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Why do people dislike Black and White and Sun and Moon animes?

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Anipoke despite its flaws, as a WHOLE, is good <3
Sun and Moon: MAJOR artstyle change which didn't go down well with some people, esp Ash's design. Also as a tone and structure this series was vastly different from other series before it, especially XY. So people who didn't like the tone wouldn't like it at all and people who could enjoy the SoL element would love what this series had to offer

Black and White: Ash was turned into a noob, poor writing choices when it came to ash and battling strats, the team plasma plot being dropped due to earthquakes and B2W2, the companions not being as likable

At the end of the day every series has its flaws but these two series were very jarring when they first premiered. For BW it boils down to lost potential and poor writing choices, for SM it boils down to a new take on Pokémon and a major shift in tone and themes which understandably wasn't for everyone
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Probably because of Satoshi's amateur personality in BW in particular, as well as his comedic persona in SM. It didn't help that SM had questionable animation and few major battles for the first two years of its run: it seemed like all the important battles [not counting Grand Trials] got shoved into that last year of the series at the Alola League in particular.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I'm not part of that statistic. I do like both seasons. They have their fair share of qualities and defects.

I place BW a little bit higher than SM but I still think they were good and far from being as bad as some people make them to be.
 

cricketlaxwolvesbandy

Currently watching the entire Pokémon anime
BW: Ash was soft reset from a series that he exceeded in, plus he acted like a noob. His companions were unlikeable and the majority of the series had to be rewritten, Ash's team was way too big and weak and didn't have really any memorable Pokémon aside from Oshawott and Krookodile.
SM: sigh Ash was again dummied down from his best iteration yet in XY. He was constantly being made the buttmonkey and their was too much slapstick which killed the series. Add in the fact that they were way less battles and Ash had to go to school and he had so many companions that it was hard to focus on them all. And oh yeah, the art style change. THAT.
 

AznKei

Scary 16th note crossovers @ 190BPM! X_X
It's mostly how Ash is handled according to his fans in both series and I think PJ would be up there as well once it's over with how they think Goh took the spotlights away from him.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
At the end of the day every series has its flaws but these two series were very jarring when they first premiered.
To elaborate on this, BW came off DP, where Ash just refined his training style by fire and defeated two Legendaries...only to forget how to throw a pokeball.

SM, meanwhile, came from XY. XY was arguably the biggest "coming of age" story for all the main characters...and then SM put Ash in school with a father figure, which is jarring at best. Even if you love it, you gotta admit it's just weirdly placed to take Ash from the "adult" of the group to making him more of a child than he's ever been (not in actions so much as what they wanted him to be, hence the father figure and school).
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Anipoke despite its flaws, as a WHOLE, is good <3
To elaborate on this, BW came off DP, where Ash just refined his training style by fire and defeated two Legendaries...only to forget how to throw a pokeball.

SM, meanwhile, came from XY. XY was arguably the biggest "coming of age" story for all the main characters...and then SM put Ash in school with a father figure, which is jarring at best. Even if you love it, you gotta admit it's just weirdly placed to take Ash from the "adult" of the group to making him more of a child than he's ever been (not in actions so much as what they wanted him to be, hence the father figure and school).
Yea they went with a different direction for Ash, a shift which is why many ppl still dislike SM to this day. Atleast they still had him remain competent even if he was the subject of slapstick humor in other things
You see all the controversial series no matter whether they are good or bad are controversial if they are a massive tone change from a previous series, which SM and BW were, unlike other series, where XY and BW had great continuity thanks to BW finale, and PJ which feels like a spiritual successor to SM
 

Sham

Twitter= the origin of racism -mods 2021
I don’t particularly dislike SM (just wouldn’t rewatch ANYTIME soon) and I like BW but I can name gripes.

. SM had the biggest cast to date but did dust with it. We are two years removed from this saga and I still question why Mallow was animated every episode.

.Too many “fake outs” (Lillie getting an Ice Stone, implying Mallow would have more focus episodes training Shaymin and Lana catching Dewpider comes to mind). I’m not one to care about issues like this but with the trajectory of the series not providing a lot of focus on the classmates; specifically the girls... it just seemed cruel.

.Brock and Misty’s second return... just no

.More sectors of Alola not being explored. I don’t mind being stuck in school island but I wish more attention was payed to Alola’s scenery. We barely seen Po Town.

For me I disliked BW’s battles quite a lot actually. I’m not sure how but the battles seemed pretty stale and cardboard tbh
 
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Tbh I haven't watched much of BW anime as much as other series, but from what I've heard, it seems like people didn't like BW anime because they just outright made him look like a rookie, which is even more triggering considering that he was able to reach to the semi finals in the sinnoh league.

Tbh I like SM anime a lot, it's my second favorite series after XY/XYZ. But the reason why it is disliked is kinda obvious, it's definitely because of the art style and mire precisely Ash's design in SM anime. But I really found that quite cool and funny, it's also a thing which somehow makes it different from other series.
 
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Tabasco Boshi

★★★★★
Because people like coherent stories and since the end of the continuity era (OS-DP) the writing has been all over the place. And people also like consequences, which don't exist anymore. Ash helped save the world in XY (and was broadcasted) and nothing happened. Ash has won a league and nothing happened.

Meanwhile, he gets TOP 8 in Johto and freaking Max had seen the battles and knew him. Won the Battle Frontier and that storyline carried over the following series with his rival. The story flowed. Consequences existed.
 

