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Why do people dislike Black and White and Sun and Moon animes?

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
Also, the tsunami and I'm thinking the B2W2 announcement (staff was likely told in advance) really screwed up the plot the writers had going. It wasn't terrible, I think it just bit off way more than it could chew.

Now, you are into something.

People keep saying "it was the tsunami™!!!1!!!!!" (and, unless I'm misremembering it was an earthquake at the time) but it probably wasn't that because episodes are scripted and planned in advance thus aside from episodes being postponned "indefinitely" (TP vs TR) and some messing around with episode order, things were more or less on the rhytim they were supposed to be.

What probably screwed them up was the whole thing with BW2 since the changes it brought, specially on the Team Plasma front really screwed up everything they planned doing with it. So I'd say it was less about very unfortunate real-life events and more about GF suddenly deciding to go bold and do something new and surprising thus screwing everything the anime's plans.

On a minor scale, I'd say the backlash over the changes on the TRio played something. It's either the thought that it would lead to a backlash or it not working as they inteded. Maybe issues with the VAs since they appear to have not been content with it.

Tomiyasu's version of Ash in general tends to treat him more like a child than ever before, while all others treat him as more of an adult, so it makes it really tiring to hear this excuse used to explain away SM's problems, when it really doesn't.

I wouldn't use "adult" as I don't think it fits. I wouldn't even use "mature" as some people (not you, by the way) like to say either.

I'd say more as the leader of the team or at least as a kid who learned a few things and has to help his friends. He's still a kid for all that matter, it was just the writting focusing on his role model/ideal archtype while SM went with the "crazy for Pokémon", "hot blooded hero", "excited kid" angle. Both valid and fitting Ash's characterization across the years.
 

Morax

King of heroes
In SM's defense, while they did alter Ash, they did at least try to give his lack of seniority more excuse than in BW, where he was outright reset. In SM he is still one of the most competent battlers, however Alola revolves so much around non-battling traditions that he is a fish out of water in many regards. This was true in XY to some degree, but for the large part Kalos had nearly everything fit to his agenda and going his way so of course he'd look more competent.

I actually kinda liked how SM put him outside his comfort zone straight after XY, forcing him to do things unconventionally or in some cases put central focus on one of his friends. Stuff like the AF arc did a decent job showing Ash could be accidentally one track and complacent about his goals and way of doing things at the expense of his companions, while still showing he meant well and wanted to fix things when he slipped up, something I feel they glossed over and never really looked into properly in XY.

I think after DP they were trying to gradually work a trial and error with Ash really, trying to find a middle ground of him still being a flawed and entertaining character without losing all his former development. BW and XY leaned too much to one extreme, while SM and PJ are trying to slowly work out the happy medium.
If doing mundane things and daily chores is your definition of "out of comfort zone" then i'd rather have Ash be in his comfort zone and focus on his goal instead. And for the record i don't hate those fish-out-of-water episode where the main character is pushed into something unfamiliar but it's only interesting for a while. Even dragon ball had an episode about goku learning to drive but that's one out of hundred. What I'm saying is SM focused too much on those mundane things and in the process forgot what pokemon is at it's core, a sports anime.

And no, the alola league is not a microcosm of SuMo. 17 well written episodes don't make up for a hundred and twenty nine episodes of snoozefest.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
If doing mundane things and daily chores is your definition of "out of comfort zone" then i'd rather have Ash be in his comfort zone and focus on his goal instead. And for the record i don't hate those fish-out-of-water episode where the main character is pushed into something unfamiliar but it's only interesting for a while. Even dragon ball had an episode about goku learning to drive but that's one out of hundred. What I'm saying is SM focused too much on those mundane things and in the process forgot what pokemon is at it's core, a sports anime.

And no, the alola league is not a microcosm of SuMo. 17 well written episodes don't make up for a hundred and twenty nine episodes of snoozefest.
Ash was focusing in his goal during SM, but also learning about the culture of the region. And you can say the same of any other series with as much filler as SM.
Also, Pokémon never was a sports anime, it is a Kodomo anime, and the closest genre is probably adventures.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Learning the "culture" of the region from his classroom seat.

