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Why do people think Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by pokefandt, Apr 30, 2014.

  1. TheFonz

    TheFonz Pokemon Semi-Master

    Fair enough. Paul was pretty damn brutal at a certain point in the series

    Also, it's nice to see that people are being nicer in the discussion now and we're all finding common ground
     
  2. Soniman

    Soniman Break the Limit

    Which is why im confused given the some folks act kind of bitter towards the show in general, id imagine at that point you would just stop watching it? What's the point of waiting for the next episode when you already know you probably wont like it? Or follow this main character that you also dont even like despite the fact that 50% of the show at least is centered around him?
     
  3. thenightmareinducer16

    thenightmareinducer16 Active Member

    If I really hated the show, I wouldn't know as much as I do about it, would I?

    Some of us are expecting improvement.

    Ash is not the only character in the show.
     
  4. Soniman

    Soniman Break the Limit

    Yeah but speaking personally I couldnt really enjoy show and it's good side characters if I didnt at least tolerate the main character you know? Though others can easily ignore Ash and enjoy it's other aspects and I get that
     
  5. Aegiscalibur

    Aegiscalibur Add Witty Title Here

    General knowledge, meta-analysis, overturning nostalgia, possible "so bad it's good" vibes.

    Well, it's not like you should watch every single episode. I haven't.
     
  6. Emperor Empoleon

    Emperor Empoleon Honor of Kalos

    Didn't Ash pull ghost pranks on Misty while he was dead?

    I really don't remember him being that mature. At least, not any more than AG & above. He's always had kiddish quirks.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
    Lord Trollbias likes this.
  7. thenightmareinducer16

    thenightmareinducer16 Active Member

    Your point? Every kid has pulled pranks before.

    Yes, he has kiddish quirks. That doesn't mean someone can't be mature. Even adults have childlike traits.
     
  8. Exactly, and once he saw how heartbroken Misty was, he stopped and decided to cut the act.

    Exactly, man: plus, Ash IS a kid. He SHOULD act his age sometimes, IMO!
     
  9. thenightmareinducer16

    thenightmareinducer16 Active Member

    ^Instead he comes off as a sort of mini-adult character of sorts, making his kiddish moments all the more immature and jarring.
     
  10. I couldn't agree more, man. *claps*
     
  11. Emperor Empoleon

    Emperor Empoleon Honor of Kalos

    That Ash in Kanto wasn't really that much more mature than how he acts in subsequent generations. He still had an excitable, rash and fun loving nature to him, and could sometimes be inconsiderate.

    So I don't buy him being "more mature and less of an idiot".

    Again, I said no more mature than AG and thereafter. Not necessarily that he was outright immature. He showed maturity in Kanto plenty of times, but he does that later on too.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  12. Soniman

    Soniman Break the Limit

    No he doesnt? Even in DP/XY he doesn't come off as that, he's shown at being good at Pokemon training and having general know-how and maturity on the subject be he has still been consistently shown as being rather innocent and somewhat ignorant in more "adult" things like romance and the like, that's never changed. He's always been something of a kid at heart no matter how good of a trainer he becomes and all the lessons he's learned so I dont think it's jarring at all
     
  13. thenightmareinducer16

    thenightmareinducer16 Active Member

    Not by much, but there is a difference. And Soniman's post below only further proves that. In Kanto, he knew the concepts of love and mating. In later sagas, the concepts completely elude him.
     
  14. Soniman

    Soniman Break the Limit

    He knew about the concept of love for one episode in Kanto before that dropped completley and he was made into his usual dense self, it popped up again in Bye Bye Butterfree and then disappeared just as quickly
     
  15. thenightmareinducer16

    thenightmareinducer16 Active Member

    It wasn't one episode only. Whenever he was teased about Misty, he would instantly go into denial, showing he knew what was being implied. And he was flustered by his kiss with Melody in Movie 2000. He was not nearly as dense as he is now.
     
  16. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    I constantly see Ash being referred as someone who "stops existing" in every new saga with new alternate personification of him taking place in new region he travels through.

    Making me wonder , does there exist any particular reason to divide whats been basically same character through sagas. Acting like Ash in each new region is "completely different person", "different incarnation" of what was followed before?

    Ash as character certainly went through some changes which manifested through certain personality traits being toned down, or more emphasized about. Alongside gaining some new characteristics inherent to behavior like becoming more humble, responsible or levelheaded.

