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Why Are The Fire Starter's Final Evolutions Since Generation 5 Cursed To Be Hated?

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Tepig Pignite Emboar 969

Well-Known Member
I know that it is a fact that all the fire starters and their evolutions from Generations 1-4 are pretty well loved and possibly the most loved starter Pokémon of their generation. But all that changed when Generation 5 came out. When Tepig's evolutions, Pignite and Emboar were revealed, lots of people despised them for no good reason, saying it was the worst starter ever and still say that to this day. I still don't understand to this day why my favorite starter Pokémon was the first fire starter to be hated. And it is because of this that the final evolutions of the fire starters after Generation 5 are also hated. Now they are not as hated as Pignite or Emboar, especially because lots of people love the middle evolutions of the fire starters from Generation 6-8. Even though that is true, their final evolutions here still hated although not as hated as Emboar. So why is it that the fire starter's final evolutions since Generation 5 are cursed to be hated? It is like you hate one fire starter Pokémon and you decide to hate the final evolutions of the ones after and I am afraid that Fuecoco will end up the same way.
 

octoboy

I Crush Everything
The sentiment against recent-gen fire starters isn't universal, sure (just about no subjective opinion ever is), but it's definitely a sentiment I've observed from plenty of people as well, so I don't think it's fair to say the OP is making stuff up. If anything, the recent-gen fire starters have received quite a bit of vocal backlash lately, if not being disliked by a majority.

I'd say the increasing flack towards the more recent fire starters appears to be due to the designs being, for lack of a better word, flanderized in recent generations. In gen 3, blaziken was introduced as the first fire/fighting type, a novel type which was a pretty cool combination. And, of course, with the fighting type came some degree of anthropomorphization which is kind of a must for a fighting type, which has to feasibly pull off stylized fight moves, though in blaziken's case it was relatively subtle. This was followed up in gen 4 with another fire/fighting type, the first ever repeat of a dual type combination for a starter, and slightly more anthropomorphized than the last, with armour-esque extensions. Still, it was relatively subtle, and infernape definitely had quite a bit of appeal to it, so people still liked it.

Gen 5 seemed to be a turning point, and looking back, I'd say a lot of things came together to make emboar leave a bad taste in the mouth of many which would affect reception for fire type starters for a long time coming. First off, this was the first time any type, dual or single had been repeated 3 times in a row for 3 generations straight. I think a lot of players were ready for something new at that point, but the developers gave more of the same - and as the only dual typed starter in the whole gen to boot, making the repeat feel forced. The anthropomorphization in the design was also much more apparent here - monkeys are primates like humans, and birds are already bipedal like humans, so the anthropomorphization in the previous starters' designs was a bit more natural and could be played more subtly. Pigs, on the other hand, are quadrupedal, and even emboar's unevolved form was quadrupedal, so emboar came off a lot more egregiously anthropomorphic than its forebears - again, making the concept feel kind of forced, sort of shoehorning tepig into a starter archetype it didn't really fit in, attempting to recapture the magic of the previous starters with the same type. And I think the fact that emboar was just generally less appealing than the fire starters before it just capped off the disdain. Rather than the agile, acrobatic starters that came before it, emboar was a bulky, clunky thing - while somehow having worse defence stats than any of the leaner fire starters that came before it. Having little effectiveness in 2-player battles left emboar with little to like about it and quite a few people really wishing the fire starters to be taken in a new direction.

As the generations went on, though, the developers seem to have staunchly refused to do this, instead leaning directly into several of the trends which frustrated a lot of players. Ever since, the fire starters have been anthropomorphic mammals with 2 out of 3 of them evolving from quadrupedal unevolved forms and 2 out of 3 of them having designs which could feasibly be for fighting types - cinderace's jockish design makes it seem about as suited to the fighting type as the likes of passimian, and incineroar is based on a wrestler, much like emboar, and the fact that its design seems to deliberately incorporate a lot of emboar's disliked characteristics to troll the outcriers, while suiting its heel persona pretty well, probably didn't help the reputation of fire starters overall. I wouldn't necessarily say all these designs are bad (I probably like delphox the best out of Kalos's starters), and there are still quite a few who like these starters (incineroar was very popular among VGC players, and I've heard it said that cinderace was actually the most popular gen 8 starter overall), but there is a quite vocal crowd who strongly believes that the people who design the fire type starters are in a rut of anthropomorphic, usually sporty mammals. I've heard this sort of complaint regarding final forms of starters as a whole, that they're getting too anthropomorphized as of late (look at all the memes of people crossing their fingers for sprigatito to remain quadrupedal after evolving), but the fire starters appear to especially epitomize this, especially considering that it's the only starter type whose final forms have consistently had a humanoid body plan - there have been a few water starters which end up looking pinniped-like, and the grass starters had an early trend of being quadrupedal (and even the more human-character-inspired serperior is still serpentine).

Time will tell if the starters of the future will begin to look different. Sure these trends aren't objective design flaws, and there may not even actually be that many people who mind, but those who do have a bone to pick with the designs of fully-evolved starters, especially the fire-typed ones, have a vocal presence, and these are my best guesses as to why they aren't too happy with the later fire starters.
 
