest Pokémon barring GPICKSS?

  1. Bulbasaur

    66.7%
  2. Heracross

    4.8%
  3. Gible

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Torkoal

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Swellow

    19.0%
  6. Gliscor

    4.8%
  7. Squirtle

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Hawlucha

    4.8%
  9. Glalie

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Kingler

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    So a while ago we had a poll regarding who’s Ash’s 7th strongest Pokémon and Krookodile won that poll convincingly. With that in mind is there a definitive PAD consensus for who is Ash’s #8 (pre-SM)?

    My vote goes to Bulbasaur due to the Brandon feat where he did over half the work on a Pokémon who was able to go toe to toe with BF Charizard even prior to the Seismic Toss blunder and in addition to that Bulbasaur traded even with another of Brandon’s Pokémon that was at full health in the same match. Bulbasaur also had a great showing against Jackson at the Johto League though that feat on its own wouldn’t put Bulbasaur above the other contenders. Other Pokémon with a good case include Heracross (Nando and Tobias feats), Gible (Conway and Tobias feats), Torkoal (Brandon feat), Swellow (Katie and Tyson feats) and Gliscor (SL Paul feat). Squirtle also has good feats in the JL and BF though I think most would accept that they’re inferior to Bulbasaur’s. Hawlucha did beat a Mega Pokemon, so there’s that (if only they showed the full fight :(). Kingler and Glalie also deserve mention since they were portrayed as strong with what limited screen time they had though the shaft treatment they got makes it unlikely that they’re in Ash’s TOP 10. Let me know if you think any of Ash’s other Pokémon have a case for the #8 slot. Also let me know if need elaboration on any of the feats I mentioned above.
     
  2. mehmeh1

    mehmeh1 Well-Known Member

    the thing with hawlucha's feat is that we don't even know if it beat absol in its own or if it was just cleaning up, anyways, yeah, bulbasaur, gliscor, or heracross for me
     
  3. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    So anyone have any reservation with Bulbasaur being Ash’s #8?
     
  4. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Janice beat up Sam Peterson

    yeah, he should be #7 with krookodile as #8. Krookodile barely beat Iris's Dragonite. Am I supposed to think the Dragonite who lost to a gym leader is stronger than Bulbasaur who beat two Frontier Brain pokemon in a row? Also In the Unova League I don't think Krookodile had any feats that Bulbasaur isn't capable of.

    edit also bulbasaur has more experience, just adding that in too
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    Ash-Pikachu and Genaller like this.
  5. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    Dragonite scales from Dawn’s Mamoswine who was decisively stronger than Piplup who was able to beat Chimchar (prior to Ash’s training). Dragonite was able to block and/or no-sell all of Mamoswine’s attacks (including the quad-effective ones) except for its final Take Down and OHKs it with the first move it uses in what honestly seemed like over Kill indicating that Dragonite could have literally ended the battle whenever it wanted. Krookodile was able to beat this same Dragonite and while it’s true that Dragonite was throwing a tantrum that wasted some stamina and allowed Krookodile to get an extra hit in, it is worth noting that Krookodile won fairly convincingly indicating it most likely would’ve won (albeit in a much closer match) even if Dragonite wasn’t handicapped.

    Regarding Drayden; first off there should be no issue if we assume that he was a top regional gym leader like Volkner and Wulfric not to mention that Dragonite also handicapped itself in that fight by not taking the aerial advantage.

    Of course the real reason why Krookodile can’t be ranked below 7 (as of XYZ) is because the writers acknowledged that it was in the same “club” as the likes of Sceptile, Infernape, Charizard and Ash-Greninja and in a show like Pokémon where cross-region power scaling can get pretty convoluted at times, an acknowledgement like this is golden. If Ash were to select a team of his best 6 Pokémon as of XYZ, it’s most likely that Krookodile and not Snorlax would be on that team. Now for Snorlax there is precedent in the sense that Snorlax has previously been unable to partake in a major battle due to being in deep sleep (Orange League Championship match), so the writers can always do that for the sake of “region diversity”. For Bulbasaur on the other hand he has always answered the call whenever Ash needed him for battle, so there isn’t an equivalent precedent for him which would then mean that Krookodile would be chosen over Bulbasaur because it was the better choice; plain and simple.
     
  6. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Janice beat up Sam Peterson

    also given Bulbasaur outperforming and overshadowing Charizard in the Brandon battle, I think it's fair to conclude that Bulbasaur is at least very close to Charizard's level even if he's not quite there. there seems to be a much larger power gap between Charizard and Dragonite judging by their battle in BW where Charizard was owning Dragonite, despite Dragonite's type advantage and Charizard's downgraded moveset

    Being decisively stronger than an unevolved contest pokemon with a meaningless feat (Paul did a terrible job bringing out Chimchar's potential) doesn't mean all that much to me. Mamoswine is just okay, not anything to write home about.