    Now whether someone would consider this character development or derailment is debatable, but Ash in essence has never changed to such drastic degree in upcoming sagas that you could get impression of following someone completely different which uses same design.

    With me personally viewing Ash as same character introduced since day 1 who over the years changed whether for better or worse. But never to the point of losing his core, essence which defined him.

    Ash was never really reset in characterization either until Unova series imo. Through Johto, Hoenn or Sinnoh he felt like he was progressively growing as person and trainer . With new start being only evinced through starting with just Pikachu. And Pikachu himself because of some ridiculously forced plotline being toned down in strength(such as TR mega magnet which absorbed his electricity causing to not be able to emit electric energy messing up his strength, because of being exhausted, or devoid of power by Zekrom). To not came of as too strong at beginning of series.

    However Pikachu reset =/= always Ash reset in skills necessarily.

    To be honest Ash wasn't much sarcastic and impulsive in Hoenn either, not compared to OS. Partially because of maturing and becoming less stubborn. But on good part also because of different characters with different personalities and quirks following him around. Not having counterweight on opposing side which would question Ash motives or training skills, bring in question his ego and overconfidence at times. Or tease him and evoke that humble, selfless and devoted side through compassion, understanding and preventing him from getting ridged. At least not to same degree like other characters would.

    There is a reason why with characters like Gary and moreso Misty Ash displayed more of that childish, sarcastic side of his infront of them. With this characters giving him more inducement and reason to react to their provocations, unselfish acts or witty remarks than it would be case with someone like Dawn, Serena or Clemont for example.

    Making Ash characterization look forced and artificial if he acted abruptly and impulsive in front of characters which dont deliver acts to cause such behavior. Being required two way alley to produce organic, unforced and endearing dynamic between characters.

    Which should be took in account when discussing why Ash may be less joking and bratty than he used to be. Because surrounding and who you interact with can influence your characterization more than some would think as i mentioned before in this thread.

    To be fair though someone being kid doesn't always necessarily mean he will act like kid. In real life there are plenty of examples where child acts more mature for his age than he/she should. Or grow up prematurely in emotional sense and starts being more selfreliant because of various life situations, family or environment they may ve placed in.

    Its no secret that some children mature faster than others depending on individual.

    For example May and Misty when leaving cast and after getting follow up in specials acted more like girls in teenage years rather than 10 year old kids growing up in some aspects(balancing out both immature, childish and more independent, tough side of theirs gained through journey).

    So Ash acting more mature than he should for his age isn't something unordinary if he emotionally developed as person compared to his early days wuthout necessarily aging.
     
  17. True, but he still had moments where he was sarcastic and impulsive outside of battles in Hoenn, which is why I don't mind him there (that grin when Max is getting pecked was hilarious, for example)-- I agree there.

    True, which is why Ash tended to be more interesting to say the least when he had those two around: with the latter three, he's as dull and generic as watching paint dry, honestly.

    Agreed.

    He still jokes about being hungry at times, but other than that, yeah. True, but there's more to it than just the company he keeps: he still did get angry at times and emotional as well-- his interactions tended to be far more interesting in the past than they have been since...DP...at least.

    Yeah, I agree: I'm just saying, Ash should act like a kid at times, since he's 10 years old.

    True.

    Agreed.

    He didn't emotionally develop though: he lost a lot of that emotion and became too subdued for his own good.
     
  18. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't say he lost emotion necessary, its more that Ash displays his feelings and passionate side of character in different,what i personally consider more "grown up way".

    To shorten this ill put it under spoiler.

    Ash still showed lot of selfless care and love toward his friends and pokemon in Sinnoh, Unova or Kalos. Such as in taking beating to reach Chimchar heart, enduring shocks, scratches and bites by Pikachu who was under control of Colress machine or Malamar hypnosis not giving up and believing how their bond cant be break through artificial means. Risked his life to approach infuriorated mega Garchomp not thinking of his own safety but how to help hurt and disturbed pokemon.

    Tried to cheer Dawn up for example when being under depression, more recently encouraged Clemont to fight for himself and take back control of gym when Citroid malfunctioned,. Or bonded with small kid from kindergarten who was afraid of pokemon trying to reassure him how everything will be ok needing to work as team to escape TR and release captured pokemon(moment i found to be pretty sweet coming from Ash side).

