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Why do people think Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh?

charizardfan

Well-Known Member
1) It was VERY pleasant for all of us who watch the English dub to have to listen to it.
That still doesn’t answer my question as to why the dubbed voice of a character should matter. It’s a dub. Unless I absolutely have to, I don’t form any opinions on character’s based on anything but the original version.

Frankly, I think Ash's voice in either dub is inferior to the Japanese version, so why should it matter to me what he sounds like in English?

DP004, anyone? Arguing with Dawn like a 5 year old made him so much better than AG Ash. The more I go back to DP, the less I like Ash in it, too.
Unlike the episode where Ash and May got into their big argument Ash actually had a good reason to be annoyed with Dawn, who was just as much at fault as he was. I don’t even think that was DP Ash’s best episode by a long shot, but it hardly compares to the way he endangered everyone in AG178.

Ash was happy to learn from others at any point...really?
There are several episodes in DP where Ash asks someone to train him or takes a lesson based on someone else’s battle style. He even takes a lesson from one of his rival’s Pokemon.

Of course he took Brawly seriously! That's why he lost-- due to arrogance.
The fact that he lost due to arrogance seriously undermines the statement that “he took Brawly seriously”, which he didn’t. It took a bad loss to force Ash to realize that he shouldn’t have underestimated Brawly in the first place. And let’s not forget that he got one of his Pokemon injured because of this.

DP Ash, while never actually losing his trademark confidence, nonetheless realized that Gym Leaders were strong without needing to put one of his Pokemon through hell in order to realize it. Accordingly, he planned ahead for several of them, thought out what Pokemon he'd be using, and frequently trained them so that they'd be in top shape when the time came for the battle.

Yes, that's been something Ash has done since Kanto, thank you.
The difference being that Ash in Kanto was an inexperienced rookie who had yet to fully grasp the fact the world was a big place filled with many strong trainers and he had a lot to learn if he planned on being successful, which was something Ash was only going to learn on his Pokemon journey. By the time we get to AG, Ash had participated in two regional Leagues and gone through three regions, and had learned this lesson many times over. But even if you want to make excuses for Brawly (which even I do), the fact that Ash continued to act this way two Gym battles later and in the episode with Drake just negates not only the development Ash went through in the OS but in that very same series as well.

No, a flat, stiff battle obsessed freak isn't a character worth sympathizing with.
Which is why I find it increasingly hard to sympathize with AG’s Ash, who often had to learn the same lessons about arrogance more than once and constantly whined about getting to his next Gym battle to the point where he’d unfairly snap at his traveling companions when he thought they were holding him back, and even had to be convinced to make allowances for May's Contest journey. Meanwhile, DP Ash mostly accommodates Dawn's journey as well as his own, agreeing to make stops so that she can get her ribbon. Unlike the AG episodes where he'd be training his Pokemon instead of supporting May in her Contests, he actually sat down and watched Dawn compete. He visibly invested in her journey, even getting upset when she lost her second Contest in a row. So really, between the two, it's not DP Ash who was the "battle obsessed freak". At least, not more so than any other incarnation.

That’s not to say Ash can’t have his flaws. Even DP Ash had flaws, mostly apparent whenever Paul showed up and Ash would allow his emotions and desire to prove himself, his Pokemon, and his beliefs to override his better judgement. But even this comes from a more sympathetic and understandable place, considering that Ash’s strong bond with his Pokemon has always been one of the character’s most fundamental traits and he wasn’t in the wrong for thinking the way he did. The best part of that, however, was that - unlike AG’s Ash and his arrogance - this had never seriously happened to Ash before. We had never gotten a recurring rival who challenged any main character on that level. It was a new situation Ash was placed in and had to adapt to, which went a long way towards revitalizing and developing the character after four years of AG. If Ash ever got stale and repetitive before BW, it was in AG. DP actually gave Ash a fresh and new storyline with a well thought-out antagonist to oppose him.

5) Good for you, because obviously you can't address that part-- that's the stupidity here.
Actually it’s stupid because DP saw Ash participate and show interest in things that had little to do with strict battling. Nice try, though.
 
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That still doesn’t answer my question as to why the dubbed voice of a character should matter. It’s a dub. Unless I absolutely have to, I don’t form any opinions on character’s based on anything but the original version.

Frankly, I think Ash's voice in either dub is inferior to the Japanese version, so why should it matter to me what he sounds like in English?

Unlike the episode where Ash and May got into their big argument Ash actually had a good reason to be annoyed with Dawn, who was just as much at fault as he was. I don’t even think that was DP Ash’s best episode by a long shot, but it hardly compares to the way he endangered everyone in AG178.

There are several episodes in DP where Ash asks someone to train him or takes a lesson based on someone else’s battle style. He even takes a lesson from one of his rival’s Pokemon.

The fact that he lost due to arrogance seriously undermines the statement that “he took Brawly seriously”, which he didn’t. It took a bad loss to force Ash to realize that he shouldn’t have underestimated Brawly in the first place. And let’s not forget that he got one of his Pokemon injured because of this.

DP Ash, while never actually losing his trademark confidence, nonetheless realized that Gym Leaders were strong without needing to put one of his Pokemon through hell in order to realize it. Accordingly, he planned ahead for several of them, thought out what Pokemon he'd be using, and frequently trained them so that they'd be in top shape when the time came for the battle.

The difference being that Ash in Kanto was an inexperienced rookie who had yet to fully grasp the fact the world was a big place filled with many strong trainers and he had a lot to learn if he planned on being successful, which was something Ash was only going to learn on his Pokemon journey. By the time we get to AG, Ash had participated in two regional Leagues and gone through three regions, and had learned this lesson many times over. But even if you want to make excuses for Brawly (which even I do), the fact that Ash continued to act this way two Gym battles later and in the episode with Drake just negates not only the development Ash went through in the OS but in that very same series as well.

