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Why do people think Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh?

Soniman

Break the Limit
He regressed in every other series, no matter what anyone says. If not, how do you explain his various losses? I would even go so far as to say he fought better in AG/BF than D&P.

Slight regression is what happens when you make a pact with yourself to start fresh every new region but people seem to always forget that fact. And no offense to AG Ash but at least in terms of battle know-how and strategizing Ash in DP was quite an improvement which makes sense as that's how it's supposed to go anyway,
 

Benny™

Best Wishes Do Come True Under The Sun & Moon
Slight regression is what happens when you make a pact with yourself to start fresh every new region but people seem to always forget that fact. And no offense to AG Ash but at least in terms of battle know-how and strategizing Ash in DP was quite an improvement which makes sense as that's how it's supposed to go anyway,

I'm not even talking about starting fresh, I'm looking at some of his battles, some of which I've brought up in the past.

Ash had decent strategy against Paul, but against Tobias, it got thrown out the window just so he wouldn't beat the league. All he really relied on there was brute force - so I point fingers at D&P for his reset, not BW. That's why I say he was better in AG/BF - even in Johto, he wasn't stronger, of course, but he was more impressive (to me) because he relied less on moves like Counter shield and more on natural strategy.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
I'm not even talking about starting fresh, I'm looking at some of his battles, some of which I've brought up in the past.

Ash had decent strategy against Paul, but against Tobias, it got thrown out the window just so he wouldn't beat the league. All he really relied on there was brute force - so I point fingers at D&P for his reset, not BW. That's why I say he was better in AG/BF - even in Johto, he wasn't stronger, of course, but he was more impressive (to me) because he relied less on moves like Counter shield and more on natural strategy.

So you blame the series where he defeated two legendaries at the end on his regression, and NOT the series where he lost to a fresh Snivy in the first episode? That makes sense..

Also playing it by ear and reacting to whatever the opponent does isn't "natural strategy", when he did that with Whitney he got his *** handed to him, and when he actually thought of a strategy he managed to beat her Miltank. And then then there's clair who was established being out of Ash's league with his current roster, so he had to call in Charizard and Snorlax just to get a win in, so I dont see how Johto Ash is all that better honestly, its more impressive when you see the opponent's moves and seeing how Ash plans to overcome it beforehand, because the payoff is that much sweeter.
 

Benny™

Best Wishes Do Come True Under The Sun & Moon
He beat Brian's (Brandon) Regice in BF as well. Using only one Pokemon, I might add. In D&P, it took a full team to beat two of his Pokemon. His Pokemon aside from Pikachu and Gewaldro (Sceptile) got downpowered so he couldn't win - and I'm not the first person to point this out, either. Qurtel (Torkoal) almost beat a Registeel, but got knocked out so easily by Darkrai. And Schwalboss (Swellow) really should not have been taken down in one hit. Plus, Ash didn't use much strategy aside from brute force - I honestly think he battled better against Paul. So his "regression" can be traced as far back as that. In BW001, he couldn't even use electric attacks without getting more tired out.

"Playing it by ear" is a better name for it. He's not "better" (after all, he had to use three Pokemon just to take out Miltank, like you said), but some of his battles impress me more. I don't have a problem with already planned moves like Spin Dodge and Counter Shield, those are good, but I have a problem with over reliance on them, because then you: the viewer already know what's coming.
 
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Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
He beat Brian's (Brandon) Regice in BF as well. Using only one Pokemon, I might add. In D&P, it took a full team to beat two of his Pokemon. His Pokemon aside from Pikachu and Gewaldro (Sceptile) got downpowered so he couldn't win - and I'm not the first person to point this out, either. Qurtel (Torkoal) almost beat a Registeel, but got knocked out so easily by Darkrai. And Schwalboss (Swellow) really should not have been taken down in one hit. Plus, Ash didn't use much strategy aside from brute force - I honestly think he battled better against Paul. So his "regression" can be traced as far back as that. In BW001, he couldn't even use electric attacks without getting more tired out.

"Playing it by ear" is a better name for it. He's not "better" (after all, he had to use three Pokemon just to take out Miltank, like you said), but some of his battles impress me more. I don't have a problem with already planned moves like Spin Dodge and Counter Shield, those are good, but I have a problem with over reliance on them, because then you: the viewer already know what's coming.
Seeing as how Tobias' only known Pokemon was Darkrai I doubt Ash could plan for any of his other ones. Not to mention Sleep Talk with Heracross wasn't strategic? Tobias also mentions that Gible's Draco Metoer would have taken out any of his other Pokemon. And Tobias' Darkrai is probably stronger than Brandon's Registeel (the thing swept a region up until Sceptile showed up. I'd put it on E4 level). And Latios was a complete wild card that Ash knew nothing about.
 

