• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Why are Ash's League rivals so last minute?

Leonhart

Imagineer
They tend to get introduced only to beat Ash.

Speaking of which, I still recall when Virgil was introduced and how most fans thought that he'd defeat Satoshi in the Isshu League, only for Kotetsu to do that instead. I wish that Virgil had gotten that honor, however.
 

AdvancedGenGenesect

Well-Known Member
I understand how most of the league characters seem to be introduced just to beat ash, but Richie was introduced again with a new purpose in Johto, to take down a robot Zapdos while taking down Cassidy and Butch (and pretty much the whole of TR in their mission to steal the three legendary birds).

This gave richie a very good purpose after the kanto league, and I actually started to like him because of it
 

SinnohEevee

Well-Known Member
Talking about Leagues, I think Ash will get regressed sooner or later, since the executives don't want him to win. This show can pull up a second and maybe even a third Best Wishes and it would still be making tons of money.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
I understand how most of the league characters seem to be introduced just to beat ash, but Richie was introduced again with a new purpose in Johto, to take down a robot Zapdos while taking down Cassidy and Butch (and pretty much the whole of TR in their mission to steal the three legendary birds).

This gave richie a very good purpose after the kanto league, and I actually started to like him because of it

Yeah, I actually liked how Ritchie returned. Heck, I hoped that Tobias would return in Unova somehow if only to expand on him.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
I think of all the last minute dreamcrushers Harrison was the most logical one and done the perfect way. He was used to introduce ash to the hoenn region and he was the one who recommended him to go there.
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
I suspect the writers didn't plan out far ahead. Or they just needed to create an excuse for Ash to lose since in their minds Pokemon Champion=Pokemon Master=Ash's story is complete and the anime ends=goodbye money
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
I suspect the writers didn't plan out far ahead. Or they just needed to create an excuse for Ash to lose since in their minds Pokemon Champion=Pokemon Master=Ash's story is complete and the anime ends=goodbye money

Even though he's already the Orange Islands Champion already and still he isn't considered to be a Pokémon Master.

And of course I believe it's because the writers like to make a dream crusher out of nowhere so that Ash would not as easily anticipate the strength of the Trainer.
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
Even though he's already the Orange Islands Champion already and still he isn't considered to be a Pokémon Master.

And of course I believe it's because the writers like to make a dream crusher out of nowhere so that Ash would not as easily anticipate the strength of the Trainer.

That was filler, so it doesn't count in their eyes. Though if there's a better reason why the writers do it on and one, I would like to hear it. I want an answer why they continue doing this
 

MattySadler

Well-Known Member
Really makes you realise what a frustrating series this is, doesn't it? Its a shame this isn't a tight, well-written story. Such a waste as the Pokemon World is a work of genius, so easy to get sucked into.

I have always had a soft spot for Ritchie as, not only does he have the nostalgia factor, but he also appeared after the league and had a Pokemon Chronicles episode as well. Otherwise I find Ash's league rivals to all be pretty unforgettable.

Tobias is the real waste, a mysterious character with at least two legendary Pokemon, crying out for some sort of follow-up story, and then he just vanished without a trace.

I like Aduro's idea of having a small group of strong, competent trainers who can be each other's rivals and keep us guessing which will come out on top in the league.
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
Really makes you realise what a frustrating series this is, doesn't it? Its a shame this isn't a tight, well-written story. Such a waste as the Pokemon World is a work of genius, so easy to get sucked into.

I have always had a soft spot for Ritchie as, not only does he have the nostalgia factor, but he also appeared after the league and had a Pokemon Chronicles episode as well. Otherwise I find Ash's league rivals to all be pretty unforgettable.

Tobias is the real waste, a mysterious character with at least two legendary Pokemon, crying out for some sort of follow-up story, and then he just vanished without a trace.

I like Aduro's idea of having a small group of strong, competent trainers who can be each other's rivals and keep us guessing which will come out on top in the league.

Tobias is a literal plot device that disguises itself as a man
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Like... I don't hate them completely. If Ash has to lose, I prefer that he goes down swinging.

However, one thing that make Cameron (yes, HIM) and Alain stand out among them is how they are introduced well before the League begins. I feel like this is how it should be done rather than shoehorning a random League participant like Tobias to transparently bump out Ash.

Hell, with Cameron, we had Virgil who was initially though to the League rival so I can appreciate the misdirection if nothing else. This is something that could've been done with Johto through Sinnoh.

When building up to a tournament arc, you wanna keep some form of suspense. But who do you think is going to bring Ash down in the Sinnoh League? Barry, Paul or that one randy with a Darkrai?

The reason why League Rivals are last minutes is to give the notion that there are always trainers that are stronger than Ash even if he has beaten his rival. If Ash defeats everyone, it would be easy to assume that he retires and settle after supposedly becoming the best. The League Rival is supposed to re-motivate Ash to continue on journeying.

But if they appear too early, then they would be seen as rivals that Ash needs to beat before his journey comes to a close, not the rival that represents the next level. You've seen it with Alain. People legitimately thought that Ash has a chance of defeating Alain and becoming the champion. Alain is simply not seen as a League rival due to his more established history and character (as well as the fact that he's not actually better as a trainer compared to Ash).