Which is why I find it increasingly hard to sympathize with AG’s Ash, who often had to learn the same lessons about arrogance more than once and constantly whined about getting to his next Gym battle to the point where he’d unfairly snap at his traveling companions when he thought they were holding him back, and even had to be convinced to make allowances for May's Contest journey. Meanwhile, DP Ash mostly accommodates Dawn's journey as well as his own, agreeing to make stops so that she can get her ribbon. Unlike the AG episodes where he'd be training his Pokemon instead of supporting May in her Contests, he actually sat down and watched Dawn compete. He visibly invested in her journey, even getting upset when she lost her second Contest in a row. So really, between the two, it's not DP Ash who was the "battle obsessed freak". At least, not more so than any other incarnation.

That’s not to say Ash can’t have his flaws. Even DP Ash had flaws, mostly apparent whenever Paul showed up and Ash would allow his emotions and desire to prove himself, his Pokemon, and his beliefs to override his better judgement. But even this comes from a more sympathetic and understandable place, considering that Ash’s strong bond with his Pokemon has always been one of the character’s most fundamental traits and he wasn’t in the wrong. The best part of that, however, was that - unlike AG’s Ash and his arrogance - this had never seriously happened before. We had never gotten a recurring rival who challenged a main character on that level. It was a new situation Ash was placed in and had to adapt to, which went a long way towards revitalizing and growing the character after four years of AG. If Ash ever got stale and repetitive before BW, it was in AG. DP actually gave Ash a fresh and new storyline with a well thought-out rival.

Actually it’s stupid because DP saw Ash participate and show interest in things that had little to do with strict battling. Nice try, though.

It certainly matters to me, seeing as I'm an English dub fan, but that said this will go nowhere so I'll stop here.

Ash had a good reason to be angry with May as well: she was just as much at fault as he was back in AG, so that's not true. The other part, I'll give you, though.

When does he do this outside of wanting to improve his battling skills, though? Being an excellent trainer doesn't make the character good at all.

Of course he took Brawly seriously: the problem was that he pushed Treecko too far. You know what, though? This shows that he is a HUMAN: he is a FLAWED individual-- he makes mistakes, he learns from them, and THAT is something that is truly relate-able for me.

I never said I liked DP Ash's overconfidence, did I? I agree on the rest, though.

Unfairly snapping, again, shows that AG Ash was not some perfect character who didn't require improvement: that is something that anyone can understand. We all get angry at times, but it's what we choose to do after that...that is what makes us truly good or bad people.

Agree on him actually watching Dawn's contests, though.

No, DP Ash was way more battle obsessed than the previous incarnations of Ash, by far: he barely interacted with his long time best friend, Brock, outside of asking him for advice on battles-- that's not a true friend: that's selfish. At least in AG, he would battle with him and they'd have genuinely good interactions as friends.

If emotions and desire are the real flaws with DP Ash, then I frankly don't want to know his strong points: everyone has them, and everyone needs them in order to improve themselves, regardless of what you may believe. No, Ash went stale in DP before he did in AG, for several reasons such as piss poor chemistry with his best friend Brock, his selfishness, his lack of willing to sacrifice himself for others, and being a bad rehash of AG Ash in a lot of ways as well.

That happened plenty of times in AG as well, most notably the PokeRinger which again happened in DP.
 

Shiny-Psyduck

Well-Known Member
Well his character has lasted for over 800 episodes; it's bound to get repetitive. Brock got incredibly dull after AG. If anything they saved Misty, May, and Dawn's characters by writing them off the main cast. It allows people to speculate and be imaginative about how they've developed offscreen.
 

teamaquagrunt

Active Member
charizardfan said:
That still doesn’t answer my question as to why the dubbed voice of a character should matter. It’s a dub. Unless I absolutely have to, I don’t form any opinions on character’s based on anything but the original version.

Frankly, I think Ash's voice in either dub is inferior to the Japanese version, so why should it matter to me what he sounds like in English?

Whoa. Okay, see, it might not matter to you, but for a lot of people who prefer dubs, voices can really kill an anime or game for them. Not everyone loves to hear stuff in different languages and have to read the subtitles. And when the voices change *that much* it takes away from the quality and what people think of the character. They really could have tried to find a more similar sounding voice actress.

charizardfan said:
Unlike the episode where Ash and May got into their big argument Ash actually had a good reason to be annoyed with Dawn, who was just as much at fault as he was. I don’t even think that was DP Ash’s best episode by a long shot, but it hardly compares to the way he endangered everyone in AG178.

Both Ash and May were being annoying to *each other.* He did have a good reason for being annoyed, she was taking a while. Real people can get annoyed about things like that. There were a few times Ash snapped in AG, and it was usually because either A. He had somewhere to go, that badge ain’t getting itself! I mean maybe if they had cars he wouldn't have to be in a rush so much! Or B. He was starving. And for people like May and Max who easily get distracted and bother him when they want a break or get hungry, sometimes he snapped. It made sense. I think most people would snap in those situations, those two could get veryyyy annoying.

charizardfan said:
Meanwhile, DP Ash mostly accommodates Dawn's journey as well as his own, agreeing to make stops so that she can get her ribbon. Unlike the AG episodes where he'd be training his Pokemon instead of supporting May in her Contests, he actually sat down and watched Dawn compete. He visibly invested in her journey, even getting upset when she lost her second Contest in a row. So really, between the two, it's not DP Ash who was the "battle obsessed freak". At least, not more so than any other incarnation.

True, that part was done very well. But I also think that the planning was done better in general with the contests and the gyms. Either the two paths didn't conflict in Sinnoh as they did in Hoenn, or Brock and Ash planned around it much better than they did in Hoenn

charizardfan said:
The best part of that, however, was that - unlike AG’s Ash and his arrogance - this had never seriously happened before. We had never gotten a recurring rival who challenged a main character on that level. It was a new situation Ash was placed in and had to adapt to, which went a long way towards revitalizing and growing the character after four years of AG. If Ash ever got stale and repetitive before BW, it was in AG. DP actually gave Ash a fresh and new storyline with a well thought-out rival.