    I'm going by what we saw in the show though, not what was told. Sure maybe Krookodile was meant to be in the same tier, but they should have done a better job of showing that because Snorlax and Bulbasaur both look like better pokemon.
     
  7. PokemonBattleFanatic-

    PokemonBattleFanatic- Paul/Shinji Fan

    7.Swellow
    8.Krookodile
    9.Bulbasaur
    10.Heracross
    11.Kingler
    12.Gliscor
    13.Glalie
    14.Torkoal
    15.Gible
    16.Squirtle
     
  8. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    Actually it isn’t. Ash’s Seismic Toss blunder resulted in a vulnerable Charizard taking a critical hit from Shadow Punch which is why Zard fell while Dusclops still had over half its health left. Without that blunder the match would’ve been far closer (hard to say who would’ve won). Dusclops also had notable stamina drain (was visibly panting during its fight with Zard) which decreases a Pokémon’s battle viability, so technically speaking the Dusclops Bulbasaur faced was weaker than the Dusclops Charizard faced. With that in mind it’s still impressive that Bulbasaur dealt over half the damage in taking out Dusclops and went on to tie with another Pokémon, but I wouldn’t say Bulbasaur was close to Charizard’s lvl at the time (at most he would be competitive with Pokémon of Charizard’s lvl). Regardless the Charizard who dominated Dragonite in BW is decisively stronger than BF Zard due to having 2 additional regions of CV training and Bulbasaur most certainly isn’t close to that Zard’s lvl.

    Yeah you should see Mamoswine’s evolution episode; it literally no-sells Piplup’s attacks and treats him like fodder. While Paul did much worse at raising Chimchar than Ash did, Chimchar under Paul was no push over doing well against Roark as well as in the Heart-Home tag battle tournament.


    On pure feats I have Krookodile, Bulbasaur and Heracross rated at A while Snorlax is above all of them at A+. If it were purely on on-screen feats then I’d have Bulbasaur at #7 and Krookodile at #8, but due to writer acknowledgement + them being very close to each other as it is I’m giving Krookodile the benefit of doubt. In truth when I give multiple Pokémon the same rating it means that I’m not sure in what order, so I don’t really have any issue with people putting Bulbasaur (or even Heracross) over Krookodile.

    Maybe I should rephrase the question that started this: Does anyone have an issue with Bulbasaur being at least Ash’s 8th best Pokémon?
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  9. Denko Sekka

    Denko Sekka Well-Known Member

    I don't even agree with the seven others, but I'll go with Bulbasaur since he's got tenure. I just think he needed to evolve in Kanto.
     
  10. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    Okay I’m curious; what do you mean by “I don’t even agree with the the seven others”?
     
  11. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Krookodile was never that powerful to begin with IMO. He barely defeated Stephan's Liepard and quite frankly, Stephan's pokemon other than Sawk weren't that impimpress considering Stephan would lose decisively to Cameron who lost quite easily to Virgil reminiscent of how Ash lost to Paul at Lake Acuity.

    Given that, I would place Bulbasaur at #7. His leech seed has an aburdly quick launch speed as it ensnared two of Brandon's pokemon with no reaction which enables Bulbusaur to cripple pokemon and create opening against them. Bulbusaur managed to compete with Brandon's Dusclops who defeated Charizard and later defeated Solrock who beat Squirtle despite being moderately tired. Keep in mind that this happenes long ago and I would expect Bulbusaur to make even more improvements as all his pokemon had done during the Sinnoh League.

    #8 will go to Swellow who had a much better performance than Krookodile did against an opponent who actually won the league compared to Stephan who would lose very easily to Virgil. Swellow is one of the only pokemon in the anime other than the top 6 who has canonically swept through multiple pokemon in a league, so Swellow would be #8 on the list.
     
  12. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    First off all Stephan never faced Cameron or Virgil, so I don’t know how you’re making such comparisons. 2nd Stephan’s Sawk post-clubsplosion was an absolute beast and Krookodile (despite easily being in worse condition than Sawk) still took it out. Leopard has no prior feats so we don’t know how strong it is (a.k.a there’s nothing contradictory about its performance against Krookodile). Starring in Brycen’s gym, beating Iris’s Dragonite and tanking Meloetta’s Hyper Voice (better than Swellow ever took a move from a legendary) along with blatant writer acknowledgement cements Krookodile’s place above Swellow.

