Why do people dislike Black and White and Sun and Moon animes?

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

It wasn't just few episodes lol. Ash's " brashness "(even distilling XY Ash's character flaws to just that is blatantly undermining his character) was something persistent in XY.

His arrogance, overly ambitious nature, and inability to see what was just in front of him was at the forefront throughout XY. Just because it all came to head in the Ash-Greninja arc and was much more clearly evident and significant there didn't mean the seeds weren't planted early in the show. See Ash's preparations for his battle with Korrina and his gym battle against Ramos.

It's funny, people always critique XY Ash for being a battle-bot when the show highlights that on purpose to comment on this aspect of his character and eventually forces him to deal with the consequences of acting that way.

My problem with the SM/BW iterations of Ash has always been that they focused on incredibly boring and uninteresting parts of Ash as character flaws. And it's not like they did something interesting with them either or made it fun to watch like OS did.

My main problem was that it didn't feel "persistent" throughout the series at all, only in specific episodes, even if it was part of his arc being built from the beginning, it felt poorly done to me, especially with how much he was hyped up and how boring I found him in fillers with such a mundane personality. I dont think XY ash is a battle not and he does have character, but it's just the most boring iteration to me compared to the others, and I don't necessarily agree with him being a Gary stu either but if someone claims XY ash is a lesser Gary stu than others, it just seems funny to me

I don't remember ash ever being depressed, insecure or power hungry in SM? Are you sure it's the same thing?

Also comic relief doesn't add depth to a character.

You really need to rewatch SM (or watch it in the first place coz many times I've seen people who haven't even watched the full series complain about it)
Ash had those character flaws you mention, esp the insecure and depressed parts. Look at the Ula ula arc

 

[Antiyonder]

This review on Youtube best explains why Black & White will remain divisive for years to come.

And better humor:-D.

 

[Morax]

You really need to rewatch SM

I've watched it twice, once while it was airing and binged it again after it was over. SM ash didn't pass through the same stages of development because both seasons had different priorities.

His anxiety in XY is a consequence of being obsessed with victory. He wasn't depressed because he wasn't strong enough but because his 'fanclub' won't look up to him anymore. They deliberately portrayed him as a stoic badass since episode 1 only to subvert it later on.

SM ash is fundamentally different character. He's not as preoccupied with his goal, is not the leader of the group, felt no responsibility or pressure of any kind and basically had nothing to prove to nobody. That's a huge contrast to XY where he had a persona to maintain.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I've watched it twice, once while it was airing and binged it again after it was over. SM ash didn't pass through the same stages of development because both seasons had different priorities.

His anxiety in XY is a consequence of being obsessed with victory. He wasn't depressed because he wasn't strong enough but because his 'fanclub' won't look up to him anymore. They deliberately portrayed him as a stoic badass since episode 1 only to subvert it later on.

SM ash is fundamentally different character. He's not as preoccupied with his goal, is not the leader of the group, felt no responsibility or pressure of any kind and basically had nothing to prove to nobody. That's a huge contrast to XY where he had a persona to maintain.

He still faced feelings like insecurity and self doubt a lot in the series, dealt with much more human stuff he didn't in the previous series, participated in other activities as well. He had his share of flaws and learnings as well, he wasn't as 1D of a character that people think he was in SM (in terms of how Ash is anyway coz he's in no way shape or form ever been much of a complicated character )

 

[Epicocity]

Sun & Moon, I think would stand the test of time and likely be vindicated for a lot of things (aside from Ash's design since Journeys showcases a superior design with bigger pupils).

Black & White... not so much. And a lot of it has to do with how they portrayed Ash overall.

This review on Youtube best explains why Black & White will remain divisive for years to come.

Ironically, having Ash win the Pokémon League and essentially be battle competent does wonders for Sun & Moon's reputation (as in I can overlook several flaws with the story if it means keeping true to Ash's character and not resetting him for some old nostalgia feels that will never be captured).

Funnily enough, I personally feel the opposite.

Through a test of time, I think the smaller cracks that exist in SM would eventually be made plain to a viewer to show a wider chasm that breaks the series. (and that Hau battle I think will always hold the distinction of the battle Ash didn't deserve to win for a lot of the fanbase)

While for BW, despite some bad angles, for a lot of long-term fans, it still felt like Pokemon to a lot of people. Even now, it appears to be going through a sort of "not that bad" phase, and it helps that XY vindicated its course a bit. Unfortunately, the current series has done little to vindicate SM for people and in fact kind of shows what SM was like to those who didn't like it now that the Alola serial numbers are filed off.

Or at least, that's my take on the general fandom perception.

 

[Morax]

He still faced feelings like insecurity and self doubt a lot in the series, dealt with much more human stuff he didn't in the previous series, participated in other activities as well. He had his share of flaws and learnings as well, he wasn't as 1D of a character that people think he was in SM (in terms of how Ash is anyway coz he's in no way shape or form ever been much of a complicated character )

Ah yes....."humane" stuff like grocery shopping, babysitting, laundry, ping-pong, baseball, karaoke, le designated genderbender episode, power rangers alola patrol delta, JOJO faces etc. Such a flawed and interesting character!! lmao

 

[DatsRight]

SM Ash was getting accustomed to normal human lives after spending so long basically free reign and journeying however he wanted.