OK this bothers me a bit because this is why I feel that DP Ash has been reset & personality changed. Yes he had a rival and it did make him adapt. But WHY did he have this rival? He constantly felt he had something to prove to Paul. His strategies even showed that he was playing around with Paul (full battle in the league with the exact same pokemon he did the first time around? He was playing that kid so bad. He could've brought out the powerhouses, but nope, wanted to show Paul a lesson). He had nothing to prove to him though! He already had a bunch of badges! He already challenged a bunch of leagues! He didn't have to be this kid's friend! I seriously think, that in DP, Ash lost something very important to him. They toned down his arrogance and his BS limit. Because AG Ash would've socked Paul. And he would've gotten away with it too because May wasn't there to stop him.

See, Ash wasn't designed as the type of character that took BS from people like that, I really felt that. In Kanto he loved trolling people, take the fact he lost to Brock- instead of training like an actual trainer, he decides to super charge his Pikachu to show Brock up (I really think Brock's dad was trolling Brock here too). This is also the kid who wore a skeleton mask in the middle of a fog and gave Brock & Misty a heart attack. And in AG he was about to punch a kid who didn't want to hang around him and his Pikachu. He's a kid who didn't give Drew the light of day and thought he was a jerk. You're telling me this is the kid who sits patiently listening to all the criticism and Paul flat out telling him he sucks all the time? Yeah no!

Dwail8023 said:
Unfairly snapping, again, shows that AG Ash was not some perfect character who didn't require improvement: that is something that anyone can understand. We all get angry at times, but it's what we choose to do after that...that is what makes us truly good or bad people.

THANK YOU. His anger and cockiness and BS limit was so relateable and was what made me like him so much. It made him great character in my honest opinion. AG wasn't a perfect series, but it was a direct continuation of the previous series, whereas DP didn't feel that way to me at all.
 

charizardfan

Well-Known Member
Dwail8023 said:
When does he do this outside of wanting to improve his battling skills, though?
He participated in two Pokemon Contests, displayed a big interest in Sinnoh’s mythology and joined his friends at the museums to learn more about it, and joined up in other tournaments that had little to do with actual battling (e.g. Ping-Pong) but he clearly enjoyed doing nonetheless. His character development is tied to his journey, like any other character’s, but Ash himself did display an interest in other things throughout DP.

Being an excellent trainer doesn't make the character good at all.
I never said it did.

Of course he took Brawly seriously: the problem was that he pushed Treecko too far.
You missed the part earlier in the episode where Ash took Brawly lightly because of his laid-back attitude. What you’re talking about happened later in the episode, where we realize that Ash was wrong to judge Brawly the way he did, where Ash pushes Treecko past its limit. Not because he had taken Brawly seriously as a Gym Leader beforehand, but because his pride wouldn’t allow him to admit that he was beaten and Treecko ended up paying the price for it.

You know what, though? This shows that he is a HUMAN: he is a FLAWED individual-- he makes mistakes, he learns from them, and THAT is something that is truly relate-able for me.
Flaws are easy to add to a character. The trick is how to give your character those flaws while not allowing them to overshadow their redeeming points - something I don’t think AG pulled off well with Ash at all, which is why he’s not very sympathetic.

And it’s hard to believe anything Ash learned from that debacle really stuck when he went ahead and underestimated yet another Gym Leader two Gyms later.

I never said I liked DP Ash's overconfidence, did I? I agree on the rest, though.
DP Ash rarely, if ever, got overconfident in the same way AG Ash did in the Brawly episode or the Drake one, and certainly never behaved as terribly as in the first Brandon episode.

No, DP Ash was way more battle obsessed than the previous incarnations of Ash, by far: he barely interacted with his long time best friend, Brock, outside of asking him for advice on battles-- that's not a true friend: that's selfish. At least in AG, he would battle with him and they'd have genuinely good interactions as friends.
On the few occasions where Brock did get focus in DP Ash supported him however he could. Their lack of interaction had more to do with the fact that DP didn’t really make use of Brock in general. Meanwhile, AG Ash actually skipped some of May’s Contests in order to train his own Pokemon. DP Ash is not the selfish one.

If emotions and desire are the real flaws with DP Ash, then I frankly don't want to know his strong points: everyone has them, and everyone needs them in order to improve themselves, regardless of what you may believe.
... what on Earth does that have to do with anything I said? Ash having emotions wasn’t the problem - in fact, it was the emotional bond Ash had with his Pokemon that brought about the circumstances that allowed Ash and Infernape to win over Paul in their final battle - it was allowing those emotions to overcome his better judgement (e.g. letting Grotle battle against Honchrow, despite its obvious type advantage). That was a consistent flaw Ash displayed whenever Paul came around, and it was understandable given his character and the fact that Ash had never dealt with anyone quite like Paul on a frequent basis and had to learn to adapt to it.

No, Ash went stale in DP before he did in AG, for several reasons such as piss poor chemistry with his best friend Brock, his selfishness, his lack of willing to sacrifice himself for others, and being a bad rehash of AG Ash in a lot of ways as well.
Again, what? Ash was constantly willing to put himself in danger for others’ sake. DP003, DP020, DP071-072, DP081, DP090, DP163, and many others. He was willing to put his quest on hold for the sake of Dawn’s and actually supported her by watching all her Contests, even taking it hard himself when she was going through a difficult period.

Given the way AG Ash frequently prioritized his own Gym battles above what his friends might have wanted, and actually skipped out on watching some of May’s Contests to train his Pokemon (meanwhile, she watched all his Gym battles), I would say he was the selfish, battle-obsessed one.

teamaquagrunt said:
OK this bothers me a bit because this is why I feel that DP Ash has been reset & personality changed. Yes he had a rival and it did make him adapt. But WHY did he have this rival? He constantly felt he had something to prove to Paul.

Paul was the one who not only criticized Ash’s beliefs in what would make a Pokemon stronger, but would constantly back his statements up by proving himself a very strong trainer as well. Had Ash just defeated Paul in DP003 or DP006, I would agree with you. But since the first case was a draw and the latter was a loss, I actually do understand why Ash would want to beat him. It would validate Ash’s viewpoints on the issue not only to Paul, but to himself as well. I find that more relatable and sympathetic a motivation than anything Ash did in AG, and I don’t see how that proves a reset for him at all.