    Honestly Swellow is overrated; it barely makes the top 12 as of XYZ as far as I’m concerned:

    1. Greninja
    2. Peakachu
    3. Charizard
    4. Infernape
    5. Sceptile
    6. Snorlax
    7. Krookodile
    8. Bulbasaur
    9. Heracross
    10. Gible
    11. Torkoal
    12. Swellow

    While I’m okay with some variation in the order (e.g. Krookodile, Bulbasaur and Heracross can be placed in any order), I can make a fairly good argument for why each of these 11 Pokémon are flat-out better than Swellow.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
  13. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Janice beat up Sam Peterson

    fine, fine bulba can be #8 at worst. i still think he's #7 though
     
  14. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    I'm making an inference predicated on:

    1. Cameron's victory against Ash despite committing multiple blunders including bringing only 5 pokemon.

    2. Ash being capable of beating Stephan without needing his 2 other powerhouses (Pikachu and Pignite).

    3. Cameron is blatantly given screeen time to emphasize how powerful his pokemon was including Riolu who clobbered Bianca's Emboar.

    I'm not gonna bother proving how Virgil is better than Stephan. That's like arguing how there's no proof that Alain is better than Sawyer as they've never fought directly even though that's pretty obvious.

    Sawk is a beast, but the fact is that Krookodile wouldn't have been able to fight even Stephan's Zebatrika after his fight with Liepard while Swellow has feats suggesting that he can. Quite frankly, Gliscor beating Paul's Drapion despite being exhausted from Ninjask without collapsing or kneeling afterwards is a much greater accomplishment than defeating a Liepard from Stephan and being extremely exhausted afterwards.

    Honeatly, I forgot about Gible and might even put him on par or slightly ahead of Swellow. I would definitely not put Heracross ahead of Swellow though. Swellow has swept pokemon within a league while Heracross never has and earned the win against Venusaur instead.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
    keepitsimple likes this.
  15. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Janice beat up Sam Peterson

    um what. they both were portrayed to look equally exhausted/damaged and out of breath. Leavanny easily did like 90% of the work taking down Sawk, Krookodile just finished the job.
     
    Ash-Pikachu likes this.
  16. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Yeah I don't see people hyping up Pikachu for beating Drake's Dragonite at the time despite both being in the same condition.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  17. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Janice beat up Sam Peterson

    Unless you look in Genaller's sig. :p
    I just wanted to correct his claim that Sawk was in better condition. If he was then I don't think he would have been OHKO'd by Aerial Ace, imo regarding the win Ash can thank Leavanny for the repeated Swarm X-scissors and all the other attacks it landed which did nearly all of the damage
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
    Ash-Pikachu likes this.
  18. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    Just gonna say that Cameron isn’t winning if Ash had used Krook, Palpitoad and Leavanny instead of Boldore, Oshawatt and Unfezzant.

    Deus Ex Lucario > Sawk sure though Riolu was evenly matched against Snivy.

    Let me illustrate how scaling works. Krookodile scales from Dragonite, Dragonite scales from Mamoswine, Mamoswine scales from Piplup and Piplup scales from pre-Ash training Chimchar who is rated based on his performances against Roark and at the Hearthome Tag Battle. Leopard doing that well against Krookodile just means Leopard was that good; plain and simple. There’s no issue with this as long as this doesn’t imply that Leopard was as strong or stronger than Sawk who was clearly portrayed as Stephan’s Ace. Finally I disagree with the notion that Krookodile couldn’t have beaten Zebstrika; I think Ash just wanted it to rest since he knew that Sawk would most likely be battling eventually and he wanted to let his best Pokémon in that battle rest up for that fight. Also by this logic could Infernape have not beaten Gastrodon or Froslass after beating Aggron and Ninjask respectively?



    Heracross outperfromaed Swellow both times they were in the same battle. It’s far easier to compare Pokémon who competed in the same battle than to compare Pokémon from across different battles since far fewer assumptions are needed.

    Against Spencer Heracross did the bulk of the work against Venasur as Venasur was shown panting when Swellow entered the battlefield and it was outright stated that the battle with Heracross weakened it. While it didn’t get hit directly, it got lucky since the clouds covered the sun just as Venasaur was about to finish charging Solarbeam (Ash even expresses worry at what would happen if Swellow got hit with Solarbeam in its condition) and was so exhausted after that fight that it got fodderised by Claydol.

    More importantly against Tobias Heracross performs much better than Swellow being able to evenly clash with Darkrai and even landing a solid hit with its strongest attack whereas Swellow on the other hand gets overpowered and falls without dealing any damage to Latios. If we assume Darkrai and Latios are about on par (which if anything is being generous to Latios) then the narrative clearly portrays Heracross as the superior Pokémon.
     
  19. MockingJ

    MockingJ Well-Known Member

    Swellow. That bird could take a bullet to the head and still keep battling.
     
  20. Genaller

    Genaller BW and SM Ash = #NotMyAsh

    Not if that bullet was encoted with the purge of luster xD.
     

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