Benny™

Best Wishes Do Come True Under The Sun & Moon
Seeing as how Tobias' only known Pokemon was Darkrai I doubt Ash could plan for any of his other ones. Not to mention Sleep Talk with Heracross wasn't strategic? Tobias also mentions that Gible's Draco Metoer would have taken out any of his other Pokemon. And Tobias' Darkrai is probably stronger than Brandon's Registeel (the thing swept a region up until Sceptile showed up. I'd put it on E4 level). And Latios was a complete wild card that Ash knew nothing about.

Ash couldn't plan for the other Pokemon he may have had, but that doesn't excuse him constantly trying to overpower Tobias's Pokemon either.
Sleep Talk was strategic but it was also a strategy he used earlier in the league, so it wasn't too impressive.
Still, most of Ash's Pokemon could have put up a better fight.
 

charizardfan

Well-Known Member
Ash had decent strategy against Paul, but against Tobias, it got thrown out the window just so he wouldn't beat the league. All he really relied on there was brute force - so I point fingers at D&P for his reset, not BW.
You could point fingers at DP for it, but that doesn’t mean your argument would stand up to scrutiny.

Ash’s first Pokemon against Tobias’ Darkrai was Heracross, a Bug/Fighting-type Pokemon who carried a natural advantage over it (this is specifically commended by Ash’s friends in the stands). He even had a countermeasure against Darkrai’s move in Sleep Talk - and whether or not you find it “impressive” is beside the point, it was a logical maneuver for Ash to have made that had actually worked in his battle against Nando. Heracross lost because of the strength of Darkrai, a Pokemon that defeated every other league competitor alone. Torkoal didn’t last long enough either way. The one move Gible landed on Darkrai was the super-effective Rock Smash attack, and also had access to a powerful Draco Meteor that Tobias himself stated would have beaten any other Pokemon but Darkrai. Sceptile defeated Darkrai, and then lost to Latios - which was a surprise, and had the advantage of being fresh. Ash’s next Pokemon was Swellow, whose choice was also commended by Brock for its ability to match Latios in the air, but it was defeated because Latios was stronger. Ash’s last Pokemon was Pikachu, and he was able to force Latios to a draw in large part because Ash came up with the idea to make up for Pikachu’s disadvantages by having it latching onto Latios and blasting it. While Ash could have used better Pokemon, Tobias was the one relying purely on brute force for most of that match while Ash actually made logical moves that would have - and in some cases, actually did - worked with anyone else but the eventual winner of the Sinnoh League.

The funny thing is, Ash vs. Tobias was a 6-on-6 battle crammed into a single 22 minute episode that had no right being as good as it actually was. More thought than I would have expected went into it, and DP clearly leaves off with the impression that Ash lost because Tobias was a stronger trainer, not because Ash was a weak one. Tobias commends the fight Ash gave him and Ash was the only person to defeat two of his Pokemon, no one else in that League - all trainers who received eight Badges - could even take down one. Brock specifically notes Ash’s progress to the semifinals of the tournament for the first time, which is a clear indication by the show that this is his progress - the first time Ash actually made progress in a Pokemon League since Johto.

Tobias wasn’t a beginning trainer fighting with a Pokemon he just received not five minutes beforehand, but one capable of defeating eight Gym Leaders and all but one (Ash) tournament competitor with a single Pokemon. That Ash lost to him but still gained his respect at the end of the fight speaks volumes about where his strength as a trainer was at the end of the series. AG left off with Ash suffering a one-sided beatdown to Gary and being told he still had to get stronger. DP left off with an Ash who actually did get stronger - in the area that actually counted for something (which was not the Battle Frontier) - and actually came closer to realizing his dream than ever before.

That's why I say he was better in AG/BF - even in Johto, he wasn't stronger, of course, but he was more impressive (to me) because he relied less on moves like Counter shield and more on natural strategy.
How exactly was "Thunder Armor" anymore of a natural strategy than Counter Shield? And how was the Pikachu vs. Regice battle impressive?
 
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Benny™

Best Wishes Do Come True Under The Sun & Moon
You could point fingers at DP for it, but that doesn’t mean your argument would stand up to scrutiny.
-snip -
worked with anyone else but the eventual winner of the Sinnoh League.

