• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Why are battles in Journeys so freaking underwhelming?

Evstike

Take me back to peak pokemon
The 3D Cameras were removed in SM & PM because most of the battles take place outside. In XY, we had Gym Battles which had 3D Cameras because they had a Set 3D Model of the Gyms in which the battles took place and the Animators knew the limitations. I fully expect to see 3D Cameras come back if Gym Battles become a priority one day.
Nonsense.
Did you not watch XY or the Mega Evolution specials where the 3D backgrounds were frequently used outside? If they wanted to use them in SM, they would have. Most of the major PWC battles have taken place in gyms, so why aren't they using them now following your logic? What does battles being outside have to do with removing 3D backgrounds when they can just make outdoor 3D backgrounds? Pretty sure this isn't the reason.
One of the Good Things that Tomiyasu did do, was remove the Background CGI in SM. He decided to replace it with full hand-drawn backgrounds instead but the CGI was brought back for the Current Series. I wonder why.
What?
 

Dynamic_Fusion

HIKARI HYPE
?

We had things like ash vs diantha, and ramos’s gym looked more like a forest than a room. So why would fighting outside be a reason to not use 3D camera?
Nonsense.
Did you not watch XY or the Mega Evolution specials where the 3D backgrounds were frequently used outside? If they wanted to use them in SM, they would have. Most of the major PWC battles have taken place in gyms, so why aren't they using them now following your logic? What does battles being outside have to do with removing 3D backgrounds when they can just make outdoor 3D backgrounds? Pretty sure this isn't the reason.

What?
I was just elaborating on whatever TheCanipaEffect recently said in a comment section.
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
I was just elaborating on whatever TheCanipaEffect recently said in a comment section.
Still sounds like a pretty bull reasoning. Unless someone else has a more thorough explanation or official source that says that, i’m not buying it.

We had shots where ash and greninja ran through the forest using CG background, fights on plains surrounded by forests which used CG, and again ramos’s gym was actually the most telling since we don’t even see the ‘walls’ of the gym and only have the trees acting as the boundary. I have no idea why they suddenly couldn’t the do same for SM if they wanted to.

If anything shows like demon slayer used the CG and camera work to make fights outside in forests more dynamic. Actually, to not stray from pokemon, doesn’t koko do the same?
 
Last edited:

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
You do not compare OLM with freakin' Ufotable. It's like a cockroach charging into a 5-story mansion with golden walls.
I’m not really comparing their quality, because lol that’s not fair by any stretch. Just saying that being outside is the big reason they took away the 3D seems weird, when they and other studio have used it for outdoor scenes plenty.

If anything the kahuna battles like olivia and nanu were even more walled in by the rocks around them rather than some of the stuff in XY, and that’s when you’d expect them to use it if it’s still on the table. I’d have an easier time believing that they just became allergic to anything 3D because ‘muh fluid 2D’ is what they were prioritizing.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
TPCI could have approached ufotable instead of OLM, why didn't they?
I mean I doubt Ufotable would've handled a long-running show, and TPC wants the anime to be weekly rather than seasonal because m a r k e t i n g.
checks dates
Heck Ufotable didn't even exist back when the anime came out
 

Blue Saturday

Violet Prince❤️
I’m mostly confused by the metric for a "good battle" because are we talking about battle choreography? Animation and art? Actual action and strategy shown by both parties. Because I personally enjoy plenty of early series battles that certainly didn't have that super beautiful animation and fluidity that newer anime have. Haruka v. Shuu, Satoshi v. Sumomo, and Satoshi v. Kenyan were all good battles to me and they didn't have more modern animation beats and all.

I guess it depends on who you ask but I think I prefer a battle with more emphasis on the actions of the Pokémon and trainers and storytelling rather than just the spectacular of whether the animation is beautiful or not. Buoysel learning Water Pulse, pulling out Swift Swim, evading Bone Rush and the usage of Aqua Jet was good battle to me for what happened not whether it was animated beautifully. I liked seeing the glass-wearing crocodile pull out Aerial Ace and suddenly start flying after the previous fight with Swarm before. Haruka's usage of the water/fire combo harkening back to the Battle Dome contributed well to her pulling back against Shuu's Dragon-Razor Wind formation.

I never cared for the "DBZ-style" fist punching back and forth that ultimately was there for animation fluff without having any impact on the actual narrative weight of the fight when I prefer the writers focus more on the actual narrative and progression of the confrontation more than anything. I think for me a battle starts and end with proper writing, strategy and in-universe handling narratively rather than boiling down to choreography/animation beats. Even if I can appreciate a good in-universe writing solution mixed in with cool animation beats like Riolu breaking Octolock and going into a close-quarters fight with Otsopus.

