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Why do people think Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh?

Navin

MALDREAD
Well, I think you nailed this greatly. This post, I identify with it so much. I actually do prefer his BF/AG personality, it works for me compared to DP where Ash has battles/pokemon/schoolboy things on the mind all the the time or BW not-quite-as-but-still artificial act. The not discussing of methods outside of a training area or battlefield is actually smarter, I feel it at least keeps that talk more contained in its general area of work and gives us a more amusing or interesting way of seeing his training itself outside of quick scenes regularly. He did seemed to have a hard-on for Paul with trying to win his approval like a child pining for a parent, you do have a strong point of how that's so un-tasty since it makes Ash seem a bit too Christian/Guddy2shoz/America Boy-like. Though I do disagree, he didn't care about his Pokemon more. Though the fact he circled-jerked for Paul's attention like Serena does felt so pathetic(ha) at times and synthetic. His almost-fist-fight with Darien made much more sense, like Ash would actively chase Darien down at times if his Pokemon has clipped one of his in combat.

Whereas Ash vs Gary was a rivalry over ambitions, Ash vs Paul was a rivalry over ideology. It wasn't Ash just trying to prove his ways to Paul, but also convincing himself of them while being challenged on all fronts by Paul's harsh but effective methods. They both learned from each other. And if XY had directly followed DP, I would say he's already showing that the way he pulled a Paul-esque move in sending out Fletchling to 'scout' Tyrunt even if it meant potentially losing. Ash's "circle-jerk" for Paul is absolutely nothing like Serena's basic crush on Ash.

XY Ash is way too overglorified for my sake, he's a competent battler with a still-artificial personality. At this point he just feels an audience surrogate - a self-insert meant to identify(avatar) themselves as him. XY is really trying to hype him up regularly, so I guess that's the intention. BW could have been for more beginning players and XY is meant for those 20-something fanboy/girls who want to identify with him in the way many of the Sword Art Online fanbase identify with Asuna/Kirito or this could be My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic imagining/avatar-ing/identifying, that fanbase seems more fit.

He still shows much of his core personality. And besides, I think the writers are definitely portraying this Ash like some AG/DP hybrid. But I will say he needs to be more funny and snarky.
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
Ash never lost diddly squat in his personality. Why some people think that way is because they refuse to roll with the writers' punches, and accept change, by forcing others to think the same way as them by deconstructing their every post via the propaganda of SOVAiets, Genwunners, PokéWeeaboos and Worst Wishers.

And as for the irrelevant/off-topic comments...

BW was not a reset(just an altered perspective), Ash was just as competent against Tobias/Cameron as he was against Paul/Gary, Ash and Paul's Rivalry was well-portrayed for the tardet audience, Serena exists as a pastiche of fangirls and Shipping, Veronica Taylor will NEVER voice Ash or anyone in the English Dub EVER again(deal with it), Charizard is not the Best Pokémon Ash will ever own(none are or ever shall be), Ash's Pokémon are NEVER powered down, DP was never intended as the end of the anime, Pikachu losing to a "fresh" Snivy is not improbable for Ash as the avatar of the target audience, so that is not a reason to hate the entirety of BW, and SOVA, Genwunners, Worst Wishers, PokéWeeaboos and like organizations/schools of thought needs to get over themselves
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
I could write an entire 8 page essay on everything wrong in this post, but it wouldn't matter because I'm just an "Ashlieber" and fanboy who likes watching this perfect and flawless character just win constantly for over 800 episodes

I understand if you dont want to take on this post because I got slight migrane from reading it also, maybe it is my Ash fanboyism or maybe it's because a lot of these complaints dont make sense or are way overblown to the point of ridiculousness, so lets gets started.

He did seemed to have a hard-on for Paul with trying to win his approval like a child pining for a parent, you do have a strong point of how that's so un-tasty since it makes Ash seem a bit too Christian/Guddy2shoz/America Boy-like.

Uhh no. Ash wanted Paul to take him seriously as a trainer as stop seeing him as some chump who doesnt know anything about battling. The exact opposite of shilling him. He's not Barry for christ sakes. In fact that was a point of CONTRAST between him and Ash, in that Barry saw Paul as this great trainer and Ash did dont agree or understand with Barry's line of thinking at all, so yeah.....And I thought that was what a rivalry was all about, proving yourself as their equal and eventually overcoming them? If that's the case where are all the complaints of Ash being near obsessed with beating Gary whenever he's mentioned in any capacity? Does that not count? Not even touching the christian thing since I dont know where the that came from.