Standing up to scrutiny is not relevant to me. Not only could he have made better choices even though most weren't that bad but they shouldn't have had to depower Ash's Pokemon, either.

The funny thing is, Ash vs. Tobias was a 6-on-6 battle crammed into a single 22 minute episode that had no right being as good as it actually was.

You can't just judge trainer strength based on just how the battles were done. Otherwise, I can still say he sucked at various points in D&P. I can say the same for AG but it's not as glaring to me.

Ash was the only person to defeat two of his Pokemon, no one else in that League - all trainers who received eight Badges - could even take down one.

Paul probably could have done it as well, if he were paired up against him.

Tobias wasn’t a beginning trainer fighting with a Pokemon he just received not five minutes beforehand, but one capable of defeating eight Gym Leaders and all but one (Ash) tournament competitor with a single Pokemon.

There are so many more variables than just what kind of trainer someone is.

AG left off with Ash suffering a one-sided beatdown to Gary and being told he still had to get stronger.

That could be considered a "regression" as well.

DP left off with an Ash who actually did get stronger - in the area that actually counted for something (which was not the Battle Frontier) - and actually came closer to realizing his dream than ever before.

The same could be said for Johto, and even AG (where he made the same rank with Johto using only his team of Hoenn).

How exactly was "Thunder Armor" anymore of a natural strategy than Counter Shield? And how was the Pikachu vs. Regice battle impressive?

Why do you insist on picking out only one moment from more than a hundred episodes to twist my argument? And what I really meant was "playing by ear", as Soniman explained better. His battles in the Hoenn League were all good.
 
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zhixun

Well-Known Member
Tobias wasn’t a beginning trainer fighting with a Pokemon he just received not five minutes beforehand, but one capable of defeating eight Gym Leaders and all but one (Ash) tournament competitor with a single Pokemon. That Ash lost to him but still gained his respect at the end of the fight speaks volumes about where his strength as a trainer was at the end of the series. AG left off with Ash suffering a one-sided beatdown to Gary and being told he still had to get stronger. DP left off with an Ash who actually did get stronger - in the area that actually counted for something (which was not the Battle Frontier) - and actually came closer to realizing his dream than ever before.


How exactly was "Thunder Armor" anymore of a natural strategy than Counter Shield? And how was the Pikachu vs. Regice battle impressive?

I think you can not compare a formal league battle in DP with a normal battle with Shigeru in AG. Satoshi did perform better in the Sinnoh league in terms of both rankings and strategy. Some luck will always be involved for the draw during the league. Satoshi is fortunate to face an insane trainer in the semi finals rather than in the last 16.

Do remember that Satoshi lost to Shinji a couple of times before especially the full battle before the league. He was defeated with just 2 out of 6 of Shinji's Pokémon was knocked out. In my opinion if Satoshi did retain his character in term of battling skills, then he can surely knock out 4 or 5 of his Pokémon and possibly forced into a decider.
 

szmty

THIS CITY IS OURS!
I don't want to get heavily involved in a discussion here. I'm coming a bit late to the party and I just want to leave a short comment:
In my opinion, Ash didn't lose his personality at all during DP. Actually, I think that DP was the highest peak of Ash's personality, intelligence and emotional maturity. He was far from becoming stale. You could tell that he had experience, having gone through 3 Pokémon Leagues already, plus the Orange League and the Battle Frontier. He relied on strategy for his battles. Even his battle with Tobias at the end of DP was based on strategy. I agree with a previous post (I think I read it somewhere here a couple of pages ago, but I don't want to look again :p) that it looked as if DP was going to be the anime's final series. Perhaps that was what it was going to happen, and perhaps Ash was reset (I'm sorry, I still feel that he was reset) because he wasn't meant to be in BW, as a main character at least. But I don't want to create more speculation.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
I said this before:

The issue with Ash comes from keeping a protagonist for 800+ episodes. They want to keep Ash as a young hero to connect with the target audience, and such are limited in the degree in which he can develop and grow in that many episodes without making him seem static or repetitive or stale. If Pokemon was like Dragonball(Z) or they wrote Pokemon as this epic of a 10-year-old boy who over the years becomes a Pokemon master as well made their target audience not restricted to 8-12 year kids but an older crowd, the show wouldn't have that type of issue with Ash. Even then, DP at least showed Ash as a much more mature and serious individual (compared to where he was in OS), and one who especially focused on battling. And y'know, that is improvement and development. You can say training and character development is different, but it really is not. Ash's life revolves around battling and training, and the way he goes about is a direct reflection of his growth. They say the same things about real-life athletes all the time - about how X person joined the game as an arrogant loudmouth but over the years that behavior mellows down and the person becomes a better, more responsible player, and they say how X person has matured and gained humility and grown. Same deal with DP Ash. Like I said before, the issue lies in the fact that he should have completed his story hundreds of episodes earlier, and the fact that he's restricted in his growth. But where he can grow heavily is as a trainer getting closer to his goal, and DP did that beautifully.