...See, there's a reason why the games involve a great deal of exploration, so we don't do what Ash strangely took a fascination with in SM.
I mean we don’t actually have to go to Japan to learn about Japanese culture do we? Sure hands on experience is probably the best but Ash spending a good amount of time in class doesn’t prohibit him from learning Alola’s culture.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
I mean we don’t actually have to go to Japan to learn about Japanese culture do we? Sure hands on experience is probably the best but Ash spending a good amount of time in class doesn’t prohibit him from learning Alola’s culture.
We're talking in-game mechanics, not real life mechanics here. He literally had the world at his oyster but then decided to siddown.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
But the anime isn’t a reflection of the games and if the anime not being like the games is a problem then there is a laundry list of things to complain about more important than Ash going to school.

THIS, the anime is just an adaptation to the games, it should not be the exact same as the games, that could be even worse and more boring because the story of the games are also not the greatest most of the time.
 

Morax

King of heroes
But the anime isn’t a reflection of the games
So why did it butcher the aether plot instead of improving upon it? Trying something different is not an excuse for bad writing.
Ash was focusing in his goal during SM, but also learning about the culture of the region
NO. His goal was sidelined for those "learning about the culture" episodes. World building is nice but the problem with SuMo is that it's utterly boring.
Boy, the anime story for Sun & Moon was so...!

...So...!

...Er, so...!

...What story did it even have.
It was about taking a step back and enjoying the small things but SuMo did a piss poor job at it.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
So why did it butcher the aether plot instead of improving upon it? Trying something different is not an excuse for bad writing.

NO. His goal was sidelined for those "learning about the culture" episodes. World building is nice but the problem with SuMo is that it's utterly boring.

It was about taking a step back and enjoying the small things but SuMo did a piss poor job at it.
They improve the Aether plot, adapting it to SM topics about the family, which is why Lusamine isn't evil as in the games, it was good writing.
His goal never was sidelined, he was constantly training during a lot of episodes with Kiawe.
Which is not a step back, it was a step in the correct direction about not doing the same and the same during 20 years.
 

k6666

Pikachu Fan
im not part of the statistic , i love both series as the way they are, ash character in every serires after DP didnt really affect my judgment is the series bad or good , after he faill catch pokemon in first bw series, i know that he will stay forever so it doest really matter , i still rooting for him to win teh whole thing and continue the adventure

if there any thing that i dislike
BW : bad ash pokemon screentime :( , there is no rivalrly conclusionin the end of saga
SM : lack of battle , many jokes is kinda cringey
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
They improve the Aether plot, adapting it to SM topics about the family, which is why Lusamine isn't evil as in the games, it was good writing.
When was the game ever not about family in the first place? And that said, even if it adapted it to a theme of family, the arc had such a narrow focus on the Aether family that any other family might as well not have existed (save for the shotgun wedding that came out of nowhere).

Plus I hesitate to call that arc good writing when Lillie literally has 4 years of trauma erased just because she got her memories back through no agency of her own...Plus offscreen reconciliation of the major crux.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Her agency was actively seeking Cosmog and Ash to help regain her history. Also I’m not sure how Lillie “had fours years of trauma erased” when the entire point was she didn’t have her tramua erased. No long being scared of Sivally because she REMEMBERED he didn’t attack her isn’t erasing trauma and we see that the very next episode when she actively screams when Nihilego comes close to her and Lusamine sacrifices herself. Lillie requesting Cosmog and actively exploring Faba’s lab to find the truth is through her own agency period.
She didn't seek Ash and Cosmog, though. They were just kinda talking and Ash suggested using Cosmog for the purpose, not Lillie; she just went along with it. But in either case, Lillie literally just hung there and was attacked and boom, memories back and suddenly she regains the ability to touch Pokemon. That's what I mean by trauma erased. Maybe she was scared of Nihilego, but it didn't matter 4 episodes later.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
She didn't seek Ash and Cosmog, though. They were just kinda talking and Ash suggested using Cosmog for the purpose, not Lillie; she just went along with it. But in either case, Lillie literally just hung there and was attacked and boom, memories back and suddenly she regains the ability to touch Pokemon. That's what I mean by trauma erased. Maybe she was scared of Nihilego, but it didn't matter 4 episodes later.
Lillie actively participating in it is still her agency. Maybe a better word is she didn’t originally plan on doing it but it was definitely agency. Her memories coming back was a result of exposure therapy. It’s been proven that being exposed to your anxiety source can help you overcome your anxiety and reduce your state of distress. And like I said if Lillie understood the circumstance of Silvally rescuing her, what reason is she to be scared of him logically? A huge chunck of her fear is the fear of the unknown. She doesn’t know why she’s afraid of Pokémon so she attaches the fear to every Pokémon because she can’t quite pinpoint where it’s coming from. It’s not “boom she’s healed” it’s “she’s able to think logically now and handle things accordingly “. Also you keep moving the goal post. She was scared of Nihilego and therefor her trauma wasn’t erased as I said.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Also it’s just straight up ignoring the numerous episode dedicated to Lillie trying to touch Pokémon so the statement is just factually inapt.
That wouldn't be an issue if the episodes carried over.

