Why Are The Fire Starter's Final Evolutions Since Generation 5 Cursed To Be Hated?

[Pokemon Power]

Hey, I think Incineroar is cool.

 

[Tepig Pignite Emboar 969]

Hey, I think Incineroar is cool.

Yeah, me too.

 

[octoboy]

I'm pretty sure Gaogaen (Incineroar) had a rather big following when it debuted, so at the very least the supposed "pattern" of final stage Fire-type Starters being hated since Gen V has already been broken.

As I've said before, the pattern isn't so much that of unpopularity as it is of there being vocal backlash against each fire starter, which incineroar hasn't been exempt from (I've heard quite a few say it's too anthropomorphized and is too much of a wannabe fighting type due to resembling a wrestler).

Though thinking again, I have to wonder if part of this seeming trend is just a result of the internet growing progressively prevalent as time goes on, and with Pokémon having a broader internet following. I seem to recall Pokémon being pretty a pretty niche fandom when I first joined Serebii, while it's regained some of its wider popularity a bit more recently. Maybe that just makes it much more easy to notice the still-relatively-small group of people who have a problem with the fire starters.

Though why this effect seems disproportionate rather than also applying to the other starters seems curious.

 

[JHG95]

I for one, like Delphox, Emboar, and Incineroar.

 

[Tepig Pignite Emboar 969]

I for one, like Delphox, Emboar, and Incineroar.

I like them all too as well.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I do think Emboar got a lot of hate at the time it was revealed only because it was the third Fire/Fighting starter in a row. It’s my favorite final Unova Starter and Heat Crash is a really useful move in a play through of BW because only nine Pokémon in the BW Dex are heavier than Emboar and three of them are weak to Fire and will still get a decent amount of damage from the attack.

 

[Jesness]

At least pokemon doesn't have any pokemon that are literally just a humans with clothes like Angewomon from Digimon. Probably one of Emboar's main problems was that fans didn't expect Pignite and Emboar to have a "Fat Wrestler" motif.

I know i'm crude but on the other spectrum when people take too much liking to a pokemon design it can snowball out of control and into the dar darker corners of the internet fanart. Where Anthro motifs gets out of hand with pokemon like Gardevoir and Lopunny. Even Renamon who is similar to Lucario hasn't exactly been safe either going full on furry.

That was the case for me. I actually have come to like Emboar quite a bit but when I first saw Pignite for the first time you hit the nail on the head: "What's up with this frigging side of bacon wearing a unitard?!" 'built-in' clothing on Pokemon really puts me off. I don't like Delphox for that reason; and while I do like Gardevoir, admittedly its 'dress' irritates me. In Pokemon Unite you can dress up your Pokemon, I wish this was something you could do in the main series and stop having pokemon with faux clothing. Also, welcome to the internet. Stay out of the dark corners.

The one complaint I might see some having is that delphox is its looking a bit "girly" for a usually-male starter, but even then, I'd say the design could very well read as an androgynous mage archetype, moreso than braixen, which apparently isn't as subject to the backlash. I haven't seen those videos (or at least don't recall them), so perhaps I might get more of an understanding if I watch them.

This is the only complaint I really remember as well. Delphox seems to be a decently popular Pokemon the last time I checked. Honestly, sometimes I think that gen 6 Pokemon get hate not because they're badly designed but because a lot of people like to hate on gen 6. As for Lucario and Zoroark, they really feel different from Pokemon like Emboar and Delphox. Partly, I'd wager it's because they're not Starter Pokemon; so there's not as much riding on their designs. They don't need to fill some character archetype like 'Samurai' or 'Mage.' Yeah, they're bipedal but they're still very clearly a dog and a fox.

 

[Venia Silente]

"Cursed to be Hated"?

I mean, perhaps not that much, but historically they have been severe disappointments, though I'd contest that this sentiment mostly starts from Generation VI and not generation V; and it basically boils down to a combination of two factors in different degrees:

* not feeling well-related to their base stages
* being needlessly bipedal or humanlike (and worse, Fighting-type or Fighting-like)

The starter bipedalism is unfortunately a trend with not only starters but also with Pokémon general, as newer designs try to mix moe / anime uwu with a Digimon feel, but it's certainly more notable with starters due to the population sample size (only one Water line absolutely avoid bipedalism, for example).