His strategies even showed that he was playing around with Paul (full battle in the league with the exact same pokemon he did the first time around? He was playing that kid so bad. He could've brought out the powerhouses, but nope, wanted to show Paul a lesson).
Ash explains his reasoning to use his Sinnoh Pokemon in their League battle as something both he and his Pokemon wanted, as a second chance after the 2-6 loss they took at Lake Acuity. It wasn’t about “playing” Paul, it was about proving that his way of training truly had merit to it. It showed the faith and trust that Ash had in the Pokemon he raised for the region, which was the argument he had represented the entire time and what made Paul challenge him in the first place.

He had nothing to prove to him though! He already had a bunch of badges! He already challenged a bunch of leagues! He didn't have to be this kid's friend!
The thing is, Paul had done all of that too. He’d journeyed through the three major regions Ash had, raised his own share of powerhouses, and had done so with a philosophy that completely contrasted with Ash’s. Again, had Ash just beaten him in their first meeting you’d have a point. But he didn’t.

You're telling me this is the kid who sits patiently listening to all the criticism and Paul flat out telling him he sucks all the time? Yeah no!
Except Ash never just took Paul’s criticism. I’m stunned you could have watched DP and seriously thought that. Ash got angry (he had to be held back by Brock in DP081), he argued back, and he challenged Paul to battles in order to prove his and his Pokemon’s strengths. He never allowed Paul to just get away with calling him and his Pokemon weak.
 
He participated in two Pokemon Contests, displayed a big interest in Sinnoh’s mythology and joined his friends at the museums to learn more about it, and joined up in other tournaments that had little to do with actual battling (e.g. Ping-Pong) but he clearly enjoyed doing nonetheless. His character development is tied to his journey, like any other character’s, but Ash himself did display an interest in other things throughout DP.


I never said it did.


You missed the part earlier in the episode where Ash took Brawly lightly because of his laid-back attitude. What you’re talking about happened later in the episode, where we realize that Ash was wrong to judge Brawly the way he did, where Ash pushes Treecko past its limit. Not because he had taken Brawly seriously as a Gym Leader beforehand, but because his pride wouldn’t allow him to admit that he was beaten and Treecko ended up paying the price for it.


Flaws are easy to add to a character. The trick is how to give your character those flaws while not allowing them to overshadow their redeeming points - something I don’t think AG pulled off well with Ash at all, which is why he’s not very sympathetic.

And it’s hard to believe anything Ash learned from that debacle really stuck when he went ahead and underestimated yet another Gym Leader two Gyms later.


DP Ash rarely, if ever, got overconfident in the same way AG Ash did in the Brawly episode or the Drake one, and certainly never behaved as terribly as in the first Brandon episode.


On the few occasions where Brock did get focus in DP Ash supported him however he could. Their lack of interaction had more to do with the fact that DP didn’t really make use of Brock in general. Meanwhile, AG Ash actually skipped some of May’s Contests in order to train his own Pokemon. DP Ash is not the selfish one.


... what on Earth does that have to do with anything I said? Ash having emotions wasn’t the problem - in fact, it was the emotional bond Ash had with his Pokemon that brought about the circumstances that allowed Ash and Infernape to win over Paul in their final battle - it was allowing those emotions to overcome his better judgement (e.g. letting Grotle battle against Honchrow, despite its obvious type advantage). That was a consistent flaw Ash displayed whenever Paul came around, and it was understandable given his character and the fact that Ash had never dealt with anyone quite like Paul on a frequent basis and had to learn to adapt to it.


Again, what? Ash was constantly willing to put himself in danger for others’ sake. DP003, DP020, DP071-072, DP081, DP090, DP163, and many others. He was willing to put his quest on hold for the sake of Dawn’s and actually supported her by watching all her Contests, even taking it hard himself when she was going through a difficult period.

Given the way AG Ash frequently prioritized his own Gym battles above what his friends might have wanted, and actually skipped out on watching some of May’s Contests to train his Pokemon (meanwhile, she watched all his Gym battles), I would say he was the selfish, battle-obsessed one.

He also participated in the Contest at the end of Battle Frontier and shared the win with May for the Ribbon. Right, so that's why Ash was stiff as paint at the museums all the time-- the Ping Pong Tournament was pure genius, after all. Too bad in all of them he never showed anything other than a bland, generic personality at best.

Fair enough.

My point is that eventually AG Ash realized this and it resolved itself, so you can't hold that against him.

I don't think DP pulled this off well at all-- he was almost TOO perfect, too flawless: there was no real human underneath there-- just an excellent trainer. So AG Ash wasn't sympathetic when he cried over Lucario's death, when he pushed May into that capsule and said not to worry, when he helped Tory overcome his fear of Pokemon, when he looked outside Treecko's room in the Pokemon Center and stayed up all night at times to help his Pokemon: that's not sympathy. Whining about losing to Paul, high fiving Dawn-- THAT's true sympathy. Not buying this for a second, sorry. One of AG Ash's greatest strengths was his sympathy for himself and others: similarly, this is one of DP Ash's greatest weaknesses as he lacked this.

I am not saying he was perfect, but eventually as the saga progressed he did catch on and learn from those mistakes.

DP Ash is indeed selfish when he couldn't interact with his best friend, Brock, after traveling with him for so long: what happened to that "man's gotta do" speech Brock made and then Ash said, "Yeah, that's what I like to hear!" crap they were spouting at the beginning? He simply trained instead of watching May's contests sometimes, but when he did watch May's contests (and he did do this as well, just not as much) he was sympathetic towards her.

Not a single one of those episodes had Ash putting himself in real danger for others other than his Pikachu or some Pokemon. That's not true character at all-- that's what a friend is expected to do for another.

Again, already addressed this point.
 
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teamaquagrunt

Active Member
charizardfan said:
But since the first case was a draw and the latter was a loss, I actually do understand why Ash would want to beat him. It would validate Ash’s viewpoints on the issue not only to Paul, but to himself as well. I find that more relatable and sympathetic a motivation than anything Ash did in AG, and I don’t see how that proves a reset for him at all.