    Showed that genuine and honest side of himself several times of not wanting to have shortcuts in his achievements and work hard for everything he gets. Like refusing to evolve his Gligar with razor fang Gary offered to solve issue of fearing to fly and maintenance balance. Teaching his pokemon how to overcome its struggles and fears through own strength and effort instead of reaching for easy ways. Which brought fruits on table when they got together locked in cage with Ash fruitlessly smashing in cage bars evoking in his pokemon desire to do the same and develop courage he lacked before.

    That goofy and absentminded side of his when bored of fashion and Dawn eagerness to go shopping or browsing windows. Falling asleep on classes, getting on nerves to Angie.

    Revealed to still have that impulsive, stubborn side of himself being consumed with desire to defeat Paul just to get crushed in match falling in despondent streak. Blaming himself how emotions got worst out of him completely overlooking how his Grotle wasn't adaptable to his new body and size not taking in account how his pokemon may feel.

    When arguing with girls like Dawn over training pokemon, battling skills when both got paired up in tag battle for example or in getting to gym before contests. Or rivals like Trip, TR, Barry etc.

    Being impatient of challenging gym leaders, having big appetite. Falling sometime for other people tricks presenting characteristics of naivety etc. Mixed with hotheaded, spirited side of his being persistent not backing down to challenge which has always make big part of his character.


    Way i see it at core Ash is still that caring, unselfish, sometime absentminded and enthusiastic character. Having his hotheaded, stubborn and naive side. Showing fascination and interest in his friends hobbies and gadgets like its case with Clemont, and taking role of being like guardian in group.
    Revealing some new sides which deceloped and became characteristic for him due to maturing. Being most experienced and knowledgeable member in cast giving to others encouragement and advices over training pokemon, bonding with them or how to deal with TR and dangerous situations. Serving as inspiration and mentor, which is especially prevalent with current cast.

    Granted we can say how Ash "lost" some of that childish behavior and impulsive demeanor he used to display on more frequent basis not just because of different situations and characters which surround him influencing his behabvoor. But also ecause of growing and changing perspective on how he views world and people around himself.

    Due to various experiences, unknown situations, new cultures, friends and people leaving effect on him and molding personality.

    For example Jaden from Yugioh GX was depicted at start of series and good portion of his run as goofy,cheerful and optimistic character. Someone who liked to make jokes, irritate other people and show cocky behavior at times. He was scatter brained, lazy to be focused on teachings when attending classes taking things lightly.

    But after encounter with various villains, numerous duels where his soul and his friends life was on stake he began to change(especially after incidents in dimension world during 3rd season).

    In 4th season Jaden as once upbeat and reckless guy changed largely his oulook on life. Becoming cynical, whitdrawn in himself and serious showing a lot less emotion and his childish side than he used to have. Stopped enjoying in dueling much anymore and most of all wanted to distance himself from other friends he made on academy. Knowing that he will only expose them to danger if he sticks around.

    Thats just one of numerous examples i could give from anime or TV shows where characters due to various new changes, situations and both bad and good moments theyre exposed to can change way they act, think and evaluate certain things.

    Drawing parallel with real life and how environment or various stages we go through can mold our personality and interests due to process of growing up. Or because of having to deal with trauma and struggles, develop new skills, knowledge in dealing with new challenges life throws at us. And while at core deep down we retain what defined us as individuals, as time passes and we grow up maturing our personality, way of thinking, interests and moral values change. Be it for better or worse depending on circumstances and our own strength.

    Same can be to extent applied in Ash case. While pokemon series aren't very good in providing deep, consistent and spectacular development. It can still be present and showed with some of its protagonists growing in rather creative and admiring way(especially female companions) for this show standards.

    With Ash going through stages of maturing and developing as person and trainer as well, thus resulting in acting differently than he used to do.

    It just happens that writers can be scarse, inconsistent and predictable as far as his development goes. With Ash not losing so much personality in Sinnoh series(in fact i think he had lot of it), but in more being unbalanced in expressing his thoughts, emotions and various endearing sides of character. With writers sometime putting too much empohasis on his passion for training, battling and proving yourself and your own methods to others, that other relatable and quality aspects of character tended to be overshadowed at times.

    Something i think is treated in more balanced and consistent way now in XY series. Having Ash radiate with more competent, mature characterization feeling like he learned things and became more experienced during past journeys, while still showing to have goofy, hotheaded and passionate attitude.

    Sure he may not be impulsive and joking as he used to be when he was completely immature just starting out which is understandable because of obviously maturing and becoming more responsible compared to his starting days. Accompanied with different characters which surrounding him igniting different, new forms of characterization going between them and Ash with their interests and acts invoking different reactions(already covered that portion in previous posts).