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BCVM22

Well-Known Member
so I don't think it's fair to say the OP is making stuff up.

“Why Are The Fire Starter's Final Evolutions Since Generation 5 Cursed To Be Hated?”

There’s not a whole lot of quantifiable discussion here.
 

octoboy

I Crush Everything
^ Not if you read the title at face value, but it seems apparent to me that if you read between the lines, the real question the OP meant to pose was 'why have the fire starters final evolutions consistently been receiving visible vocal disdain towards them'?

Which, as I said before, doesn't have to mean substantially-numbered, as vocal minorities can definitely gain visibility among communities.
 

Jesness

Togekiss Enthusiast
Even though the name of the franchise is Pocket Monsters, Pokemon within the universe act as a stand-in for animals. The representation isn't one-for-one however and for better or worse there is inherently a large degree of anthropomorphism. The anthro elements don't seem to be well implemented, however. Pokemon either have too many human elements (ala the fire starters for the last four generations ) making them feel more like generic cartoon characters and less like Pokemon or are otherwise inanimate objects with faces. Both of those things tend to be points of contention within the fanbase. The situation doesn't seem to be as dire as you're making it out to be, however. Lots of people do like those fire starters, and even if they don't why does it matter? Wave your "I <3 Emboar," flag proudly! ;)
 

Trillion

Well-Known Member
i've also seen a lot of criticism for samurott, chesnaught, and inteleon

it's not just a fire starter thing lol. people simply have opinions
 

Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.
Even though the name of the franchise is Pocket Monsters, Pokemon within the universe act as a stand-in for animals. The representation isn't one-for-one however and for better or worse there is inherently a large degree of anthropomorphism. The anthro elements don't seem to be well implemented, however. Pokemon either have too many human elements (ala the fire starters for the last four generations ) making them feel more like generic cartoon characters and less like Pokemon or are otherwise inanimate objects with faces. Both of those things tend to be points of contention within the fanbase. The situation doesn't seem to be as dire as you're making it out to be, however. Lots of people do like those fire starters, and even if they don't why does it matter? Wave your "I <3 Emboar," flag proudly! ;)

At least pokemon doesn't have any pokemon that are literally just a humans with clothes like Angewomon from Digimon. Probably one of Emboar's main problems was that fans didn't expect Pignite and Emboar to have a "Fat Wrestler" motif.

I know i'm crude but on the other spectrum when people take too much liking to a pokemon design it can snowball out of control and into the dar darker corners of the internet fanart. Where Anthro motifs gets out of hand with pokemon like Gardevoir and Lopunny. Even Renamon who is similar to Lucario hasn't exactly been safe either going full on furry.
 

octoboy

I Crush Everything
I guess what @Jesness pointed out makes a bit of sense (and kind of ties in to what I was saying earlier) Pokefan's bringing up lucario made me wonder about what makes it exempt from flack for being anthropomorphized.

There always have been anthropomorphic pokémon, to the point of their having a whole breeding group dedicated to them (there's also quite a bit of precedent for pokémon resembling inanimate objects, which Jesness also pointed out, which is another case where pokémon with this style of design seem to get more flack in recent gens than previous ones). I suppose even the earlier anthropomorphic pokémon have been seen as uncanny by quite a few (jynx and Mr. Mime have their fair share of disdainers), but there are cases like lucario or lopunny which are anthropomorphic, yet are quite popular, having less criticism for their design than some fully-evolved starters.

I suspect part of this discrepancy might be due to these species anthropomorphic features sticking out less due to its being consistent throughout their line - I think the transition from quadrupedal unevolved forms to bipedal, anthropomorphized final forms may come off as jarring to some. But even then, I haven't heard much criticism for zoroark's design, and its unevolved form is much more animal-like, and on all fours.

Another possible interpretation might be that anthropomorphized final forms aren't disliked per se, but seen as unsuitable for a starter, which is something that doesn't really have precedent since the original gen. I've heard some say that they missed fully-evolved starters being character-neutral wild-animal-like figures which could be seen as having any personality a player could come up with - something a bit harder to do with starters which end up embodying a certain character type as more recent starters tend to in their final forms. That is, as with everything else, though subjective, and anyone who likes their recent-gen starters just fine can go along enjoying them.

I know i'm crude but on the other spectrum when people take too much liking to a pokemon design it can snowball out of control and into the dar darker corners of the internet fanart. Where Anthro motifs gets out of hand with pokemon like Gardevoir and Lopunny. Even Renamon who is similar to Lucario hasn't exactly been safe either going full on furry.
To be fair, Rule 34 applies to any pokémon, just as it applies to any of anything. I remember when I first joined back in the later stages of gen 3 and there were people saying they found charizard and swampert sexy. I even made a thread on the subject because no one had explained Rule 34 to me, and the concept puzzled me, so I asked about it, leading to probably the only time I had something I posted reposted on Reddit.

In short, good luck trying to make a character design that isn't "lewdable", as pervy online artists find a way no matter what.
 

