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Why do people dislike Black and White and Sun and Moon animes?

Sonnas

Well-Known Member
I guess it sorta played amusingly off the fact that the protagonists were so used to the usual beats of the formula pacing them and keeping them in control that they kinda bungled and struggled when it came to actually flowing a story on their own without the 'training wheels'. I think if it took itself more seriously it might have fell badly, but the fact it was played intentionally comically and awkward a lot of the time made it kinda of endearing. They're trying. :p
It's sort of like those odd cartoons where the laws of physics AREN'T bending over to make sure Bugs Bunny wins anymore. It's interesting to see how a character that's used to being a winner enforced by premise responds to no longer being able to just run on automatic, even if maybe SM maybe shouldn't have done them quite as often since that itself can end up a formula in time.
So your saying that you just want all of pokemon or just SM to just be devoid of serious moments and just be all goofy? Because you lost me at the first sentence.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
The one major downside of Alola I see is that it is the only region that never got a movie set in it. Galar still has time to get a movie set in it but there is no hope for Alola at this point in time.
I remember being upset that the SM classmates didn't get to appear in any of the movies, and a popular rebuttal was that Satoshi's companions rarely do much in the post-AG movies, anyway. But even so, I would've preferred seeing them with Satoshi in the movies instead of seeing a bunch of one-off characters that will never have any other appearances in the future.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
So your saying that you just want all of pokemon or just SM to just be devoid of serious moments and just be all goofy? Because you lost me at the first sentence.
Eh, no but what I mean is how it handled the separation from formula wasn't taken too seriously. It's not like say, XY Ash who was still treated like a competent ace despite falling for even the most pathetic of TR scams because 'formula says so'. The SM kids were meant to be a bit bungling for the large part.

Besides that SM had its share of dramatic or contemplative episodes which handled this more carefully, in fact I could argue the less formulaic approach allowed them to do such undiluted.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Eh, no but what I mean is how it handled the separation from formula wasn't taken too seriously. It's not like say, XY Ash who was still treated like a competent ace despite falling for even the most pathetic of TR scams because 'formula says so'. The SM kids were meant to be a bit bungling for the large part.

Besides that SM had its share of dramatic or contemplative episodes which handled this more carefully, in fact I could argue the less formulaic approach allowed them to do such undiluted.
Speaking of which, it's always irked me that even in sagas where Satoshi is portrayed as more competent and slightly more intelligent than others, he still tends to fall for very obvious Rocket-dan schemes. I know that it's done for plot purposes, but it's still very irritating.
 

Sonnas

Well-Known Member
I remember being upset that the SM classmates didn't get to appear in any of the movies, and a popular rebuttal was that Satoshi's companions rarely do much in the post-AG movies, anyway. But even so, I would've preferred seeing them with Satoshi in the movies instead of seeing a bunch of one-off characters that will never have any other appearances in the future.
But why have the companions there if they don't do anything for the plot other than just be there? Unless the writers wanted the SM characters be in the plot.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Speaking of which, it's always irked me that even in sagas where Satoshi is portrayed as more competent and slightly more intelligent than others, he still tends to fall for very obvious Rocket-dan schemes. I know that it's done for plot purposes, but it's still very irritating.
I think AG dabbled with it (eg. the first few episodes or the Ralts one) but still only the odd time, I think it's for the simple fact that with a character not going through the motions of the formula it becomes harder to write, and thus as the old plots got more lethargic they just stopped trying in that regard.

Actually the most common to have the twerps savvy to TR was the very first series, but that was when the formula was still fresh and had character chemistries involved. Similarly TR were allowed to put a not-completely-one-sided fight more often or just skip battling altogether for a more unique faceoff based on the episode premise. Stuff like this gradually became limited to blue moon instances the writers could be bothered.

BW and SM had long breaks from the formula, and maybe because of this 'cool down' their last season or so actually tended to have decent episodes following the TR formula, even if the whole thing with the twerps being super gullible remains. Decolores Adventures was unusual in how TR remained semi competent until the very end of the series, even getting a reasonable 'final showdown', while Ultra Legends went back a bit to old staples like the twerps being more jaded and snarky around TR or them attempting 'trial and error' with schemes over the course or two or three episodes (eg. their mech in the second Kanto two parter, or their attempts to capture the mythicals). Compare to this to series like XY in between where the 'TR tries to catch Pikachu' formula had run out of steam AGES before.
 