Thing is, I found it to be a reset because I don't think Ash can change all that much. In AG he was very aggressive, I really feel like he would get physical with Paul, not try to solve this in a sort-of-friendly pokemon battle. That's why I felt he was toned down, and too much. Ash was a very physical kid in AG- like what I thought would have been more realistic, is that maybe he tries to punch him, Brock holds him back, and he never tries to see this kid again or instigate him or anything. Isn't that sort of what happened to Drew? My memory is awful, so.

charizardfan said:
Ash explains his reasoning to use his Sinnoh Pokemon in their League battle as something both he and his Pokemon wanted, as a second chance after the 2-6 loss they took at Lake Acuity. It wasn’t about “playing” Paul, it was about proving that his way of training truly had merit to it. It showed the faith and trust that Ash had in the Pokemon he raised for the region, which was the argument he had represented the entire time and what made Paul challenge him in the first place.

Yes, I heard Ash's reasoning, and I respect your opinion here. But I also think if Ash really wanted to he could have destroyed Paul by using some of his really tough pokemon. So I do feel like Ash played him. He didn't even turn around his hat, which he did in the battle after. That's why I totally think he wasn't completely serious.

charizardfan said:
The thing is, Paul had done all of that too. He’d journeyed through the three major regions Ash had, raised his own share of powerhouses, and had done so with a philosophy that completely contrasted with Ash’s. Again, had Ash just beaten him in their first meeting you’d have a point. But he didn’t.

Ahh, I think I'm not articulating myself well, I apologize. I felt like Ash had nothing to prove *because* they both got up to that point. They can meet in the league and duke it out then. But Ash goes out of his way to earn Paul's respect which I felt was unnecessary. I don't think I'm explaining this well. I felt AG Ash would not bother.

charizardfan said:
Except Ash never just took Paul’s criticism. I’m stunned you could have watched DP and seriously thought that. Ash got angry (he had to be held back by Brock in DP081), he argued back, and he challenged Paul to battles in order to prove his and his Pokemon’s strengths. He never allowed Paul to just get away with calling him and his Pokemon weak.

DAMMNNNN SON you got me there hahaha. OK you made me laugh, you're right, Ash was boiled over in anger a lot of the time. But still he would've tried beating him up sooner or would avoid him. I felt they forced Paul to continue to be his rival by making Ash try to talk to him so often which normally I felt like he wouldn't do. And Ash made lots of strange choices such as making Chimchar face Paul or see Paul or whatever so Ash can prove it wasn't weak--but Chimchar was abused and seeing Paul made it feel so much fear. I felt normally Ash would have been in sync with that and made Chimchar *not* face Paul anymore, instead of forcing Chimchar to. I hope I'm making sense, I'm a little tired, sorry.
 

charizardfan

Well-Known Member
Dwail8023 said:
My point is that eventually AG Ash realized this and it resolved itself, so you can hold that against him.
I can hold much of that against him, because he only went on to take future opponents lightly again (at least he doesn't get another Pokemon hurt, I guess). So what happened to that development?

I don't think DP pulled this off well at all-- he was almost TOO perfect, too flawless: there was no real human underneath there-- just an excellent trainer.
Except Ash wasn’t perfect or flawless at all in DP. There are many occasions where Ash would do something comically stupid (e.g. he and Angie bringing down their team’s score in DP088 because of their fighting, sleeping in class, etc.) and his more serious issues were frequently pointed out by Paul, who was never going to be defeated unless Ash and his Pokemon made the effort to improve and overcome them. The main difference was that DP Ash wasn’t learning the same lessons over and over, got the opportunity to prove he could be taken seriously, and demonstrated frequently that he did have his competent side. Your character doesn't always need to act like a brat in order to have real flaws.

So AG Ash wasn't sympathetic when he cried over Lucario's death, when he pushed May into that capsule and said not to worry, when he helped Tori overcome his fear of Pokemon, when he looked outside Treecko's room in the Pokemon Center and stayed up all night at times to help his Pokemon: that's not sympathy. Whining about losing to Paul, high fiving Dawn-- THAT's true sympathy. Not buying this for a second, sorry. One of AG Ash's greatest strengths was his sympathy for himself and others: similarly, this is one of DP Ash's greatest weaknesses as he lacked this.
There’s no question that AG wanted to portray Ash as a sympathetic character who just happened to have his faults, which was fine in and of itself. The issue I have is that the writing gives Ash moments where his development is stunted by the fact that he has to retread ground he already covered earlier that same series and that his worst moments (Brawly, the first Brandon episode) cut a lot of that by taking his flawed side way too far, to a point where he sometimes even came off as a brat who was so thoughtless that he could actually endanger others for the sake of his own ego if put in the right situation for it. No amount of dramatic moments were going to change that. It's good to give a character flaws, but those flaws should never bring that character to a point where I'm rooting against him because of the way he's acting.

I found more sympathy with DP Ash because here was a character who was more consistent in what he learned, genuinely worked hard for what he was able to accomplish, didn’t have moments like AG178, didn't hurt his Pokemon because his pride wouldn't let him admit he was beaten, and demonstrated more in the way of competence than his predecessor all while having a compelling antagonist who challenges his beliefs as a trainer. DP Ash didn’t put his goal above that of his friend’s and supported her to the point where he personally invested in her journey. Yes, I find that to be a more sympathetic character.

I am not saying he was perfect, but eventually as the saga progressed he did catch on and learn from thoe mistakes.
So why was he continuing to make them right up until the latter-half of the series? Anyone that actually grew in Hoenn would not have acted the way Ash did in AG178.

DP Ash is indeed selfish when he couldn't interact with his best friend, Brock, after traveling with him for so long: what happened to that "man's gotta do" speech Brock made and then Ash said, "Yeah, that's what I like to hear!" crap they were spouting at the beginning?
All I’m going to say is that if that’s what you’re seriously using to identify Ash’s selfishness in DP, then you need to refresh yourself on what the word “selfish” actually means. Brock wasn’t utilized well, but the two of them were always on friendly terms. If Ash skipping out on May’s Contests to train and having to be convinced to make allowances for her journey as well as his somehow wasn’t selfish of AG Ash, than there’s little to suggest the same of DP’s Ash.