Though I do disagree, he didn't care about his Pokemon more. Though the fact he circled-jerked for Paul's attention like Serena does felt so pathetic(ha) at times and synthetic. His almost-fist-fight with Darien made much more sense, like Ash would actively chase Darien down at times if his Pokemon has clipped one of his in combat.

Again, it sounds like you're literally talking about Barry's character not Ash's at all. He and Paul always got into an argument whenever they met, how that is circle jerking I HAVE NO IDEA and comparing to Serena is so hilariously off the mark, it's not like he follows Paul around like some lost puppy constantly looking for his approval, they got into SEVERAL HEATED ARGUMENTS ON MANY OCCASIONS. No idea who Darien is though, I searched and nothing came up

And on the point of "he didnt care about his Pokemon more" I refer you to my last post

Your list follows mine to a tee, though I think I might switch Johto and Kanto. Ash still felt great right in those places either way, but in AG he had a spike in maturity and competence in combat which puts him in the header but still he was still interesting/funny/engaging outside of battle gags or jokes run-into-the-ground. I don't know, it's just when I compare the three on three match against Nando, Stephan and Jackson/Vincent and just look at the way Ash carries himself in personality and the way he acts and talks, it's clear the Johto rendition takes the cake while the BW/DP versions hit the ground.

Yet there were plenty of standalone episodes and even an arc in DP that showed he can be his goofy self. I can think of no better example then the Summer Camp Arc where all the characters just get the chance to chill in a more laid back setting, there IS more to his character then just battling in DP and I really wish people would see that

XY Ash is way too overglorified for my sake, he's a competent battler with a still-artificial personality. At this point he just feels an audience surrogate - a self-insert meant to identify(avatar) themselves as him. XY is really trying to hype him up regularly, so I guess that's the intention. BW could have been for more beginning players and XY is meant for those 20-something fanboy/girls who want to identify with him in the way many of the Sword Art Online fanbase identify with Asuna/Kirito or this could be My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic imagining/avatar-ing/identifying, that fanbase seems more fit.


“A sports hero everyone can be proud of and gush over. He needs to be badass from the beginning: the perfect trainer for fans to project themselves onto. That’s what makes following his quest worthwhile to many people. And it explains why Ash has so little real personality anymore besides these idiot hero battle-centric traits. He’s the male Bella Swan of this franchise."

Are you being serious right now? Like legitmate? Are we watching the same series at this point? Ash has lost MORE then his fair share of battles in XY so far, so the fact that you think he's being "perfect" makes no sense at all. He's shown as being able to mess up just like everyone else, on top of being "saved" on several occasions like when he jumped of Lumiose Tower, or when he was tied up by TR in the Ryhorn episode or even in the recent episode where he and the rest of the gang were saved by Flabebe. It feels like you're blatantly ignoring certain events at this point. And dont even compare him to Bella Swan who's character could not function without relying on her man slaves to bend to her whim. How is this some direct comparison? it's near insulting (about on the same level as comparing him to Kirito, seriously wtf?).

Im sorry if I sound disgruntled but I hate the "surrogate" argument tremendously especially when you related all 20 something viewers to that of just fanobys who want to be in Ash's shoes, that's incredibly insulting dude.

I need to lie down
 
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majormanafemale

Well-Known Member
Because Dawn hadbto much personality. I have watched and i kinda felt that but then analyzed things its that Dawn like others later didn't mesh with group her personality was to big thus giving illusion to some veiwers that Ash and Brock lost personality and Barry and Zoey as side characters didn't help that much either.
 
Ash never lost diddly squat in his personality. Why some people think that way is because they refuse to roll with the writers' punches, and accept change, by forcing others to think the same way as them by deconstructing their every post via the propaganda of SOVAiets, Genwunners, PokéWeeaboos and Worst Wishers.

And as for the irrelevant/off-topic comments...

