Why do people think Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh?

[PokemonNation2000]

I get that, but you don't have to try so hard to let everyone know how strongly you dislike a character.
Say it a few times and that's it.

Fair enough, man: I can go with that.

 

[DedicatedFan]

Fair enough, man: I can go with that.

Its just that i've seen you and plenty other people go on and about how this character is bland or how this character was ruined. If you don't like how the character is portrayed that's fine, but to see so many people repeat themselves for months seems kind of pointless.

 

[Aegiscalibur]

Correct answer, although there's a bit of truth in everything Aegiscalibur said-- all of them have their problems, none are perfect...but then, a perfect hero wouldn't be someone worth watching to me. Everyone has their flaws, after all.

Well, there are different things you can mean by a character being "perfect." There's
the "constantly praised and hyped due to status in the cast" character,
the "wins every battle in God mode" character,
the "full of pure incorruptible goodness" character, and
the "actually well written to the point of virtual perfection" character.

The first three are the problems.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Its just that i've seen you and plenty other people go on and about how this character is bland or how this character was ruined. If you don't like how the character is portrayed that's fine, but to see so many people repeat themselves for months seems kind of pointless.

That's perfectly understandable, man.

Well, there are different things you can mean by a character being "perfect." There's
the "constantly praised and hyped due to status in the cast" character,
the "wins every battle in God mode" character,
the "full of pure incorruptible goodness" character, and
the "actually well written to the point of virtual perfection" character.

The first three are the problems.

I couldn't agree more with that.

 

[Soniman]

Well, there are different things you can mean by a character being "perfect." There's
the "constantly praised and hyped due to status in the cast" character,
the "wins every battle in God mode" character,
the "full of pure incorruptible goodness" character, and
the "actually well written to the point of virtual perfection" character.

The first three are the problems.

1: This kind of thing varies between whatever group Ash finds himself in, you have it going in the opposite direction like with OS where Brock and Misty constantly criticized him. the other end like in XY where everyone is cool with him and admire his character in some form or meet somwhere in the middle like AG/BW (Iris did the **** talking, Cilan did the praising)
2: There's plenty of battles where Ash just wins because he's skilled enough in that instance to do so
3: Well that's kinda the crux in most shonen protags, characters like Luffy, Naruto, etc all have that trait of not turning to the dark side or whatever

 

[Navin]

After the Lake Acuity battle, Paul just left off without a word to him - making the "gradual change" in the league more like a "sudden change".

They are rivals. They have a lot of pride. Nothing he says would comfort Ash in that situation. But he didn't belittle Ash or call him pathetic; instead he acknowledges that it indeed was a spectacular battle. That is a sign of respect for Ash.

Paul's angst wasn't explained prior to that battle, though, which doesn't excuse his "you're pathetic" attitude towards everyone else at all to me.

I don't get what you mean by this.

Even after said battle, he still acted like a complete jerk to Ash until Ash beat him during the Sinnoh League. Conversely, Gary mellowed out sometime after the Indigo League, and they had a childhood rivalry because Ash and Gary always sought to outdo each other-- their rivalry was much more amicable yet also fierce than Ash and Paul's, IMO. Gary gained respect for Ash in a similar fashion, notably after he placed higher in the Indigo League than he did, and his maturity showed in the Orange Islands, where he taunted Ash in a subtle way but was also respectful of him. That continued into Johto, and personally I feel it was much better than what Ash and Paul had.

Gary/Ash was a good rivalry, but Gary could have appeared more. Gary/Ash's rivalry was different than Paul/Ash's anyway.

His personality didn't just mellow-- it lost some of its best and defining characteristics as well, most notably selflessness for others and other Pokemon that he didn't own: the only exception to this in DP was Hippopotas, but even then, he didn't demonstrate the level of care with it that he did in OS and in AG with other Pokemon. Yes, being more flawed makes him act more like an actual human being would, and gives you something to want to cheer for and to see improved-- seeing someone who is already lacking flaws is fairly dull and boring because it feels like there's nowhere to go with the character. He doesn't retain the selflessness, sarcasm, or wittiness he used to have at all to me in XY whatsoever.

I really do think it is just mellowing. People want specific parts of his personality to be more exaggerated. But I agree. XY Ash is lacking in sarcasm and wit, and that's probably what I want to see most from him. I wish Serena retained more of her sassiness to allow for that dynamic.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

I don't get what you mean by this.