    But regardless of that Ash is still brimming in my opinion with lot of spirit, humor, symphatetic flaws and imperfections going for his character accompanied with persistent, caring and daring nature of his.

    Feeling realistic, enjoyable and sympathetic to follow.

    p.s. This post wasn't intended to be this long, so my apologies for that. Its just i got a lot on my mind to say.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  19. Not a problem at all, man: you raise very good points here, but it's just that I feel like his emotion has gotten a lot more subdued-- maybe it's expressed in a more mature way, I suppose, but we don't see Ash going crazy like he used to in grief when his Mom was kidnapped, or when he carried Mewtwo on his back, froze with his Pokemon in caves, etc. I feel it's more a writing change towards the character making him a lot less witty, sarcastic, joking around, and more or less taking the battling aspect of the character too far without compensating for the depth of said character-- AG did a good balance between the two, but DP and XY aren't doing it for me-- I suppose XY does a better job of this than DP did, but he feels so...bland and empty at the same time...like he's just another shonen hero now with no defining characters that make him unique or stand out from others these days.
     
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  20. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    I can understand and respect why you may feel that way.

    Because moments such as Ash freezing in cave with his pokemon for example used to be more evoking and touching to see imo as well, than its case when helping Chimchar to overcome his trauma, helping Hippopotas, his Pikachu when injured, Froakie etc. But in general that passion, emotion and care from Ash character can still be found in his acts toward pokemon, moments of risking life etc.

    They are just portrayed differently because of different writing style and different situations Ash has found himseklf into i suppose.
    Expressing emotions and thoughts in different, more "grown up way".

    As for Ash more goofy, joking side of his character as evidenced with characters like Bonnie or Clemont, Cilan etc regardless of writing style staff knows how to write sich traits and decant them on screen in believable, engaging way.

    However as far as Ash characterization goes i believe lack of more temperament, rude aspect of him can be interpretated as writers desire to go somewhere with their creation. Push main protagonist forward maturing, becoming more collected, polished and selfaware of his flaws.
    Giving out impression to viewers how Ash character and story has evolved since early days with journey molding him as person changing abit becauise of that. Representing natural way of changing and becoming beither better or sometime unfortunately worse person when growing up and dealing with issies or tasks put infront of you.

    Ash can still joke and be witty, but reason why it happens scarcely nowadays is also because of current characters or ones in DP not really containing that passion, fire, sarcasm or strongwilled, impulsive nature which would put Ash at corner. Question his motives, abilities and interest to awaken in him that more rude, temperament side or prompt him in reciprocating back when throwing inciting comments.

    Since without clash, drama or tension produced from other side, its not to expect that character is going to act abruptly for no reason making it look awkward and contrived.

    Regardless there is more to Ash appeal than just this for me. With character still having many outstanding qualities and personality traits specific for his character. He has huge love for pokemon being willing to even go as far in sacrificing his life if needed for greater good. Posess lot of passion, fire and selfless love in taking care of his pokemon and treating them as partners. Has big competitive fire and adventurous enthusiasm circulating through his veins in wanting to become strongest trainer out there. Which several of this qualities leaving strong impression on other characters as noticed with Cilan or Clemont, even Serena(though motives behind this are of entirely different nature), prompting them in wanting to join and learn from him throiugh out joiurney.
    Admiring his determination, steadiness, caring nature and spirit.

    Tend to be laid back, humorous and goofy often taking things for granted,. Forgetting to pay attention to small details and be more observiant(something E4 Bertha pointed out during battle against his Torterra). Can be rash, imulsive and stubborn rushing into match without thinking or even act selfish sometime. When food, battling or training pokemon is in question.

    But also has lot of understanding and support for his friends being there to help them out when needed.

    Such as in Pokevision episode initially rather wanting to train and practice with his pokemon, but quickly deciding to renounce ion that to help SErena, Clemont and Bonnie in filming. Finding his training can wait being more important to be there for your friends.

    Coming of as full of life and energy character imo.

    But i guess there is no point in beating dead horse anymore, and i feel we are starting to repeat ourselves. So while i can understand and accept your frustrazion and displease over way Ash is treated nowadays, to me as character he is still full of life and energy.

    Respecting, but having different view and opinion about Ash personality and substance he has(especially as far as XY goes).
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2014

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