Fennekin for example was fine as a quadrupedal. Braixen could have been excused for her bipedalism via furry waifu factor (even Pokkén plays it strong, starting with the trailers, her super has her sending a kiss to the camera; they knew what they were doing). Delphox? It has none of that waifu factor going on for it. The ear hairtuffs are just weird, it's disproportionately tall, and it loses the "butt stick" appeal. There's also quite some decent fanmade quadrupedal Delphox (and Braixen) versions that feel more in-line with what Fennekin was going for by itself (not as part of a trio though!).

Incineroar, well, it's enough of a well-known case.

The strange thing with Incineroar is that it being bipedal does make sense, but somehow the correlation to being also Dark-type and based on a lucha libre fighter was lost on... lots of the audience. It's a strange case in that it's either hated for being a non-Fighting Fighter, or for having subverted its evolution into a Fighter "at the last minute" (nothing in Torracat's design even remotely suggests Lucha Libre).

Now, none of that applies to Cinderace, so I do not want to hear any complaints about soft, good soccer bun.

 

[octoboy]

The starter bipedalism is unfortunately a trend with not only starters but also with Pokémon general, as newer designs try to mix moe / anime uwu with a Digimon feel, but it's certainly more notable with starters due to the population sample size (only one Water line absolutely avoid bipedalism, for example).

I wouldn't say transitioning to a bipedal form is completely new, seeing as there have always been cases like rhyhorn > rhydon or lairon > aggron which have become bipedal upon evolution. I was just thinking how well-liked rhydon is while being a stance-converted 'mon (with even quite a few of its dex entries referencing the fact). I suppose what is getting a bit more common is the evolved forms adopting human character archetypes while the unevolved form is a relatively straight animal (i. e. bunnelby going from a plain-old rabbit to the construction-worker-esque diggersby, the relatively straight mongoose yungoos becoming the detective-like gumshoos, etc.), something which isn't the case with the likes of rhydon or aggron which basically read as kaiju-type figures.

Fennekin for example was fine as a quadrupedal. Braixen could have been excused for her bipedalism via furry waifu factor (even Pokkén plays it strong, starting with the trailers, her super has her sending a kiss to the camera; they knew what they were doing). Delphox? It has none of that waifu factor going on for it. The ear hairtuffs are just weird, it's disproportionately tall, and it loses the "butt stick" appeal. There's also quite some decent fanmade quadrupedal Delphox (and Braixen) versions that feel more in-line with what Fennekin was going for by itself (not as part of a trio though!).

To be fair, having fennekin temporarily become bipedal as braixen, then revert back to quadrupedal as delphox would be kind of weird. I guess wartortle does get those foamy tails it promptly loses when it evolves, and grovyle also gets a temporary head-leaf, but still, designs in an evolution line should ideally represent development that builds on itself (species which form cocoons notwithstanding).

Also, I think fennekin had the issue of its not being the first fire-type fox pokémon, with there being 3 already one gen in with flareon and the vulpix line. I recall my first impression of fennekin being that it seemed like a rehash and being surprised at how well it stood out from its first-gen forebears. Eevee and by extension flareon are pretty fennec-fox-esque, so being a fennec probably wasn't enough to distinguish the line as a whole, and just making it psychic type probably wouldn't help either, as ninetales is pretty mystical on its own. Making it anthropomorphic seemed like a natural extension of its psychic type, kind of in a similar vein to alakazam, and gives the line something that neither of the other fire-type foxes before it had.

Which kind of ties in to something I suspect may be a reason behind the increasing trend of pokémon designs incorporating human character archetypes. Back in gen 1, pokémon tended to be more animalistic or monstrous (the likes of mr. mime or jynx notwithstanding), a lot of species being pretty straight counterparts to their animal origins. However, as more and more kinds of animals became used up as inspiration, developers needed new ways to keep new designs feeling original apart from basing the design on a new kind of animal. The solution appears to have been introducing human character archetypes as inspiration to give novelty to the new designs (i. e. there's already a pinniped pokémon in dewgong, but incorporating performer elements into the design gets you a whole new pokémon in primarina).