BW was not a reset(just an altered perspective), Ash was just as competent against Tobias/Cameron as he was against Paul/Gary, Ash and Paul's Rivalry was well-portrayed for the tardet audience, Serena exists as a pastiche of fangirls and Shipping, Veronica Taylor will NEVER voice Ash or anyone in the English Dub EVER again(deal with it), Charizard is not the Best Pokémon Ash will ever own(none are or ever shall be), Ash's Pokémon are NEVER powered down, DP was never intended as the end of the anime, Pikachu losing to a "fresh" Snivy is not improbable for Ash as the avatar of the target audience, so that is not a reason to hate the entirety of BW, and SOVA, Genwunners, Worst Wishers, PokéWeeaboos and like organizations/schools of thought needs to get over themselves
This is the perfect example of purely blind fanboy-ism right here, to the point where someone can't notice changes made for better or for worse over the years: at least Soniman and Maldread are trying to express why they disagree with us, while you're mocking every group of people imaginable that dislike changes made to the Pokemon Anime, that may in fact have caused it to deteriorate in quality-- the decline in ratings with every passing series be it the ORG JPN Version or the English dub, to the point where we had an abysmal 5.3 rating in JPN for XY's premiere, says a lot on its own. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, these people have valid points and claims as to why they feel that way? I can tell that didn't cross your mind for a second.

Oh, and YOU need to get over YOURSELF before telling anyone else to do the same.

To answer the thread's question...because of the lies of GENWUNNERS who can't accept change.

In other words, I blame SOVA for this misconception.

A genwunner is someone who only likes the first generation of Pokemon, so by that definition, you're automatically wrong with that statement.

Right, because the voice is the only thing that changed, and as it is, that happened back in BF. I noticed a steep decline in the quality of the script writing the minute TPCi took over from 4Kids for Ash that got even worse in DP, but I digress: if you want me to provide examples, I can-- literally hundreds of differences between the two's speech patterns.

And as long as we're on the topic of voices, I like the one that VT uses in interviews, and the AG one. Don't care for her other voices, or the other actresses.

Personally, I think the AG one was not Veronica's best pitch for Ash, but it's still way better than her Early Kanto or Mid Kanto pitch-- it was great, though, don't get me wrong-- it's just not my absolute favorite. My favorite was Late Kanto up until the end of Johto, honestly: still, to me any of Veronica Taylor's voices are superb when contrasted with Sarah Natochenny and Kayzie Rogers' voices for him. The one she uses in interviews varies depending on which year they're taken from as well, so that's not very specific to say the least.
 
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Well, I think you nailed this greatly. This post, I identify with it so much. I actually do prefer his BF/AG personality, it works for me compared to DP where Ash has battles/pokemon/schoolboy things on the mind all the the time or BW not-quite-as-but-still artificial act. The not discussing of methods outside of a training area or battlefield is actually smarter, I feel it at least keeps that talk more contained in its general area of work and gives us a more amusing or interesting way of seeing his training itself outside of quick scenes regularly. He did seemed to have a hard-on for Paul with trying to win his approval like a child pining for a parent, you do have a strong point of how that's so un-tasty since it makes Ash seem a bit too Christian/Guddy2shoz/America Boy-like. Though I do disagree, he didn't care about his Pokemon more. Though the fact he circled-jerked for Paul's attention like Serena does felt so pathetic(ha) at times and synthetic. His almost-fist-fight with Darien made much more sense, like Ash would actively chase Darien down at times if his Pokemon has clipped one of his in combat.

He sure did have a hard-on, which was the driving force of the rivalry. Paul would have been mean to anyone, so the rivalry doesn't work for me personally.

I agree that he doesn't care for them more than in the past, just that it overtook his "personality", giving you the illusion that he cared more. All I saw was obsession.

Your list follows mine to a tee, though I think I might switch Johto and Kanto. Ash still felt great right in those places either way, but in AG he had a spike in maturity and competence in combat which puts him in the header but still he was still interesting/funny/engaging outside of battle gags or jokes run-into-the-ground. I don't know, it's just when I compare the three on three match against Nando, Stephan and Jackson/Vincent and just look at the way Ash carries himself in personality and the way he acts and talks, it's clear the Johto rendition takes the cake while the BW/DP versions hit the ground. XY Ash is way too overglorified for my sake, he's a competent battler with a still-artificial personality. At this point he just feels an audience surrogate - a self-insert meant to identify(avatar) themselves as him. XY is really trying to hype him up regularly, so I guess that's the intention. BW could have been for more beginning players and XY is meant for those 20-something fanboy/girls who want to identify with him in the way many of the Sword Art Online fanbase identify with Asuna/Kirito or this could be My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic imagining/avatar-ing/identifying, that fanbase seems more fit.