Ragnarok4

Visiting Galar ...
Yea they went with a different direction for Ash, a shift which is why many ppl still dislike SM to this day. Atleast they still had him remain competent even if he was the subject of slapstick humor in other things
You see all the controversial series no matter whether they are good or bad are controversial if they are a massive tone change from a previous series, which SM and BW were, unlike other series, where XY and BW had great continuity thanks to BW finale, and PJ which feels like a spiritual successor to SM
SM grew on me in 2020

dont like Ash art style but those are superficial things
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Because people like coherent stories and since the end of the continuity era (OS-DP) the writing has been all over the place. And people also like consequences, which don't exist anymore. Ash helped save the world in XY (and was broadcasted) and nothing happened. Ash has won a league and nothing happened.

Meanwhile, he gets TOP 8 in Johto and freaking Max had seen the battles and knew him. Won the Battle Frontier and that storyline carried over the following series with his rival. The story flowed. Consequences existed.

SM was consistent with continuity and Ash's experience, meanwhile BW was consistent only with continuity and XY only with Ash's experience
 

Tabasco Boshi

★★★★★
SM was consistent with continuity and Ash's experience, meanwhile BW was consistent only with continuity and XY only with Ash's experience
Continuity is much more than referencing past events every once in a while. What kills consistency are things like Tracey suddenly disappearing from the map, ignoring most of Ash's old Pokémon for over a decade, Ash not using the counter shield tactic he developed during DP. Heck, Goh literally fought Flygon using a tactic Ash developed in XY and he didn't even know what was going on.

And don't even get me started with Team Rocket being perfectly fine to keep their Pokémon from OS to DP to suddenly having to give them away. Or how the gacha machine is something that not only kills the TRio's characters but is also completely stupid in-universe, since that's not the kind of weapon Giovanni would ever create. Completely out of character stuff.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Continuity is much more than referencing past events every once in a while. What kills consistency are things like Tracey suddenly disappearing from the map, ignoring most of Ash's old Pokémon for over a decade, Ash not using the counter shield tactic he developed during DP. Heck, Goh literally fought Flygon using a tactic Ash developed in XY and he didn't even know what was going on.

And don't even get me started with Team Rocket being perfectly fine to keep their Pokémon from OS to DP to suddenly having to give them away. Or how the gacha machine is something that not only kills the TRio's characters but is also completely stupid in-universe, since that's not the kind of weapon Giovanni would ever create. Completely out of character stuff.

Tracey appeared during BW's last opening and Brock used counter shield during SM.
 

Tabasco Boshi

★★★★★
Tracey appeared during BW's last opening and Brock used counter shield during SM.
Well, if you want to count the openings, Charizard battled Reshiram and Ash caught Grubbin. And about that reference, as I said, references aren't everything. It's staying in character.

But my bad, I probably mixed many things that weren't related to this particular thread.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
SM I can’t explain as I never watched it before but am guessing it’s the art style change which I personally don’t mind. BW I think is more because of how much the tsunami changed the plans for the anime especially with Team Plasma and N, how little Iris and Cilan grew as characters (Iris not so much because she did grow a bit but Cilan never did), TRio reverting back to their old selves which would have been fine if it weren’t literally halfway through the series as them being serious and competent antagonists not solely focused in grabbing Pikachu was a welcome change, and finally Cameron ruining the Unova League.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Many here have said why general audience hates both series but for me one of those reasons is incoherent to hate which is SM artstyle. I mean it's fine. I heard people said that SM art style is like Steven Universe art style or Ben 10 reboot which made me confused. It's much better than that. When it comes to everything else for me those are just one of many factors that take into account if series is bad( from 0-5.4/10) or good 5.5-10/10) and by detailed examination, both series are good but with many flaws. Now by good it can mean being OK, good, great, amazing and SM is OK for me. BW is somewhat good. Yes I do find BW > SM. BW's main problems that many people factor which are Iris and Cilan and Ash being rookie; for me first one is not a problem since I see no problem with Iris and Cilan. I like them. As of second yes it's a problem which is one of few reasons why BW is not on AG level for me. Then there is Unova league which is also main problem which I agree especially last battle. As of SM which I already said about one of main problems other main problems I agree but those are just one of the factors( even main ones): Comedy is bad, there are some good parts liek Bewear and Lana's one liners but mostly is over-exaggerated faces and Jojo faces and those Sam's puns which I cringe on a thought. Slice of life episodes which have minimal action or no action are for me boring or bad and there are handful of them from what I watched. What can I say I am shonen guy. I like action: Naruto,DBZ, Jason Bourne, John Wick.

Things that made me like BW and SM into being OK and somewhat good respectively are: for SM: Good Lusamine arc, ok Necrozma arc, Gladion and Guzma, Ash vs Kukui, some Alola league battles, Misty and Brock return and their battles, Kahuna and Totem battles, Pikachu vs Tapu Koko rivalry, Ash vs Gladion other rival battles, Lillie and Kiawe, Lana was Ok. Sophocles and Mallow are just there IMO.
For BW: great tournaments, Ash catching lots of Pokemon even though they were shafted, Dawn return,TRio were great and TR arc was good, TP arc was good, some gym battles were good, Ash vs Stephan and Ash vs Trip in league, Ash vs Trip's third battle and JC battle, Iris and Cilan, N, Charizard returned.
 
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