EDIT: As for Paul, Ash learned that Paul's ways are effective. And Paul learned from Ash that ultimately love a Pokemon can have for its trainer can overcome anything (Infernape being the MVP in that match). In fact, if XY was a direct sequel to DP, I would have loved how Ash made use of his extra Pokemon against Grant to scout out Tyrunt. That was Paul-esque.


Ash couldn't plan for the other Pokemon he may have had, but that doesn't excuse him constantly trying to overpower Tobias's Pokemon either.
Sleep Talk was strategic but it was also a strategy he used earlier in the league, so it wasn't too impressive.
Still, most of Ash's Pokemon could have put up a better fight.

Heracross was a strong strategic counter.
Gible was a quirky wild-card glass cannon with strong moves.
Sceptile is his reliable powerhouse.
Swellow is his strongest aerial Pokemon barring Charizard and known for ludicrous stamina.
Pikachu is...well Pikachu.

The only 'bad' pick might have been Torkoal, and that's still understandable because Torkoal has experience battling a legendary.

Yeah, it sucked that the writers PIS'd Swellow to losing to Latios that quickly, but considering it was only a single episode, it was done well.
 
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Blue Saturday

Violet Prince❤️
I just can't agree with this, the notion Ash becoming artificial in DP despite all the stuff he went through is just weird to me. A lot stuff he goes through in that series is stuff that's never been presented to the character before, therefore he had to react to them in ways that he had never done previously it a lot of it DOES feel genuine for the character, it's not like he's been reduced to some robot like people suddenly think he is. He comes of as artificial to me in, say BW because the people behind the show made it abundantly clear they they don't care about Ash's integrity as a character despite showing the contrary previously and regressed him for the sake of a semi-reboot, almost changing the character entirely to fit their criteria there's no new challenges presented to him that he has to overcome, nothing to bring him forward, everything feels like regression, THAT'S what artificial means to me. Not becoming sightly more mellow then previous seasons.
Slightly more mellow does not equal being devoid of personality and saying the most generic things more often than not. Then again I don't have constant, absolute sunshine vision for my favorite characters in this show and nearly everything they do. Ash might become a better trainer, but it still hasn't prevented him from becoming more and more like cardboard in terms of character. What good is it when a character fails to stand on their own merits in terms of personality? For example I find Serena tends to bounce off other characters (like Bonnie) well, but I don't like her when it comes to her own qualities, so I don't care for her.

So basically exactly what DP did, what with them having Ash meet up with the Champion and the Elite Four and hyping up the Champion League and all..
We still got nothing, zero info on his goal or anything.
 
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OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
Yes but people are assuming that other people would like D&P Ash if he was voiced by the same person even though many people explained why D&P Ash bored them - I don't go assuming that people would like Ash in BW if he had a better actor, do I? Some of them don't even watch the English dub.

But voicing isn't the only thing that contributes on Ash losing his personality. It's just the cherry in the top that ruin Ash's personality. If you really take his personality in the Japanese dub, I could list numerous pieces of evidence that proves it so
 
But voicing isn't the only thing that contributes on Ash losing his personality. It's just the cherry in the top that ruin Ash's personality. If you really take his personality in the Japanese dub, I could list numerous pieces of evidence that proves it so

Oh, he agrees with you: he's just saying that's not the only reason why some of us didn't like Ash in DP, and I agree with both of you on that. The script writers (both JPN + especially ENG dub) didn't help, either, to add to that.
 
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OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
Oh, he agrees with you: he's just saying that's not the only reason why some of us didn't like Ash in DP, and I agree with both of you on that. The script writers (both JPN + especially ENG dub) didn't help, either, to add to that.
I didn't mean to oppose to him, I agree with him too. I'm just saying this statement for other people who assume people think Ash lost his personality only because of the VA. Hehe, whoops for not clarifying. ^.^
 
I didn't mean to oppose to him, I agree with him too. I'm just saying this statement for other people who assume people think Ash lost his personality only because of the VA. Hehe, whoops for not clarifying. ^.^

No problem: I understand what you're saying. ^^

The script writing changes also helped diminish his personality for me as well: what was once decent and fitting for the character, was made into some cool and hip guy's language, especially in the English dub of DP-- or just made plain idiotic altogether, sadly.
 