BW Ash is no different from DP Ash aside from the gags coming to him and the regression. I'd even say that the good Ash (Kanto - BF) is more mature than him, DP Ash's maturity just equates to blandness. I put Kanto Ash above him because he was more fresh, Johto Ash was watered down but still good. For his voice, I only really liked it in AG. But his OS voice is at least better than DP-present...

The producers don't seem to realize that he should be a ten year old first and a hero second. Heroics mean nothing without character.

How on earth is Ash, the guy who was willing to be engulfed in Chimchar's flames just for the sake of rescuing him on two separate occasions, and expressed extreme guilt when Chimchar was injured in a fight by Team Galatic showing that he doesn't care? I mean honestly.

As I said before, he wouldn't have been able to prove himself otherwise. What else would he do? His heroics were so artificial because there wasn't an actual character there.
 
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Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
I could write an entire 8 page essay on everything wrong in this post, but it wouldn't matter because I'm just an "Ashlieber" and fanboy who likes watching this perfect and flawless character just win constantly for over 800 episodes

I understand if you dont want to take on this post because I got slight migrane from reading it also, maybe it is my Ash fanboyism or maybe it's because a lot of these complaints dont make sense or are way overblown to the point of ridiculousness, so lets gets started.
It can't be wrong if it's an opinion. Right, Ash Ketchum defense brigade?

Uhh no. Ash wanted Paul to take him seriously as a trainer as stop seeing him as some chump who doesnt know anything about battling. The exact opposite of shilling him. He's not Barry for christ sakes. In fact that was a point of CONTRAST between him and Ash, in that Barry saw Paul as this great trainer and Ash did dont agree or understand with Barry's line of thinking at all, so yeah.....And I thought that was what a rivalry was all about, proving yourself as their equal and eventually overcoming them? If that's the case where are all the complaints of Ash being near obsessed with beating Gary whenever he's mentioned in any capacity? Does that not count? Not even touching the christian thing since I dont know where the that came from.
Gary made Ash actually act...well human. I don't know what the Paul thing was about. His want for Paul's attention at times just felt so goody-goody, a bit too much. thenightmarereinducer16 sums up my feelings pretty well on the matter.
Again, it sounds like you're literally talking about Barry's character not Ash's at all. He and Paul always got into an argument whenever they met, how that is circle jerking I HAVE NO IDEA and comparing to Serena is so hilariously off the mark, it's not like he follows Paul around like some lost puppy constantly looking for his approval, they got into SEVERAL HEATED ARGUMENTS ON MANY OCCASIONS. No idea who Darien is though, I searched and nothing came up
Meant Damian. And refer to my last post, I mean his "obsession" for Paul bridged a little too much. Paul didn't give a crap about Ash half the time, he was more like a pest to Paul who kept nagging him for battles and attention. Paul would squash him or tie with him the majority of the time and he would just walk off into the sunset with a typical apathetic grin on his face, with Ash smiling happily or looking defeated or something. Paul clearly was a jerk to most people. Just look at Maylene, but she didn't actively form a want him. Even then their encounters usually resulted in Ash being nice, Paul being a dick and then them battling or something.


Yet there were plenty of standalone episodes and even an arc in DP that showed he can be his goofy self. I can think of no better example then the Summer Camp Arc where all the characters just get the chance to chill in a more laid back setting, there IS more to his character then just battling in DP and I really wish people would see that
I disagree, the environment or setting doesn't change Ash's personality at all. You could put him anywhere else in DP and he still felt the same imo. His self-righteous nature at times and general ways of doing things and acting just felt so...unnatural.

Are you being serious right now? Like legitmate? Are we watching the same series at this point? Ash has lost MORE then his fair share of battles in XY so far, so the fact that you think he's being "perfect" makes no sense at all. He's shown as being able to mess up just like everyone else, on top of being "saved" on several occasions like when he jumped of Lumiose Tower, or when he was tied up by TR in the Ryhorn episode or even in the recent episode where he and the rest of the gang were saved by Flabebe. It feels like you're blatantly ignoring certain events at this point. And dont even compare him to Bella Swan who's character could not function without relying on her man slaves to bend to her whim. How is this some direct comparison? it's near insulting (about on the same level as comparing him to Kirito, seriously wtf?).
When he messes it up in XY it's usually not because of a character flaw, but a miscalculation thanks to his opponent getting a small leg up on him. You know what I mean? Even then he still usually gets the kill shot of the episode.
Im sorry if I sound disgruntled but I hate the "surrogate" argument tremendously especially when you related all 20 something viewers to that of just fanobys who want to be in Ash's shoes, that's incredibly insulting dude.
20-something-year-olds is what I meant and no need to apologize.