Gary/Ash was a good rivalry, but Gary could have appeared more. Gary/Ash's rivalry was different than Paul/Ash's anyway.

I really do think it is just mellowing. People want specific parts of his personality to be more exaggerated. But I agree. XY Ash is lacking in sarcasm and wit, and that's probably what I want to see most from him. I wish Serena retained more of her sassiness to allow for that dynamic.

He was always talking down to Ash rather than playfully teasing him: that's what I'm getting at all.

I'm not saying their rivalry was flawless by any means, don't get me wrong, but it felt like they were real rivals that always had respect for each other, whereas in the latter case, not so much.

Part of it is certainly mellowing, no doubt, but another part of it is the character losing some traits that really made up a big part of his character. I definitely am one of said people, honestly. Agreed on both Ash and Serena.

 

[zhixun]

They are rivals. They have a lot of pride. Nothing he says would comfort Ash in that situation. But he didn't belittle Ash or call him pathetic; instead he acknowledges that it indeed was a spectacular battle. That is a sign of respect for Ash.

Gary/Ash was a good rivalry, but Gary could have appeared more. Gary/Ash's rivalry was different than Paul/Ash's anyway.

I really do think it is just mellowing. People want specific parts of his personality to be more exaggerated. But I agree. XY Ash is lacking in sarcasm and wit, and that's probably what I want to see most from him. I wish Serena retained more of her sassiness to allow for that dynamic.

Shigeru was not too good rivalry until the end of OS in my opinion. He usually teases Satoshi at the first place similar to Shinji calling Satoshi useless. Shinji with Satoshi is another story by the way he treats Pokémon compared with Shigeru.

I have a question to ask you. Are you Serena haters or just obsessed with her? There is no need to bring her in every thread here.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Shigeru was not too good rivalry until the end of OS in my opinion. He usually teases Satoshi at the first place similar to Shinji calling Satoshi useless. Shinji with Satoshi is another story by the way he treats Pokémon compared with Shigeru.

Actually, I feel like he was just playfully teasing him back in Kanto, and then eventually grew into a more witty exchange of comments during the end of OI and all of Johto-- it always felt like a nicer rivalry to me than Ash and Paul. Paul always acted so condescending, rude, and mean to Ash, with Ash's response being anger or frustration: they felt more like actual enemies than real rivals to me-- I'd argue Paul's rivalry was not too good with Ash until the end of DP when Paul finally began to understand Ash's training methods.

 

[Navin]

He was always talking down to Ash rather than playfully teasing him: that's what I'm getting at all. I'm not saying their rivalry was flawless by any means, don't get me wrong, but it felt like they were real rivals that always had respect for each other, whereas in the latter case, not so much.

It was just a different dynamic. Ash and Paul were opposites and didn't like each other but they gradually gained respect for each other's style over time.

Part of it is certainly mellowing, no doubt, but another part of it is the character losing some traits that really made up a big part of his character. I definitely am one of said people, honestly. Agreed on both Ash and Serena.

I don't think he lost anything, but it was just toned down.

I have a question to ask you. Are you Serena haters or just obsessed with her? There is no need to bring her in every thread here.

Uhh no, I'm not a Serena hater nor am I obsessed with her. I brought her up in one sentence just to prove a different point. Sounds like you care about her more considering your defensiveness of me bringing her up.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

It was just a different dynamic. Ash and Paul were opposites and didn't like each other but they gradually gained respect for each other's style over time.

I don't think he lost anything, but it was just toned down.

I suppose, but I still feel like they were more or less more enemies than rivals: Paul never really gained any true respect for Ash until the very end of DP to me-- too antagonistic to me.

It was certainly toned down either way, but the selflessness he once had was solely restricted to his Pokemon and to the wild Hippopotas than other human beings or other Pokemon in the wild, IMO. The witty side of him began to completely erode her as well, as did his sarcastic side, too.

 

[zhixun]

It was just a different dynamic. Ash and Paul were opposites and didn't like each other but they gradually gained respect for each other's style over time.



I don't think he lost anything, but it was just toned down.




Uhh no, I'm not a Serena hater nor am I obsessed with her. I brought her up in one sentence just to prove a different point. Sounds like you care about her more considering your defensiveness of me bringing her up.

Yes I am a fan of Serena but I would not like to see her being brought out all over the place and some people saying that they want Serena to be a same character with a different design.

I suppose, but I still feel like they were more or less more enemies than rivals: Paul never really gained any true respect for Ash until the very end of DP to me-- too antagonistic to me.