He simply trained instead of watching May's contests sometimes, but when he did watch May's contests (and he did do this as well, just not as much) he was sympathetic towards her.
When he watched May’s Contests. On the two or three times Brock participated in anything in DP, Ash was always there to watch him. Ash was always there to support Dawn and her Contests. The only time when Ash actually prioritized his goals over someone else’s - an actual example of selfishness, by the way - it occurred in AG.

Not a single one of those episodes had Ash putting himself in real danger for others other than his Pikachu. That's not true character at all-- that's what a friend is expected to do for another.
You clearly didn’t watch all of those episodes: DP003 and DP020 were the only ones that centered around Ash and Pikachu. DP081 and DP163 involve scenes with Ash risking himself for Chimchar/Monferno’s sake. DP070-71 involved Ash risking himself for Riolu’s sake. DP090 involves Ash risking himself for Angie’s sake, despite her telling him to leave her behind (it’s why she gains a crush on him).

Again, already addressed this point.
Not very well.

teamaquagrunt said:
Thing is, I found it to be a reset because I don't think Ash can change all that much. In AG he was very aggressive, I really feel like he would get physical with Paul, not try to solve this in a sort-of-friendly pokemon battle. That's why I felt he was toned down, and too much. Ash was a very physical kid in AG- like what I thought would have been more realistic, is that maybe he tries to punch him, Brock holds him back, and he never tries to see this kid again or instigate him or anything. Isn't that sort of what happened to Drew? My memory is awful, so.
Actually, that’s not what happened. Ash approached Drew in a friendly manner, Drew insulted Ash for no reason, Ash got mad and started yelling, and Drew challenged him to a battle. It’s really not different from what happened with Paul. Ignoring for a moment that there were two occasions where Dawn or Brock had to get in the way of Ash and Paul before things could escalate between them, getting physical wouldn’t have solved anything (their rivalry concerned Pokemon) and would really only make Ash look worse as a character for having to stoop to Paul’s level.

Yes, I heard Ash's reasoning, and I respect your opinion here. But I also think if Ash really wanted to he could have destroyed Paul by using some of his really tough pokemon. So I do feel like Ash played him. He didn't even turn around his hat, which he did in the battle after. That's why I totally think he wasn't completely serious.
I think we’re getting off-track here, but the pre-battle scenes in DP186 focusing on Ash - and for the record, I have no idea how all this came off in the dub; I don’t watch DP186-188 in anything but the subbed version - completely contradict this statement here.

But Ash goes out of his way to earn Paul's respect which I felt was unnecessary. I don't think I'm explaining this well. I felt AG Ash would not bother.
AG Ash was never confronted with a character like Paul, so there's no way to really tell, but considering Ash had spent much of his time with Gary attempting to prove himself as well I’m really inclined to disagree.
 
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Bakphoon™

Heated Fury
I agree. Granted, all that focus ended up being kind of irrelevant in my opinion since he failed to win the Sinnoh League, but he put in a lot of hard work, so kudos to him.

Imo, the challenger, Tobias was too tough. He had a LEGENDARY, Darkrai! There is no chance Ash can defeat it.
 

Gurk

Well-Known Member
The only thing Ash lacks is comedic relief. At the moment, everything around him provides the comedy, but not him. This was different in Kanto, where he was the butt of every joke, due to being such a loser and a naive, arrogant, silly brat. But he isn't allowed to be a loser anymore, or act like a child (even though he is...), which makes his character quite stale.
 

MidnightMelody

Hopeful for Gen 8
I always thought he was aging and was becoming older. Until BW his age was never stated after all. Like compare him in AG to his OS self and his AG self to his DP self. Really if nobody stated in BW ep 1 he was 10 I think everyone would of assumed he did age since we had no evidence that he did not.
 
The only thing Ash lacks is comedic relief. At the moment, everything around him provides the comedy, but not him. This was different in Kanto, where he was the butt of every joke, due to being such a loser and a naive, arrogant, silly brat. But he isn't allowed to be a loser anymore, or act like a child (even though he is...), which makes his character quite stale.

He lacked a LOT more than comedic relief in DP: look at the way this guy used to cry for people's deaths and would carry Mewtwo on his back when no one else would to get it to the spring. THAT is true character, right there. You know what he REALLY lacked in DP? A heart.

Tell me DP Ash made you get anywhere close to as emotional as...(LINKS REMOVED)

I always thought he was aging and was becoming older. Until BW his age was never stated after all. Like compare him in AG to his OS self and his AG self to his DP self. Really if nobody stated in BW ep 1 he was 10 I think everyone would of assumed he did age since we had no evidence that he did not.

Sadly, he's never been aging and getting older: believe me, I thought the same change because of the voice change at first, but then I checked Bulbapedia and it said Ash was still 10 during the DP era. My reaction was literally, "The f*ck is wrong with his voice now, then? I thought he was getting older so that's why they changed it. This stinks."

Oh, and there's even more evidence of him not aging: the second interview with Masamitsu Hidaka WPM conducted during the DP Era!

I can hold much of that against him, because he only went on to take future opponents lightly again (at least he doesn't get another Pokemon hurt, I guess). So what happened to that development?


Except Ash wasn’t perfect or flawless at all in DP. There are many occasions where Ash would do something comically stupid (e.g. he and Angie bringing down their team’s score in DP088 because of their fighting, sleeping in class, etc.) and his more serious issues were frequently pointed out by Paul, who was never going to be defeated unless Ash and his Pokemon made the effort to improve and overcome them. The main difference was that DP Ash wasn’t learning the same lessons over and over, got the opportunity to prove he could be taken seriously, and demonstrated frequently that he did have his competent side. Your character doesn't always need to act like a brat in order to have real flaws.