I resent the idea that a character can never develop through comedy and slice of life elements. I do agree that SM overdone those areas and was slapdash in places but I feel like they took proper advantage of those to make the show feel more rounded. Comedy was mainly only used for running gags in XY while in SM it was used to help chemistries and pathos flourish. Compare the whole 'science is so amazing' catchphrase being used over and over to Ash actually having a synergy with Sophocles for a lot of SM and a wider variety of interactions based on how alien but interesting technology was to him, or Chespin essentially doing nothing but being a joke while only the 'serious' characters got the important bits the whole of XY to SM where guys like Rowlet could weaponise their quirks and battle just as competently as the powerhouses (said powerhouses were also allowed to have 'not so above it all' qualities to make them more three dimensional and socialise with the comedic guys in fun ways, they wouldn't DARE undermine Greninja the same way). I actually feel for a character that is allowed to make a complete fool of themselves sometimes.

In general I just think elements outside Ash's linear focus were questioned more in SM. The AF arc in particular had him realising several times one of his human friends needed proper attention and he wasn't treating it with enough tact, while elements like his 'chosen one' role or his goals after winning the league were put on the spot, with Ash being shown unsure of himself. It felt like a good follow on from XY in this regard where Ash was maybe bulking up and developing in terms of his agendas but was kept fairly complacent outside of it.

 

[U.N. Owen]

Through a test of time, I think the smaller cracks that exist in SM would eventually be made plain to a viewer to show a wider chasm that breaks the series. (and that Hau battle I think will always hold the distinction of the battle Ash didn't deserve to win for a lot of the fanbase)

It's an amazing double standard you pointed out in the fanbase. No one is willing to call out the referee in-universe over not paying close enough attention between sleep and knock out, yet people are so quick to deride this battle for being so-called undeserved.

 

[charinija]

I do not agree.

Bw was a bounce back in the anime, but the drawing techniques were good. Ash's maturity was above average.

I think Unova's pokemons in general were not good. The problem was not in the anime.

The only problem with the anime was that Snivy was wasted.

Other than that, I loved Bw.

I think Sun And Moon was nice too. I think there is a fundamental logic flaw in Sun and Moon.

He's seen a final in the Ash Kalos league. His going to pokemon school was a leap back. He was much better and more experienced than his friends.

But Sun And Moon is a good series in my opinion, even though Ash's maturity in Xy has also disappeared despite this logic mistake and quite bad at drawing.

And like Lana, she had a pokegirl that is both very cute and very troll. And I think the story can be called good.

Sun and Moon's greatest flaw is human drawings. Ash Brock and Misty were very interesting in drawing.

The bad luck of these two series is that the series that preceded them are DP and Xy Pokemon's two best series. Bw and Sm coming after two peaks were not normally liked by people.

But whatever came after XY and DP would not be liked. Because the bar was really high.

Journeys is worse than Sun And Moon in my opinion. And it will be worse than Bw with this going.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

@DatsRight and @U.N. Owen Perfectly said what I would have replied to those comments. SM is standing the test of the time lol, it's being more loved as time passes compared to what it was when it was being aired while for XY the opposite is happening
Ash Vs Hau is a battle I'm not fond of myself but it's certainly not a battle ash didn't deserve to win lol, let alone be speaking for the general fandom when claiming that
And yep, people love to devalue Ash's character development in SM, saying how he didn't have flaws or didn't develop as a character beyond a focus for comedy, when he developed plenty and was more interesting then many other iterations. Slice of life did help him develop, in a new unique way then just being battle driven

 

[DatsRight]

I guess the thing is, I always saw the Pokemon anime as based around something that was meant to be fundamentally silly and farcical. That was part of the fun. It's works better when it isn't taking itself too seriously to me, as in it CAN have poignant and deep moments but it is still revolved around a ridiculous premise that likes to make fun of itself, much like the OS was.

I think this is where XY suffered since I feel it tried to give its cogs too much dignity. Ash was still a standard gullible and reckless hero for example, but it's not interesting when nothing undermines him over it. It's also arguably where Team Rocket had most overstayed their welcome because while the series was unwilling to drop their formula as a writing short cut, barely any other element of the show meshed with their humour as the series went on, making them feel like a repetitive third wheel. Aside from the dub adding a bit more snark and meta humour, it was trying to treat the silly formula like a tight and dramatic epic, which felt a bit pretentious and like a lot of the charm was being repressed.

BW and SM meanwhile at least revelled in the cartoon atmosphere and core formula way more often. BW's biggest exception was still TR but at least there they had the excuse of them being legitimately serious bad guys for once, and when they changed back to clowns they were used properly with the rest of the cast (to the point BW and SM are about the only series where TR don't run out of steam long before the series is over).