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Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Speaking of which, it's always irked me that even in sagas where Satoshi is portrayed as more competent and slightly more intelligent than others, he still tends to fall for very obvious Rocket-dan schemes. I know that it's done for plot purposes, but it's still very irritating.
Considering even characters like Cynthia don't recognize them in disguise, I genuinely think they're easily recognizable for us in the audience but in-universe they're meant to be very much foolproof disguises.
 

ShinyKyogre670

New Member
BW is bad because they made Ash an amnesiac at battle. It was a soft reboot that made him lose his battling skills, Pikachu lost to a water type in the series. However, towards the end, it got better. SM was great. Ash vs Kukui was the best battle ever. People hate it because of its art style r being a step down from XY, Pokemon's Shounen and Ash's Mature Saga
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Considering even characters like Cynthia don't recognize them in disguise, I genuinely think they're easily recognizable for us in the audience but in-universe they're meant to be very much foolproof disguises.
You mean to tell me in-universe they manage to believably make a Meowth standing on a Wobbuffet resemble a human? XD
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
BW is bad because they made Ash an amnesiac at battle. It was a soft reboot that made him lose his battling skills, Pikachu lost to a water type in the series. However, towards the end, it got better. SM was great. Ash vs Kukui was the best battle ever. People hate it because of its art style r being a step down from XY, Pokemon's Shounen and Ash's Mature Saga
No, people dislike SM because the series was completely aimless. Basically Ash and friends doing nothing until the final year.

Plenty of shows are popular even if their artstyle is not good, and SM isn't one of them.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
No, people dislike SM because the series was completely aimless. Basically Ash and friends doing nothing until the final year.

Plenty of shows are popular even if their artstyle is not good, and SM isn't one of them.
And plenty of shows are popular even when their characters doing nothing, and not even until the final year.
 

Evstike

Take me back to peak pokemon
Then is not because of their characters doing nothing, people complained much more about the artstyle since the first trailer until these days
There are still complaints and criticisms of SM, so if people aren't complaining about the artstyle anymore, what are they complaining about?
RafaSceptile said:
And plenty of shows are popular even when their characters doing nothing, and not even until the final year.
The thing with other shows is that most of them don't have many other iterations to be compared to. Pokemon doesn't have that luxury and each series can be compared to the others. When you have characters like Ash, May, Dawn, and Serena, they all had goals that they were working towards that drove them and could be measured. The SM cast doesn't have that. Even SM Ash didn't care about trials until they were right in front of his face.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
There are still complaints and criticisms of SM, so if people aren't complaining about the artstyle anymore, what are they complaining about?

The thing with other shows is that most of them don't have many other iterations to be compared to. Pokemon doesn't have that luxury and each series can be compared to the others. When you have characters like Ash, May, Dawn, and Serena, they all had goals that they were working towards that drove them and could be measured. The SM cast doesn't have that. Even SM Ash didn't care about trials until they were right in front of his face.
Yes, that's why I ranked May, Dawn and Serena over the SM girls on my list about the best Pokegirls even if some of them I don't like that much as Lillie or Lana (sorry Mallow)
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Then is not because of their characters doing nothing, people complained much more about the artstyle since the first trailer until these days
So what? I disliked SM artstyle at first too, but I didn't mind it. SM artstyle, for some reason, was only intentionally terrible for past characters, other characters were tolerable(other than Sophocles, because he is naturally ugly). I tried to watch SM for a year and a half, until I realized that the series was going nowhere. Will you try to argue "muh you just don't like it because of artstyle muh"?
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
So what? I disliked SM artstyle at first too, but I didn't mind it. SM artstyle, for some reason, was only intentionally terrible for past characters, other characters were tolerable(other than Sophocles, because he is naturally ugly). I tried to watch SM for a year and a half, until I realized that the series was going nowhere. Will you try to argue "muh you just don't like it because of artstyle muh"?
Why is he naturally ugly? Because he's fat? Meanie
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
(other than Sophocles, because he is naturally ugly)
Actually, I think he was the finest. Maybe because since his design is somewhat meant to be cartoony, it fit really well with SM's style.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
So what? I disliked SM artstyle at first too, but I didn't mind it. SM artstyle, for some reason, was only intentionally terrible for past characters, other characters were tolerable(other than Sophocles, because he is naturally ugly). I tried to watch SM for a year and a half, until I realized that the series was going nowhere. Will you try to argue "muh you just don't like it because of artstyle muh"?
The series had a proper conclusion as well as the previous series
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Speaking of which, it's always irked me that even in sagas where Satoshi is portrayed as more competent and slightly more intelligent than others, he still tends to fall for very obvious Rocket-dan schemes. I know that it's done for plot purposes, but it's still very irritating.
Journeys best series then coz ash actually was suspicious in one of the recent episodes :p
 
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