My main problem with newer battles is they move too fast at times. Gengar kind of just destroyed Vizquez's Raichu too easily and got KO'd itself too fast for my taste. They started off good with the good scuffle and actions by Pikachu with the tail grounding callback and usage of Raichu's tail and Reflect. I just want more of a tug-of-war rather than constant sweeping and all. I don't really care about excessive fluff close combat scenes or erratic camera usage/3D effects. (Well unless the battle is obvs something for the sake of just pure spectacular, like the opening fight in the Darkrai movie, Goukazaru vs. Gureggru's little scrap always charmed me.)

I do wish the technicalities of battles were honored more, feels like super effective moves, status moves, disadvantages and abilities don't matter a ton anymore and characters are hardly costed anything by these factors anymore in-favor of more of a focus on the win-lose end result.
 
Last edited:

Evstike

Take me back to peak pokemon
Why does every battle have a ridiculous amount of times where both Pokemon attack each other at the same time and one Pokemon who gets a KO and faints after taking 1 hit or just loses without even getting a KO.
 

Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
Production has likely been impacted by other projects as well as real-world conditions. It happens. Pokemon can't always have endless good battles if it doesn't have a good schedule and the animators to pull it off. Toei Animation's Dai no Dai-bouken remake managed to pull it off because of its large backlog of episodes finished by the time broadcast began and the production itself being able to recruit numerous skilled animators to work during the extended production schedule. Right now the Pokemon anime simply is not in the good position it was during Sun & Moon, where it had a huge number of skilled animators on hand.
 

Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
Let me remind you that most of the best battles have been written by Atsuhiko Tomioka, and his partner storyboarder is often Yuji Asada (they're both a legendary combo). When paired with lead animators like Iwane and Shimura, you usually get a bang on episode.

Tomiyasu doesn't have anything to do with those battles.

So, in the end, it comes down to lowered/miserly budget. Yeah, the pandemic did have an effect, but the episodes that would have been in production before the outbreak don't exactly have the best animation either. Only the Leon/Lance and Visquez episodes really stand out and even then, they're not exactly as good as the stuff seen in XY and SM.

It's not really a case of 'partner' so much as it is that Tomioka is usually assigned the episodes with the important battles and Asada is assigned to storyboard and direct (enshutsu) the episodes that Tomioka writes because Iwane Masa'aki is the animation supervisor of those episodes. Asada and Iwane are both from Studio Cockpit (the original studio closed down years ago but they're allowed to use the name for their two-man studio). Asada handles the initial storyboard (with Iwane doing uncredited changes) and oversees the production of the episode as its director (with the series director and the chief director also overseeing things, just less so).

Tomiyasu's job is the oversee the entire production of the series and set the tone of the many aspects. If the post-production team hits a wall it's Tomiyasu they go to with their creative problem, for example. Tomiyasu also oversees the storyboarding. People seem to forget this but Tomiyasu is also a storyboard artist himself. He storyboarded and directed before Sun & Moon, for example. He was the storyboard artist and episode director of Pocket Monster: The Origin Episode #4 (Lizardon versus Mewtwo). He was also the Series Director of Pokemon Generations and storyboarded Episodes #1 and #2. He knows action storyboarding.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Production has likely been impacted by other projects as well as real-world conditions. It happens. Pokemon can't always have endless good battles if it doesn't have a good schedule and the animators to pull it off. Toei Animation's Dai no Dai-bouken remake managed to pull it off because of its large backlog of episodes finished by the time broadcast began and the production itself being able to recruit numerous skilled animators to work during the extended production schedule. Right now the Pokemon anime simply is not in the good position it was during Sun & Moon, where it had a huge number of skilled animators on hand.
Really unfortunate we are in such a position with a series that desperately needs good battles
Also on an unrelated note, I always enjoy your posts, they are always so informative and detailed, I always like hearing your perspective
 

Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
Anime for children are made in the time that they are made in. The ultimate purpose of Pokemon cartoon series' are to sell merchandise, ultimately the themes of the creative staff are theirs alone to add and deal with. Pokemon (2019) has a clear vision for itself and it's okay for that vision to change over time but that does not mean pandering to a bunch of adult westerners whom might as well not even exist to the staff.

Frankly, I love how the 2019 series has variety. I love the weird two-story episodes, the episodic jumping around from different types of stories about the world of Pokemon and how humans live with them and the occasional battle-focused episode. The series has a lot of limitless potential and I love seeing it expand and just plain go anywhere and do anything any given week while also including the occasional story arc. It's exciting.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
the episodic jumping around from different types of stories about the world of Pokemon
Almost entirely set in Vermilion, and we don't really get a lot of COTDs with their own stories that are the main focus in the episodes they show up (the ones that do show are nutjobs who make one question how they're even alive or how they haven't killed anyone by accident).
and how humans live with them
Don't ask that question in Castelia City circa Episode 48.

Also, it's not like we haven't seen this hundreds of times already, so it isn't special here.
and the occasional battle-focused episode.
Whole reason this thread exists.
The series has a lot of limitless potential
Oof.
 
Last edited:
Top