He sure did have a hard-on, which was the driving force of the rivalry. Paul would have been mean to anyone, so the rivalry doesn't work for me personally.
Yes, Ash constantly trying to prove his worth and gain Paul's attention wasn't the whole rivalry but with every appearance a large amount of moments he literally thought or was thinking of Paul. During the Roark battle, he was obsessed with Paul staying to watch instead of getting his badge.


BW Ash is no different from DP Ash aside from the gags coming to him and the regression. I'd even say that the good Ash (Kanto - BF) is more mature than him, DP Ash's maturity just equates to blandness. I put Kanto Ash above him because he was more fresh, Johto Ash was watered down but still good. For his voice, I don't like his OS one a lot, but it's better than the " LOOK I'M THE HERO" one he has now.

The producers don't seem to realize that he should be a ten year old first and a hero second. Heroics mean nothing without character.
Your post is flawless, just compare the Cyndaquil training episode in Johto to the recent Froakie training episode in XY. Look at Ash, the way he acts and all he just feels more human overall.
 
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Soniman

Break the Limit
I'll respond to the rest of you later.
As I said before, he wouldn't have been able to prove himself otherwise. What else would he do? His heroics were so artificial because there wasn't an actual character there.

How is that being artifical? He always does stuff like that in the series, why is it suddenly artifical? because it happened in DP??? He worried was worried about Chimchar because he cared for it like any other Pokemon of his. It wouldn't make a difference if this happened in AG or OS. Ash being worried about his own damn Pokemon is not something new.

I agree that he doesn't care for them more than in the past, just that it overtook his "personality", giving you the illusion that he cared more. All I saw was obsession.
Obsession with his Pokemon???????? This post confuses me. How does one care to the point where it overtakes your personality? Isnt the fact that he cares about them so much DOES show he has a personality like everyone keeps saying suddenly vanished completely in DP

BW Ash is no different from DP Ash aside from the gags coming to him and the regression. I'd even say that the good Ash (Kanto - BF) is more mature than him, DP Ash's maturity just equates to blandness. I put Kanto Ash above him because he was more fresh, Johto Ash was watered down but still good. For his voice, I don't like his OS one a lot, but it's better than the " LOOK I'M THE HERO" one he has now.

Yes Kanto Ash, hallmark of maturity. With how he cheated in his first Gym Battle, accepted many pity badges, got into many frequent fights with Misty, how he expressed ignorance at many things Pokemon related and all, had a huge ego, and lost the Pokemon League because he didnt bother to train his disobedient Charizard and was reduced to begging for it's help. A more shinnign example then DP Ash to be sure.

Look I wont argue about the fact that you find Kanto Ash more fun and interesting, but dont give me this reasoning that he was more mature when he clearly wasnt at all.

It can't be wrong if it's an opinion. Right, Ash Ketchum defense brigade?


If that's how you seriously feel towards anyone who tries and argues your points then ill just drop it since it's a waste of time(I never really said my view are to be treated as facts though).... well except for this one post.

Your post is flawless, just compare the Cyndaquil training episode in Johto to the recent Froakie training episode in XY. Look at Ash, the way he acts and all he just feels more human overall.

Ash training with a Pokemon to get stronger in battle when it lost vs an episode wit Ash training with a Pokemon to get stronger in battle when it lost. Only difference being Ash trained a long side Froakie to get into it's mindset, as opposed to just throwing some sticks for target practice for Cyndaquil. This is what I mean with my own views on the situation. I just dont /get/ what apparent lack of human element is there, he's just training with his Pokemon like normal, there's do distinct difference to me, I guess im just missing something.
 
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Gary made Ash actually act...well human. I don't know what the Paul thing was about. His want for Paul's attention at times just felt so goody-goody, a bit too much. thenightmarereinducer16 sums up my feelings pretty well on the matter.

Gary and Ash's rivalry worked because it was a clash of personality, and Gary was always a step ahead of him as far back as childhood, and wasn't directly tied to "who battles better?".

Paul didn't give a crap about Ash half the time, he was more like a pest to Paul who kept nagging him for battles and attention.