There’s no question that AG wanted to portray Ash as a sympathetic character who just happened to have his faults, which was fine in and of itself. The issue I have is that the writing gives Ash moments where his development is stunted by the fact that he has to retread ground he already covered earlier that same series and that his worst moments (Brawly, the first Brandon episode) cut a lot of that by taking his flawed side way too far, to a point where he sometimes even came off as a brat who was so thoughtless that he could actually endanger others for the sake of his own ego if put in the right situation for it. No amount of dramatic moments were going to change that. It's good to give a character flaws, but those flaws should never bring that character to a point where I'm rooting against him because of the way he's acting.

I found more sympathy with DP Ash because here was a character who was more consistent in what he learned, genuinely worked hard for what he was able to accomplish, didn’t have moments like AG178, didn't hurt his Pokemon because his pride wouldn't let him admit he was beaten, and demonstrated more in the way of competence than his predecessor all while having a compelling antagonist who challenges his beliefs as a trainer. DP Ash didn’t put his goal above that of his friend’s and supported her to the point where he personally invested in her journey. Yes, I find that to be a more sympathetic character.


So why was he continuing to make them right up until the latter-half of the series? Anyone that actually grew in Hoenn would not have acted the way Ash did in AG178.


All I’m going to say is that if that’s what you’re seriously using to identify Ash’s selfishness in DP, then you need to refresh yourself on what the word “selfish” actually means. Brock wasn’t utilized well, but the two of them were always on friendly terms. If Ash skipping out on May’s Contests to train and having to be convinced to make allowances for her journey as well as his somehow wasn’t selfish of AG Ash, than there’s little to suggest the same of DP’s Ash.


When he watched May’s Contests. On the two or three times Brock participated in anything in DP, Ash was always there to watch him. Ash was always there to support Dawn and her Contests. The only time when Ash actually prioritized his goals over someone else’s - an actual example of selfishness, by the way - it occurred in AG.


You clearly didn’t watch all of those episodes: DP003 and DP020 were the only ones that centered around Ash and Pikachu. DP081 and DP163 involve scenes with Ash risking himself for Chimchar/Monferno’s sake. DP070-71 involved Ash risking himself for Riolu’s sake. DP090 involves Ash risking himself for Angie’s sake, despite her telling him to leave her behind (it’s why she gains a crush on him).


Not very well..
Again, he still stayed up all night with a blanket outside worried about his Treecko, and then puts his hand and face against the wall looking horrified at what he did-- I can more than let this go after seeing that. Development? What happened to when Ash's Pikachu beat that Regice in Battle Frontier, and then lost to (if you want to be specific, Brock called it a tie, but I call that a lie and so did Ash) Paul's Elekid at the beginning of DP? Why did his Pikachu tie with (or nearly lose to) a Magikarp in that whole B Button League crapola during DP? Reset, anyone?

Your character is a CHILD: he's a 10. YEAR. OLD. BOY. He should ACT like one-- he is a KID...almost everyone was impulsive and bratty at that age-- this is another thing I don't like about DP Ash.

Respectable, I understand, but personally I preferred AG Ash's because I could sympathize with him and all the mistakes he made: DP Ash was almost too flat outside of battles and at Dawn's contests, making it very hard for me to like him.

Similarly, anyone that actually grew in Sinnoh would not have acted the way Ash did in DP004.

No, YOU need to refresh yourself on what the word "selfish" means. Brock and Ash were practically ONLY talking about battles at times-- that's NOT a friend, that's using someone for one's own means. Nope, this has happened in DP and XY (see: XY021), too-- not an AG exclusive thing, sorry. Actually, better handled in AG because Ash divided his time between training and watching May's contests when he could!

Yes, which is why I said "other Pokemon" as well, didn't I? The only exception here was DP090, and that didn't do a very good job at making me feel like he was protecting Angie, then, because I didn't see it.

Not very well can go both ways here, can't it?
 
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Benny™

Best Wishes Do Come True Under The Sun & Moon
BW didn't retcon his age, he's always been 10, and always will be.
 
BW didn't retcon his age, he's always been 10, and always will be.

This is the only real fact here.

If you don't believe me, read this:

"Now an overall question about the show. Will Ash ever become a Pokemon Master? He laughed and fell back on the couch. He blatantly said that when Ash becomes a Pokemon Master, the show will end. It will be the last episode. Going back to my first interview, I did not mention that he stated the show was cyclical because it could be the audience is constantly replaced (since children get older and leave, and new children come in), so they are allowed to get away with having the same repetitive goal. So, the show would probably continue the same way collect badges, travel through different regions, never age. Will Ash and Pikachu ever be replaced? No. Will they ever age? No. Will there be a 5th generation of Pokemon and will the show keep continuing? He laughed even harder and said of course. Pokemon will continue for many generations to come, and as he made it sound, probably forever."

Source: http://pokebeach.com/2008/07/second-pokemon-interview-with-masamitsu-hidaka-many-interesting-points (This was taken back during the DP Era, I might add)
 
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charizardfan

Well-Known Member
Dwail8023 said:
Again, he still stayed up all night with a blanket outside worried about his Treecko, and then puts his hand and face against the wall looking horrified at what he did-- I can more than let this go after seeing that.
I can let that go, because as far as I can remember it’s the only time that happens in AG. Unfortunately the circumstances that led to that, mainly fueled by Ash’s arrogance, only came back time and again in the future. That’s an issue, because if you actually want to develop a character and show them learning from where they went wrong in the past you don’t have them coming back to make the same mistakes over and over. AG was all too happy to go back to that well, and it hurts one’s ability to actually perceive growth in him.

Development? What happened to when Ash's Pikachu beat that Regice in Battle Frontier, and then lost to (if you want to be specific, Brock called it a tie, but I call that a lie and so did Ash) Paul's Elekid at the beginning of DP? Why did his Pikachu tie with (or nearly lose to) a Magikarp in that whole B Button League crapola during DP? Reset, anyone?
We’ve been over this before. Until you can effectively negate the fact that unevolved Pokemon have been shown to be capable of amazing displays of power under the right trainer - which was what the Magikarp episode was all about - and you can prove when exactly Paul got Elekid, you have no way of proving a reset. And frankly, it's a discussion that'll likely bring us off-topic.