Ryker101

Well-Known Member
I love Incineroar but these last 3 have been really humanoid, it’s pretty weird imo

And Emboar copied fire/fighting so ppl weren’t initially fond of it either
 

Tepig Pignite Emboar 969

Well-Known Member
I just ignore it as a whole, i just pick out a starter suitable for my journey and play the game.
I try to ignore it, but I see it everywhere Pokémon related that people hate Emboar and sometimes the final evolutions of the fire starters after too. I can't stand it.
i've also seen a lot of criticism for samurott, chesnaught, and inteleon

it's not just a fire starter thing lol. people simply have opinions
But I am only talking about the fire starters. The final evolutions of the fire starters since Gen 5 have been getting hate, especially Emboar and it sickens me. I don't care that they have different opinions from me.
I love Fennekin's line so..
I do too, but there are lots of people who hate Delphox as their number 1 hated starter. If you want to know, Mandjtv, and Eryizo both had Delphox as the worst starter because they thought it was ugly and they thought Fennekin and Braixen were better. They both even said "**** Delphox" in their videos. So if you want you can comment in their youtube videos and attack them for it.
I thought Incineroar and Cinderace were pretty popular and well liked.
I want them to be popular and well liked too just like Emboar.
I love Incineroar but these last 3 have been really humanoid, it’s pretty weird imo

And Emboar copied fire/fighting so ppl weren’t initially fond of it either
But it makes sense for Emboar to be fire and fighting because of its origin.
 
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OshyHikari

c l a r i t y
I love Incineroar but these last 3 have been really humanoid, it’s pretty weird imo

And Emboar copied fire/fighting so ppl weren’t initially fond of it either
It is so weird that we have never had a quadrupedal final stage for the Fire-type starters. I don’t have much hope in Fuecoco’s evolutions heading in that direction for that matter.

Emboar becoming a third consecutive Fire/Fighting starter was obviously going to lead to bad reception because the fandom got sick of the typing and wanted something new. Game Freak must have caught on to Emboar’s hatred because none of the Fire-type starters since have been part-Fighting, though Incineroar and Cinderace did receive slight criticism for having Fighting-type moves in their moveset and the former being a wrestler in appearance. Having Incineroar be a heel wrestler specifically does at least explain the Dark-type.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
At least pokemon doesn't have any pokemon that are literally just a humans with clothes like Angewomon from Digimon. Probably one of Emboar's main problems was that fans didn't expect Pignite and Emboar to have a "Fat Wrestler" motif.
Digimon's a different franchise with entirely different design philosophies. What works with it allows for designs like Angewomon to exist and fit into its creature design, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as it fits its direction. You're welcome to not prefer it, but that's not something to hold against it objectively.

Regardless, that's kind of getting away from the point of the topic.

I thought Incineroar and Cinderace were pretty popular and well liked.

They are, in the Pokemon of the Year poll from back in 2020 both were 6th for their respective regions and (in the case of Cinderace) is the most popular of their set. Additionally, both have had pretty consistent promotional presence in the franchise, and considering how merchandise driven the series is it's very unlikely they'd be pushing them if they didn't have any positive reception to them.

There is a point to be made about how vocal the dissent has been against the previous few Fire Starters as all four since Emboar have had some sort of backlash, but them all being completely hated is definitely not true.
 

octoboy

I Crush Everything
I do too, but there are lots of people who hate Delphox as their number 1 hated starter. If you want to know, Mandjtv, and Eryizo both had Delphox as the worst starter because they thought it was ugly and they thought Fennekin and Braixen were better. They both even said "**** Delphox" in their videos. So if you want you can comment in their youtube videos and attack them for it.
Delphox has always been the most puzzling in terms of backlash to me. I can understand disdain towards emboar for beating a dead horse of a type combo, or incineroar for deliberately resembling emboar as a meta-troll design, but delphox is the most against-type fire starter of the recent starters, its psychic type being almost arguably the opposite type to fighting, whereas most of the other fire starters have a design based on physical activity (and may or may not have a fighting type to go with it).

It's not even that out-there appearance wise in comparison to its fellow starters. I recall in the early stages of gen 6 chesnaught and greninja getting just as much flack as delphox, which seemed a bit more understandable to the other 2 for me (greninja's tongue-scarf is pretty bizarre, and I can see someone finding chesnaught funny-looking, especially by association with quilladin). I guess greninja managed to grow on quite a few people after it was prominently featured in the anime, but delphox didn't really seem that far off from some of the other anthropomorphic fox pokémon like lucario and zoroark.

The one complaint I might see some having is that delphox is its looking a bit "girly" for a usually-male starter, but even then, I'd say the design could very well read as an androgynous mage archetype, moreso than braixen, which apparently isn't as subject to the backlash. I haven't seen those videos (or at least don't recall them), so perhaps I might get more of an understanding if I watch them.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
I'm pretty sure Gaogaen (Incineroar) had a rather big following when it debuted, so at the very least the supposed "pattern" of final stage Fire-type Starters being hated since Gen V has already been broken.
 
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