Exactly. Ash always seemed to forget that Paul was mean until he actually encountered him, this never happened with Gary. Ash was like one of those NPCs in the games who keep nagging you to battle you.

When he messes it up in XY it's usually not because of a character flaw, but a miscalculation thanks to his opponent getting a small leg up on him. You know what I mean? Even then he still usually gets the kill shot of the episode.

The same goes for DP and BW. Even when it could tie to his character, it doesn't stick and is forgotten about by the time it's resolved.

How is that being artifical? He always does stuff like that in the series, why is it suddenly artifical? because it happened in DP??? He worried was worried about Chimchar because he cared for it like any other Pokemon of his. It wouldn't make a difference if this happened in AG or OS. Ash being worried about his own damn Pokemon is not something new.

In AG and OS, he had character to back it up. In DP, they exaggerated his love for Pokemon to the point where most of his other personality traits aside from gluttony , hyper, and other stock shonen traits were either dulled down or removed.

Obsession with his Pokemon???????? This post confuses me. How does one care to the point where it overtakes your personality? Isnt the fact that he cares about them so much DOES show he has a personality like everyone keeps saying suddenly vanished completely in DP

I'm not "everyone". I even said he never lost it, but just got worse.

Also, see above.

Yes Kanto Ash, hallmark of maturity. With how he cheated in his first Gym Battle, accepted many pity badges, got into many frequent fights with Misty, how he expressed ignorance at many things Pokemon related and all, had a huge ego, and lost the Pokemon League because he didnt bother to train his disobedient Charizard and was reduced to begging for it's help. A more shinnign example then DP Ash to be sure.

Did Kanto Ash whine over Paul or throw a tantrum when he found out Viola wasn't at her gym?

Most of your examples are more about inexperience than maturity. Not only was he more mature but he was less of an idiot as well.
 
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How is that being artifical? He always does stuff like that in the series, why is it suddenly artifical? because it happened in DP??? He worried was worried about Chimchar because he cared for it like any other Pokemon of his. It wouldn't make a difference if this happened in AG or OS. Ash being worried about his own damn Pokemon is not something new.


Obsession with his Pokemon???????? This post confuses me. How does one care to the point where it overtakes your personality? Isnt the fact that he cares about them so much DOES show he has a personality like everyone keeps saying suddenly vanished completely in DP



Yes Kanto Ash, hallmark of maturity. With how he cheated in his first Gym Battle, accepted many pity badges, got into many frequent fights with Misty, how he expressed ignorance at many things Pokemon related and all, had a huge ego, and lost the Pokemon League because he didnt bother to train his disobedient Charizard and was reduced to begging for it's help. A more shinnign example then DP Ash to be sure.

Look I wont argue about the fact that you find Kanto Ash more fun and interesting, but dont give me this reasoning that he was more mature when he clearly wasnt at all.
How did he cheat in his first battle? To quote Ash, "Those sprinklers going off was just an accident: winning the match because of that wouldn't have proven anything-- next time we meet, I'll beat you MY way: fair and square." That shows character and a great deal of maturity to walk out knowing he won by luck and Brock was the one who took pity on Ash giving him the battle saying, "Nah, I lost to YOU: you beat me in battle AND in being kind to all Pokemon" with Ash even saying, "but..."-- that is truly spectacular, IMO.

As for pity badges, you know, I honestly preferred that overall-- like when Ash ran into the flames when the Celadon City Gym was burning down and saved Gloom at the cost of his own life, because I sure as heck preferred that to seeing him winning Gym battles using the same standard ordinary fare we've seen time and again, but with different strategies.

Frequent fights, I give you-- that's not maturity, but at least he was lively and funny because of that: I don't like how bland he got later on.

Huge ego? Oh, he's had that in OS, AG, DP, BW, and XY-- that's never changed.

Exactly on Charizard, but he gained its trust later on in the Orange Islands, so I let that slide.

Ash was never mature in any saga, IMO: blandness and stiffness =/= maturity to me, though.
 
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Incendiary Revenant

You can't see me
I personally don't agree, but I'm curious to why people think so.