So you can either a fully developed League Rival with actual depth beyond defeating Ash but risk people really want Ash to win above all else.

And that has led to bigger backlashes.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
So you can either a fully developed League Rival with actual depth beyond defeating Ash but risk people really want Ash to win above all else.

Well, even if it was mishandled with Alain, I'll give the Anime credit for that bit of uncertainty compared to before.
 

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
It seems to be because they don't know how to write a show centered around a league champion. It sets up a precedent that would be hard to ignore or just sweep away.

What would they do with ash if he won a league? I've seen the "champion's league" brought up. So, then what? If he beats all of a region's E4, wins, then beats that regions champion, then what?

Now, I know people will say the likelihood of these things happening is unlikely, but just consider where I'm going with this.

So, if he beats a regional champion then what? Does he go back and challenge older regions leagues? Or should he go straight to a champion's league tournament like in BW2?

It seems like Ash's league rivals are "last minute" because the writers have never intended for him to win a league, which would explain why they tend to be poorly developed, which then tells me that the amount of time they spend mapping out league "rivals" is questionable at best. To me, if they intended for Ash to win a league and to a lesser extent fight good rivals, a little more effort and maybe a little foreshadowing would go a long way.
 

Aduro

Mt.BtlMaster
The reason why League Rivals are last minutes is to give the notion that there are always trainers that are stronger than Ash even if he has beaten his rival. If Ash defeats everyone, it would be easy to assume that he retires and settle after supposedly becoming the best. The League Rival is supposed to re-motivate Ash to continue on journeying.

But if they appear too early, then they would be seen as rivals that Ash needs to beat before his journey comes to a close, not the rival that represents the next level. You've seen it with Alain. People legitimately thought that Ash has a chance of defeating Alain and becoming the champion. Alain is simply not seen as a League rival due to his more established history and character (as well as the fact that he's not actually better as a trainer compared to Ash).

There is a potential medium though. Ash could get closer to his league rival without actually surpassing them. One really simple example was in Fairy Tail, Natsu took on Gildartz, a much older and more powerful mage. He didn't stand a chance in the battle but he did manage to push him back a few inches which surprised Gildartz, showing that Natsu had a chance. The next time they sparred, Natsu managed to push Gildartz back by several metres, indicating that he was catching up.

Its possible that they could have done something similar with Harrison or Tyson. By having Ash lose 6-0 or 6-2 to them in a crushing defeat early on in the region. But then in the finals make Ash lose a really close 6-5.
 
Last edited:

RedJirachi

Veteran member
This may just be me being cynical, but I think it's just lazy writing
 

Xeogran

Marshadow Fan
That was filler, so it doesn't count in their eyes. Though if there's a better reason why the writers do it on and one, I would like to hear it. I want an answer why they continue doing this

It wasn't filler for the Anime. Ash caught Snorlax and Lapras in there, both of which appeared/were mentioned in later gens. Also, I think they still show Ash's Trophy from time to time at his house.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member
I suspect the writers didn't plan out far ahead. Or they just needed to create an excuse for Ash to lose since in their minds Pokemon Champion=Pokemon Master=Ash's story is complete and the anime ends=goodbye money

It feels similar to how Manga is written as the author plays it by year, arc by arc and being flexible for any changes...
 

gentwoer

Well-Known Member
I assumed Ritchie being last minute was because the original plan was for Ash to face off against Gary but when they decided to post pone their battle until the end of Johto Gary was quickly defeated in the fourth round and Ritchie came the hell out of nowhere as a Ash clone.
 

LilyTwo

Well-Known Member
The only one I can think of that was REALLY last-minute and a Deus Ex Machina of sorts was Tobias, who was less of a character, and more of a plot device who just happened to be able to walk and talk.

Of course, Cameron had all sort of other problems, which make him even WORSE than Tobias in several ways...
 

J. D. Guy

Well-Known Member
Speaking of which, I still recall when Virgil was introduced and how most fans thought that he'd defeat Satoshi in the Isshu League, only for Kotetsu to do that instead. I wish that Virgil had gotten that honor, however.

Personal opinions (and likely abject and undue hatred towards Cameron) aside, I do not see what would have been brought to the proverbial table for Ash to loose to Virgil, especially as to what was brought to the table with the battle and loss from Cameron, a character that was made to foil Ash and who was more emphatically fleshed out than Virgil (who, do not misunderstand, was fleshed out, but in a single episode as apposed to Cameron's arc).

Really makes you realise what a frustrating series this is, doesn't it? Its a shame this isn't a tight, well-written story. Such a waste as the Pokemon World is a work of genius, so easy to get sucked into. .

I, for one, don't see the show as "frustrating", though that is because I love, respect, and do not look down on this show for what it is. To that degree, I cannot empathize with this opinion at all, and in truth, I feel that it's fundamentally misconstrued.

The only one I can think of that was REALLY last-minute and a Deus Ex Machina of sorts was Tobias, who was less of a character, and more of a plot device who just happened to be able to walk and talk.

Of course, Cameron had all sort of other problems, which make him even WORSE than Tobias in several ways...

I feel Cameron is pretty awesome, both in character and in concept.

Granted, I don't take issue with Tobias or see him as a problem, so...
 
Last edited:
Top