But they were never meaningful to the conclusion. They still made Lillie scream before touching Pokemon. She always had the same reaction. She would still touch Pokemon in the end. But all that would be forgotten in the next episode. She will scream again. Just to milk a gag. Lillie made progression in those episodes, but they were strangely forgotten by the staff.

So when Lillie makes no meaningful progress (she does actually, but the writers willfully ignore it milk a gag in the next episode) in those numerous episodes, and then suddenly touches Pokemon after the incident with Silvally, then it raises questions about what those numerous episodes even amounted to since the only sense of progression is in Mission : Total Recall instead of being distributed throughout out the series.

And it still doesn't explain the reason of getting over her fear of Pokemon. She found out the source, good. How is every bit of reluctance she had about touching Pokemon gone in a second ?

You can't tell a war veteran suffering from PTSD how it's not actually real and he was just hallucinating, then have him to polish his guns first thing in the morning. Then pull out their console and start playing Call Of Duty. It's still a very long process to get over your phobia.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
That wouldn't be an issue if the episodes carried over.

But they were never meaningful to the conclusion. They still made Lillie scream before touching Pokemon. She always had the same reaction. She would still touch Pokemon in the end. But all that would be forgotten in the next episode. She will scream again. Just to milk a gag. Lillie made progression in those episodes, but they were strangely forgotten by the staff.

So when Lillie makes no meaningful progress (she does actually, but the writers willfully ignore it milk a gag in the next episode) in those numerous episodes, and then suddenly touches Pokemon after the incident with Silvally, then it raises questions about what those numerous episodes even amounted to since the only sense of progression is in Mission : Total Recall instead of being distributed throughout out the series.

And it still doesn't explain the reason of getting over her fear of Pokemon. She found out the source, good. How is every bit of reluctance she had about touching Pokemon gone in a second ?

You can't tell a war veteran suffering from PTSD how it's not actually real and he was just hallucinating, then have him to polish his guns first thing in the morning. Then pull out their console and start playing Call Of Duty. It's still a very long process to get over your phobia.
Okay so a couple of things. This a show not a dissertation on mental health. However since you bring up real life examples. Not everyone has the same cognitive mind and because of this you can’t compare how people handle trauma vs how others handle it. We are all different therefor handle situations differently. Like I said sometimes having a fear is just simply due to not having enough information on a situation. Comparing a war veteran to this cartoon character also doesn’t make any sense because one involves an association with a real actual event and the other one is simply dealing with a misconstrued memory. Her touching Pokémon episodes clearly meant something as she obviously touches Pikachu and Snowy after their respective episodes bonding with Lillie. Again you guys are just saying things that didn’t happen.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Okay so a couple of things. This a show not a dissertation on mental health. However since you bring up real life examples. Not everyone has the same cognitive mind and because of this you can’t compare how people handle trauma vs how others handle it. We are all different therefor handle situations differently. Like I said sometimes having a fear is just simply due to not having enough information on a situation. Comparing a war veteran to this cartoon character also doesn’t make any sense because one involves an association with a real actual event and the other one is simply dealing with a misconstrued memory.

I understand. But that is the exact reason for my distaste. Having seen someone experience a similar suffering, I can't think of showing her getting her memory back and hugging Silvally and playing with Pokemon in the literal next episode as anything other than a misinterpretation and gross oversimplification of trauma. Especially when the above mentioned someone has had much less than such pleasurable experiences during and after their treatment.

I would have rather they didn't deal with such issues if they were going to rush it due to time constraints or whatever reasons they had. They shouldn't pick up topics and spin it their own way if the topic is a very serious issue in real life. It's not responsible or insightful.

And I think I have derailed the discussion form the point I was trying to make, but my main issue was that ultimately the episodes before Mission : Total Recall are made pointless by every consecutive episode focusing on her fear having the the same start and premise. How am I supposed to see that those episodes contributed anything when all of the meat is placed in a single episode later. It doesn't just make Aether's part of memory retrieval jarring, but also makes the earlier episode meaningless. You don't change anything to the story by not watching those episodes. They were going to change the story (or so it seemed at first), but watching the focus episodes based on her fear left me wondering why the previous episode was even made if nothing was going to change.
 
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