Aside from the voice actress switch, his obsession with battles overcame everything else, he lost most of his comical traits, and the flanderization that was slowly eating away at his character was gradually becoming more powerful. DP Ash is one of many reminders of what we have lost, which is another reason why people don't like this version of him.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Gary and Ash's rivalry worked because it was a clash of personality, and Gary was always a step ahead of him as far back as childhood, and wasn't directly tied to "who battles better?".
The clash of Gary being a jerk and Ash being less of one? That's not exactly as memorable as Ash and Paul literraly battling over their personal philosophies as trainers. Not to mention they actually battled frequently over the course of DP so you get a better feel for their dynamic as opposed to the...two times Gary and Ash did in over 275 episodes where Gary is suddenly more modest in Johto despite it never clearly being explained, that's kinda what happens when you dont much of a rivalry with your actual RIVAL.



Exactly. Ash always seemed to forget that Paul was mean until he actually encountered him, this never happened with Gary. Ash was like one of those NPCs in the games who keep nagging you to battle you.
It's almost as if they wanted a rivaly where the two opponents would constantly butt heads. Also Ash DID hold onto negative feelings for Paul, as seen when he outright called him a jerk when Barry was busying praising him.



The same goes for DP and BW. Even when it could tie to his character, it doesn't stick and is forgotten about by the time it's resolved.
Except there are tons of examples of this taking place in DP? It's not really DP's fault that BW choose to do a hard reset on everything



In AG and OS, he had character to back it up. In DP, they exaggerated his love for Pokemon to the point where most of his other personality traits aside from gluttony , hyper, and other stock shonen traits were either dulled down or removed.
Again, how is it exaggerated when I could see AG Ash doing this kind of thing. Putting himself in danger because he loves Pokemon, that's always been a consistent trait of the character it's shown here as well.
To me this feels like you just dont like the direction they took his character in DP, so when they mellowed him out a bit and dialed back some of the traits you liked, you equate that with no character. It would really help if you gave actual examples because every trait I think of when I think of Ash is still seen here.


Did Kanto Ash whine over Paul? No.
Because Ash didnt get extremely disgruntled and angry and pissy at the slightest mention of Gary??

Did Kanto Ash throw a tantrum when he found out Viola wasn't at her gym? No.
No, but he did for a lot of other stuff. I dont know why you're trying to paint Kanto Ash as the better half here, for every one example you can put DP/XY Ash in I can easily find five more for Kanto Ash.
 
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No, but he did for a lot of other stuff. I dont know why you're trying to paint Kanto Ash as the better half here, for every one example you can put DP/XY Ash in I can easily find five more for Kanto Ash.

He's certainly a better character than the latter two at any rate, IMO.
 
i dont exactly know what this adds since it's pretty clear im in the vast minority at this point.

Funny, I thought you're in the majority on this one-- most fans I talk to love DP Ash.

Anyway, I could go on for days describing why the latter two are overrated, but I digress: to each their own.
 
The clash of Gary being a jerk and Ash being less of one? That's not exactly as memorable as Ash and Paul literraly battling over their personality. Not to mention they actually battled freqentley over the course of DP so you get a better feel for their dynamic as opposed to the...two times Gary and Ash did in over 275 episodes where Gary is suddenly more modest in Johto despite it never clearly being explained, that's kinda what happens when you dont much of a rivalry with your actual RIVAL.

Ash and Paul battled over training methods. We got "better battles" out of it, but that's pretty much it.
Battling frequently didn't mean anything since their interactions were pretty much "rinse, repeat" until league time.
You talk about Gary suddenly being modest, but Paul had a similar sudden change.

It's almost as if they wanted a rivaly where the two opponents would constantly butt heads. Also Ash DID hold onto negative feelings for Paul, as seen when he outright called him a jerk when Barry was busying praising him.

And yet when Paul appeared in the flesh, he always greeted him nicely.

Except there are tons of examples of this taking place in DP? It's not really DP's fault that BW choose to do a hard reset on everything

BW reset his battle skills (which I don't like), but his character wasn't much different.

Again, how is it exaggerated when I could see AG Ash doing this kind of thing. Putting himself in danger because he loves Pokemon, that's always been a consistent trait of the character it's shown here as well.

Because that's really all there was to him. Also, his actions in DP felt more like trials that he had to complete to get to the next step than real urgencies.

To me this feels like you just dont like the direction they took his character in DP, so when they mellowed him out a bit and dialed back some of the traits you liked, you equate that with no character. It would really help if you gave actual examples because every trait I think of when I think of Ash is still seen here.

All of the Ash vs. Paul encounters
Every single episode with training as the main focus
The Gym Battle episodes

Because Ash didnt get extremely disgruntled and angry and pissy at the slightest mention of Gary??