It was certainly toned down either way, but the selflessness he once had was solely restricted to his Pokemon and to the wild Hippopotas than other human beings or other Pokemon in the wild, IMO. The witty side of him began to completely erode her as well, as did his sarcastic side, too.

Shinji's brother Reiji has lost to Jindai so he think love and care would not work. Not too antagonistic in my opinion as he did not do anything particularly bad like stealing. Of course I do not agree that he disrespects other people.

 

[Aegiscalibur]

1: This kind of thing varies between whatever group Ash finds himself in, you have it going in the opposite direction like with OS where Brock and Misty constantly criticized him. the other end like in XY where everyone is cool with him and admire his character in some form or meet somwhere in the middle like AG/BW (Iris did the **** talking, Cilan did the praising)
2: There's plenty of battles where Ash just wins because he's skilled enough in that instance to do so
3: Well that's kinda the crux in most shonen protags, characters like Luffy, Naruto, etc all have that trait of not turning to the dark side or whatever

I wasn't trying to say that Ash embodies all of them. He does qualify as 3, though. 1 applies sometimes, and 2 should be replaced by inconsistency.

3: Well that's kinda the crux in most shonen protags, characters like Luffy, Naruto, etc all have that trait of not turning to the dark side or whatever

...Which is one more reason why shonen protagonist aren't usually great characters, perhaps?

Paul always acted so condescending, rude, and mean to Ash, with Ash's response being anger or frustration: they felt more like actual enemies than real rivals to me--

Just wondering. Why is it a problem to have an actual enemy?

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Just wondering. Why is it a problem to have an actual enemy?

Nothing wrong with it in theory, but the two never felt like real rivals to me: more like complete enemies than rivals working towards achieving the same goal. Ash and Gary felt more like rivals to me when they faced off-- Paul and Ash had much better battles, but looking back, I never felt like they were true rivals until the end of DP.

 

[Soniman]

...Which is one more reason why shonen protagonist aren't usually great characters, perhaps?

Well that's what im saying, im not really expecting a child show like Pokemon to give me progressive character development with several layers off depth, I just enjoy what's presented to me and try to work with that.

 

[Incendiary Revenant]

Nothing wrong with it in theory, but the two never felt like real rivals to me: more like complete enemies than rivals working towards achieving the same goal. Ash and Gary felt more like rivals to me when they faced off-- Paul and Ash had much better battles, but looking back, I never felt like they were true rivals until the end of DP.

Also take into account that Paul was much different than Gary, he berated his Pokemon whenever they lost, and was far nastier to Ash and friends than Gary was. The only redeeming trait about him (until the end) was that he behaved respectfully when he obtained his badges, but other than that he was an extremely unkind teenager.

 

[TheFonz]

Nothing wrong with it in theory, but the two never felt like real rivals to me: more like complete enemies than rivals working towards achieving the same goal. Ash and Gary felt more like rivals to me when they faced off-- Paul and Ash had much better battles, but looking back, I never felt like they were true rivals until the end of DP.

It was stated they had the same goal to win the league and beat the Champion. The whole point of the rivalry was they were complete opposites at first then learned from each other as the series went on

 

[Aegiscalibur]

Well that's what im saying, im not really expecting a child show like Pokemon to give me progressive character development with several layers off depth, I just enjoy what's presented to me and try to work with that.

I don't expect anything either, but I can't really force myself to enjoy a show when it isn't great, or praise a character when he isn't great. To everything what it deserves.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Also take into account that Paul was much different than Gary, he berated his Pokemon whenever they lost, and was far nastier to Ash and friends than Gary was. The only redeeming trait about him (until the end) was that he behaved respectfully when he obtained his badges, but other than that he was an extremely unkind teenager.

Yeah, pretty much this-- describes my thoughts in a nutshell, really.

It was stated they had the same goal to win the league and beat the Champion. The whole point of the rivalry was they were complete opposites at first then learned from each other as the series went on

Yeah, of course: that much was already assumed, man.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean I liked their rivalry or consider it good because while them being polar opposites was great, Paul didn't have to be so mean toward him at the same time-- he could have been more respectful towards him, but he wasn't.

 

[thenightmareinducer16]

I have a question to ask you. Are you Serena haters or just obsessed with her? There is no need to bring her in every thread here.

People aren't "haters" or "obsessed" with her because they criticize her.