It seems this could explain the recent starters progressively adopting more human personas in their final forms, as starters are by definition part of a repetitive design formula, always having the same types. There's only so many times you can repeat plant-growing/fire-breathing/water-spewing animal which grows into a bigger plant-growing/fire-breathing/water-spewing animal before it gets stale, so the new starters need something to distinguish them, and the solution appears to have been to give the later designs more character by incorporating human character archetypes into their design.

Though there's some sort of irony to this if this is truly the case, as one of the major things people begrudge the fire starters for is for so often being same-y. The fire starter has ended up fighting type for 3 gens straight, and has ended up an anthropomorphic mammal for 4 gens straight, and it seems a big part of the vocal disdain towards them is having fallen into a pattern, to the point that something which may have come off as a repeat charizard in an earlier gen may seem a breath of fresh air currently. Perhaps current design principles could turn away from the crutch of human character-types as a source of novelty and produce starters that are well received by even the currently more cynical members of the community. But time will tell if or when that will happen.

And for now, I'd say the starters we've been getting have been pretty fun, if not quite in the same vein as the breed we had in gen 1.

 

[Miar]

I dunno. Delphox, Incineroar, Cinderace are pretty popular (I personally don't care for Incineroar but it was popular in the VGC iirc). Actually, "burly" like Incineroar or Emboar might be the problem: the worry of being "just another two-legged muscle-bound tough guy" overshadows all the hype. Why else was Fennekin revealed to know psychic moves from its first appearance?

But in the end we come to appreciate the final results for what they're worth.

 

[janejane6178]

I dunno. Delphox, Incineroar, Cinderace are pretty popular (I personally don't care for Incineroar but it was popular in the VGC iirc). Actually, "burly" like Incineroar or Emboar might be the problem: the worry of being "just another two-legged muscle-bound tough guy" overshadows all the hype. Why else was Fennekin revealed to know psychic moves from its first appearance?

But in the end we come to appreciate the final results for what they're worth.

I feel that Delphox is so underrated. I love it so much

 

[Pokefan_1987]

I avoid hate trains involving starters. However i have hatred passion for Miltank because of how infuriating it is designed to be. It's bad enough it has really good stats for a 3rd gym. But giving it Scrappy and a Lum Berry in Gen 4 makes it absurd without planning.

I wish they would stop bringing it back in trainer battles since scrappy is too good on a pokemon that can build up a lot of rollout damage.
A lot of Gen 6 trainers in Kalos and Alola brought this cow back. I even hate it's design as a whole.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

I think they are all fine.

Emboar problem seems to be coming right after the motif was used for 2 times, as everyone said.

I think the typing was a result of GF not quite getting Blaziken's and Infernape's reception by the fanbase. They probably thought it was the players' preference for fire starters to have, well, fighter motifs. I'd say that even justify Incineroar and Cinderace turning out to be the what they are.

I still like them though. Cinderace is one of my favorite starters!

Also, as a final note, remember: A Libero Cinderace BECOMES a fighting type when it uses of moves with that typing lol

At least pokemon doesn't have any pokemon that are literally just a humans with clothes like Angewomon from Digimon. Probably one of Emboar's main problems was that fans didn't expect Pignite and Emboar to have a "Fat Wrestler" motif.

Angemon and Angewomon make sense given their motifs. Also, the main digimon from Tamers are even more justified since Dukemon, Sakuyamon, SaintGargomon and Justimon were the results of the base digimon fusing with their respective human partners.

The place where it's really bad is Monster Strike. Despite the name, nearly all units I see are anime girls (and some anime boys) on weird outfits.

Now, that's a misleading title.

Hey, I think Incineroar is cool.

Me too

 

[meghzop]

I guess greninja managed to grow on quite a few people after it was prominently featured in the anime, but delphox didn't really seem that far off from some of the other anthropomorphic fox pokémon like lucario and zoroark.