Gary got under his skin because they knew each other more personally. Paul just had a "different way of training" and that pisses him off (I'd be pissed too if someone was abusing Pokemon, but since they passed it off as a "different training method", it seems more unjustified than it is).

No, but he did for a lot of other stuff. I dont know why you're trying to paint Kanto Ash as the better half here, for every one example you can put DP/XY Ash in I can easily find five more for Kanto Ash.

Name the things he whined for that other ten year olds wouldn't have.
 

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
Not only was he more mature but he was less of an idiot as well.
Pretty much, XY Ash is the same Ash he was in BW. Only with better battling skills. I could just imagine a certain Dragon Master to-be uttering the phrase "Such a kid." after that temper tantrum he threw when Alexa/Viola wouldn't bend to him.

Gary got under his skin because they knew each other more personally. Paul just had a "different way of training" and that pisses him off (I'd be pissed too if someone was abusing Pokemon, but since they passed it off as a "different training method", it seems more unjustified than it is).
The two-dimensional characters involved in the rivalry were lame and the rivalry being over something as petty and unengaging as Pokemon training methods was repetitive as heck and made little sense at the beginning.

In AG and OS, he had character to back it up. In DP, they exaggerated his love for Pokemon to the point where most of his other personality traits aside from gluttony , hyper, and other stock shonen traits were either dulled down or removed.
Bingo.
Aside from the voice actress switch, his obsession with battles overcame everything else, he lost most of his comical traits, and the flanderization that was slowly eating away at his character was gradually becoming more powerful. DP Ash is one of many reminders of what we have lost, which is another reason why people don't like this version of him.
This.
 
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Pretty much, XY Ash is the same Ash he was in BW. Only with better battling skills. I could just imagine a certain Dragon Master to-be uttering the phrase "Such a kid." after that temper tantrum he threw when Alexa/Viola wouldn't bend to him.

And more glorification as well. I don't get why we're supposed to root for XY Ash as opposed to BW Ash when they're the same?
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Ash and Paul battled over training methods. We got "better battles" out of it, but that's pretty much it.
Battling frequently didn't mean anything since their interactions were pretty much "rinse, repeat" until league time.
You talk about Gary suddenly being modest, but Paul had a similar sudden change.

Except Paul's was actually explained. He had a cathartic battle against Brandon where he got annihilated because he battled with his emotions (something Ash does a lot) which got to him instead of his vintage calculating battle strategy that overwhelmed Ash ten days later at Lake Acuity. Once he found out Ash defeated Brandon, he gained more respect for Ash. He gained respect for Ash as he saw his approach was effective. He gained respect for Ash for training Chimchar into a powerful Infernape. You see Ash's influence clearly at the League when Paul incorporates Countershield as well as thanks Electivire for the battle. And that last shot of Paul's Pokemon looking sad at his loss and happy at his return and battling with him definitely implies a trainer that is bonding with his Pokemon like Ash does.

-------------------------------------

As for Ash, it honestly seems the issue I'm seeing people have with Ash is that his personality mellowed out over time. They also want to him be more flawed like in OS where he was more arrogant and stubborn and rash. Because of this, people see XY Ash as "generic" and "overglorified hero" and "audience surrogate" even though he still retains much of his core personality as from before.
 
Except Paul's was actually explained. He had a cathartic battle against Brandon where he got annihilated because he battled with his emotions (something Ash does a lot) which got to him instead of his vintage calculating battle strategy that overwhelmed Ash ten days later at Lake Acuity. Once he found out Ash defeated Brandon, he gained more respect for Ash. He gained respect for Ash as he saw his approach was effective. He gained respect for Ash for training Chimchar into a powerful Infernape. You see Ash's influence clearly at the League when Paul incorporates Countershield as well as thanks Electivire for the battle. And that last shot of Paul's Pokemon looking sad at his loss and happy at his return and battling with him definitely implies a trainer that is bonding with his Pokemon like Ash does.

After the Lake Acuity battle, Paul just left off without a word to him - making the "gradual change" in the league more like a "sudden change".

As for Ash, it honestly seems the issue I'm seeing people have with Ash is that his personality mellowed out over time. They also want to him be more flawed like in OS where he was more arrogant and stubborn and rash. Because of this, people see XY Ash as "generic" and "overglorified hero" and "audience surrogate" even though he still retains much of his core personality as from before.

I also want development.
 
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