 

[Sonnas]

I guess the thing is, I always saw the Pokemon anime as based around something that was meant to be fundamentally silly and farcical. That was part of the fun. It's works better when it isn't taking itself too seriously to me, as in it CAN have poignant and deep moments but it is still revolved around a ridiculous premise that likes to make fun of itself, much like the OS was.

I think this is where XY suffered since I feel it tried to give its cogs too much dignity. Ash was still a standard gullible and reckless hero for example, but it's not interesting when nothing undermines him over it. It's also arguably where Team Rocket had most overstayed their welcome because while the series was unwilling to drop their formula as a writing short cut, barely any other element of the show meshed with their humour as the series went on, making them feel like a repetitive third wheel. Aside from the dub adding a bit more snark and meta humour, it was trying to treat the silly formula like a tight and dramatic epic, which felt a bit pretentious and like a lot of the charm was being repressed.

BW and SM meanwhile at least revelled in the cartoon atmosphere and core formula way more often. BW's biggest exception was still TR but at least there they had the excuse of them being legitimately serious bad guys for once, and when they changed back to clowns they were used properly with the rest of the cast (to the point BW and SM are about the only series where TR don't run out of steam long before the series is over).

I feel like your generalizing XY as thinking it's all seriousness and not thinking that it had its silly and farcical moments.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Ah yes....."humane" stuff like grocery shopping, babysitting, laundry, ping-pong, baseball, karaoke, le designated genderbender episode, power rangers alola patrol delta, JOJO faces etc. Such a flawed and interesting character!! lmao

Yes, characters who are treated like almost perfect persons (the only Ash iteration near to that is XY Ash) are not interesting characters. That is why people above called him Gary Stu.

 

[Evstike]

I couldn't stand XY because of how Ash was such a Gary Stu. Every time I saw him, I prayed that he would do laundry or go shopping. That would have made him such a compelling and flawed character.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I feel like your generalizing XY as thinking it's all seriousness and not thinking that it had its silly and farcical moments.

I don't think he's saying XY doesn't have it's silly and facial moments, it certainly does, he's just comparing it with other series in anipoke in that seriousness regard

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I couldn't stand XY because of how Ash was such a Gary Stu. Every time I saw him, I prayed that he would do laundry or go shopping. That would have made him such a compelling and flawed character.

Again missing the point of what we are arguing about why one iteration of ash isn't as likable then the other to some of us

 

[Leonhart]

I've watched it twice, once while it was airing and binged it again after it was over. SM ash didn't pass through the same stages of development because both seasons had different priorities.

His anxiety in XY is a consequence of being obsessed with victory. He wasn't depressed because he wasn't strong enough but because his 'fanclub' won't look up to him anymore. They deliberately portrayed him as a stoic badass since episode 1 only to subvert it later on.

SM ash is fundamentally different character. He's not as preoccupied with his goal, is not the leader of the group, felt no responsibility or pressure of any kind and basically had nothing to prove to nobody. That's a huge contrast to XY where he had a persona to maintain.

I do agree that he felt like a different character in SM compared to XY, similar to how he felt like a different character in early BW compared to DP. I personally dislike the inconsistencies in his personality, especially since it's never really explained and we're just supposed to come up with our own explanations for why he acts somewhere differently from saga to saga. In any other anime it would be a sign of growth, but of course he doesn't actually age.

 

[RafaSceptile]

SM ash is fundamentally different character. He's not as preoccupied with his goal

But he is, he was constantly training during the series, and when he finally won the league, he asked himself what's next for him, showing preocupation about his goal.

is not the leader of the group

He was not, because he is not a perfect person who everyone should admire. Each of the SM cast had their proper skills and flaws, who is something that most of the time we don't have with XY Ash.

felt no responsibility or pressure of any kind and basically had nothing to prove to nobody

He had two good developmented rivals during the series, so he had something to prove to someone, and he did it after winning against both of them.

 

[UltimateNinja]

I do agree that he felt like a different character in SM compared to XY, similar to how he felt like a different character in early BW compared to DP. I personally dislike the inconsistencies in his personality, especially since it's never really explained and we're just supposed to come up with our own explanations for why he acts somewhere differently from saga to saga. In any other anime it would be a sign of growth, but of course he doesn't actually age.

This is the reason why SM would've been a lot better (and better received) if they actually replaced Ash by the end of DP already or by the end of XY. Imo the whole school thing just doesn't work out for me when he was already competing in six leagues and almost became champion.

 

[DatsRight]

He was not, because he is not a perfect person who everyone should admire. Each of the SM cast had their proper skills and flaws, who is something that most of the time we don't have with XY Ash.

I feel like something key to remember with SM was that Alola wasn't very battle centric, which was Ash's comfort zone. Ash was an ace in that field in XY and he still was in SM, but he was in a situation where he couldn't just go where he pleased and just battled anymore, he had to try things he had zero experience with, thus he seemed like a fish out of water a lot of the time.

A recurrent theme in SM is that even someone seasoned in one field is going to look completely out of their game doing something they've never done before. The league culminated that, it was the thing Ash was good at, but half the students still had barely any experience in, so similarly could only give it the old college try.