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It's not so much that he lost his personality, it's that he was so...self-righteous. In BF, he says he doesn't discuss training methods outside of the battlefield but in DP that's what his rivalry with Paul is about. It seemed like he spent almost the whole region trying to win Paul's approval, and to prove himself to him more than he actually cared about Chimchar and other Pokemon. Watch Charmander - The Stray Pokemon and then any episode where the two clash, there's a difference.

AG/BF Ash > Kanto Ash > Johto Ash > Other for me.

And as long as we're on the topic of voices, I like the one that VT uses in interviews, and the AG one. Don't care for her other voices, or the other actresses.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
It's not so much that he lost his personality, it's that he was so...self-righteous. In BF, he says he doesn't discuss training methods outside of the battlefield but in DP that's what his rivalry with Paul is about. It seemed like he spent almost the whole region trying to win Paul's approval, and to prove himself to him more than he actually cared about Chimchar and other Pokemon. Watch Charmander - The Stray Pokemon and then any episode where the two clash, there's a difference.

How on earth is Ash, the guy who was willing to be engulfed in Chimchar's flames just for the sake of rescuing him on two separate occasions, and expressed extreme guilt when Chimchar was injured in a fight by Team Galatic showing that he doesn't care? I mean honestly.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Ash still retained much of his core good-natured personality in DP. He's always been incredibly selfless, loyal, trusting, friendly, determined, and passionate towards Pokemon and bonding and training with them. And he's always been a bit stubborn and rash and prideful, although the latter seemed to die down since Kanto. All of that was apparent in DP through his interactions with his Pokemon, his companions, and his rivals. People have to remember that his core personality has to be maintained for the next generation of viewers.

I think people just want more emotion and better story-writing to bring out that personality of Ash's to a stronger degree. But I think to 10-year-old kids stuff like Ash's bond with Chimchar probably will carry greater nostalgia than it does for OS veterans who'll always cherish Ash/Charizard.
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
Well, I think you nailed this greatly. This post, I identify with it so much. I actually do prefer his BF/AG personality, it works for me compared to DP where Ash has battles/pokemon/schoolboy things on the mind all the the time or BW not-quite-as-but-still artificial act. The not discussing of methods outside of a training area or battlefield is actually smarter, I feel it at least keeps that talk more contained in its general area of work and gives us a more amusing or interesting way of seeing his training itself outside of quick scenes regularly. He did seemed to have a hard-on for Paul with trying to win his approval like a child pining for a parent, you do have a strong point of how that's so un-tasty since it makes Ash seem a bit too Christian/Guddy2shoz/America Boy-like. Though I do disagree, he didn't care about his Pokemon more. Though the fact he circled-jerked for Paul's attention like Serena does felt so pathetic(ha) at times and synthetic. His almost-fist-fight with Darien made much more sense, like Ash would actively chase Darien down at times if his Pokemon has clipped one of his in combat.

Your list follows mine to a tee, though I think I might switch Johto and Kanto. Ash still felt great right in those places either way, but in AG he had a spike in maturity and competence in combat which puts him in the header but still he was still interesting/funny/engaging outside of battle gags or jokes run-into-the-ground. I don't know, it's just when I compare the three on three match against Nando, Stephan and Jackson/Vincent and just look at the way Ash carries himself in personality and the way he acts and talks, it's clear the Johto rendition takes the cake while the BW/DP versions hit the ground. XY Ash is way too overglorified for my sake, he's a competent battler with a still-artificial personality. At this point he just feels an audience surrogate - a self-insert meant to identify(avatar) themselves as him. XY is really trying to hype him up regularly, so I guess that's the intention. BW could have been for more beginning players and XY is meant for those 20-something fanboy/girls who want to identify with him in the way many of the Sword Art Online fanbase identify with Asuna/Kirito or this could be My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic imagining/avatar-ing/identifying, that fanbase seems more fit.

“A sports hero everyone can be proud of and gush over. He needs to be badass from the beginning: the perfect trainer for fans to project themselves onto. That’s what makes following his quest worthwhile to many people. And it explains why Ash has so little real personality anymore besides these idiot hero battle-centric traits. He’s the male Bella Swan of this franchise."

I could write an entire 8 page essay on everything wrong in this post, but it wouldn't matter because I'm just an "Ashlieber" and fanboy who likes watching this perfect and flawless character just win constantly for over 800 episodes
 
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