Your character is a CHILD: he's a 10. YEAR. OLD. BOY. He should ACT like one-- he is a KID...almost everyone was impulsive and bratty at that age-- this is another thing I don't like about DP Ash.
That excuse doesn’t work when this series has showcased all kinds of characters the same age as Ash who either did, or would have known, better than to have acted like he did with Brawly or in AG178.

Respectable, I understand, but personally I preferred AG Ash's because I could sympathize with him and all the mistakes he made: DP Ash was almost too flat outside of battles and at Dawn's contests, making it very hard for me to like him.
I can’t sympathize with AG’s Ash for the same reason. If ever he needed to learn a lesson and work past a flaw in order to get stronger, it was usually the same one - dealing with his overconfidence. That truly made him repetitive, and whenever we get to episodes like Brawly or AG178 it made him downright unlikeable. Obviously he wasn’t supposed to be a bad guy but AG didn’t write him in a way where his more redeeming, more competent side could truly balance this. I don’t necessarily hate AG’s Ash, but that’s one of two series (the other being BW) where I could truly get why people call him static and flat, because there was very little in the way of genuine growth. Even when he beats Brandon, on his third try, he only does so by calling back stronger Pokemon (compare when he beats Paul with the same team that lost 2-6 at Lake Acuity) and still continues to make idiotic mistakes like attacking Dusclops with Seismic Toss, that he already should have learned back when he did the same thing against that very same Pokemon earlier in the saga.

Diamond & Pearl in general moved more of its focus towards the battling aspects of Pokemon, devoted more time to show Ash and Dawn training and improving their battle-styles, thus probably cutting back on some of the other filler that would have gone to fleshing out other parts of the world in earlier series. But the fact is that, regardless of whether or not you see Ash as ‘flat’ there (I don’t, but whatever) he actually did take lessons to heart and learn from past mistakes and things he'd observed on his journey (e.g. watch his battle with Palmer, where Ash decides to go with something other than his usual strategy because of what he's learned so far). I don’t care if you sympathize with him or not, but that’s not something that can actually be denied when characters are explicitly pointing it out.

Similarly, anyone that actually grew in Sinnoh would not have acted the way Ash did in DP004.
Ash didn’t actually put anyone in danger from arguing with Dawn in DP004. There’s a big difference between the two.

No, YOU need to refresh yourself on what the word "selfish" means. Brock and Ash were practically ONLY talking about battles at times-- that's NOT a friend, that's using someone for one's own means.
Ash never demanded any knowledge from Brock, more often Brock gave it of his own accord. Ash always supported Brock on the few occasions the character actually got up and did something. Again, the lacking Ash and Brock dynamic had much more to do with the fact that Brock wasn’t used well in DP (note: Dawn didn’t talk about much with Brock, either, and she’s not selfish for it) and really had no business being there, not because of some imaginary “selfishness” that you’ve perceived despite nothing in the show giving you reason to. Refusing to support May in her Contests so that he can train, despite the fact that May sat through all his Gym battles, is selfish. It actually falls solidly under the definition.

Nope, this has happened in DP and XY (see: XY021), too-- not an AG exclusive thing, sorry.
When in DP did Ash refuse to watch one of Dawn’s Contests so that he could train his Pokemon?

Yes, which is why I said "other Pokemon" as well, didn't I?
This is what you said:

Dwail8023 said:
Not a single one of those episodes had Ash putting himself in real danger for others other than his Pikachu.

Ash was nearly killed protecting Riolu, took real damage trying to get Chimchar to calm down (to the point where even Paul was surprised), and nearly got dragged to Hell/the Spirit World/whatever that was supposed to be for a girl he only met two episodes beforehand. Thus, you’re wrong. Ash did put himself in danger and risked his life for others, other than Pikachu, in DP.

Not very well can go both ways here, can't it?
No.
 
I can let that go, because as far as I can remember it’s the only time that happens in AG. Unfortunately the circumstances that led to that, mainly fueled by Ash’s arrogance, only came back time and again in the future. That’s an issue, because if you actually want to develop a character and show them learning from where they went wrong in the past you don’t have them coming back to make the same mistakes over and over. AG was all too happy to go back to that well, and it hurts one’s ability to actually perceive growth in him.

We’ve been over this before. Until you can effectively negate the fact that unevolved Pokemon have been shown to be capable of amazing displays of power under the right trainer - which was what the Magikarp episode was all about - and you can prove when exactly Paul got Elekid, you have no way of proving a reset. And frankly, it's a discussion that'll likely bring us off-topic.

That excuse doesn’t work when this series has showcased all kinds of characters the same age as Ash who either did, or would have known, better than to have acted like he did with Brawly or in AG178.

I can’t sympathize with AG’s Ash for the same reason. If ever he needed to learn a lesson and work past a flaw in order to get stronger, it was usually the same one - dealing with his overconfidence. That truly made him repetitive, and whenever we get to episodes like Brawly or AG178 it made him downright unlikeable. Obviously he wasn’t supposed to be a bad guy but AG didn’t write him in a way where his more redeeming, more competent side could truly balance this. I don’t necessarily hate AG’s Ash, but that’s one of two series (the other being BW) where I could truly get why people call him static and flat, because there was very little in the way of genuine growth. Even when he beats Brandon, on his third try, he only does so by calling back stronger Pokemon (compare when he beats Paul with the same team that lost 2-6 at Lake Acuity) and still continues to make idiotic mistakes like attacking Dusclops with Seismic Toss, that he already should have learned back when he did the same thing against that very same Pokemon earlier in the saga.

Diamond & Pearl in general moved more of its focus towards the battling aspects of Pokemon, devoted more time to show Ash and Dawn training and improving their battle-styles, thus probably cutting back on some of the other filler that would have gone to fleshing out other parts of the world in earlier series. But the fact is that, regardless of whether or not you see Ash as ‘flat’ there (I don’t, but whatever) he actually did take lessons to heart and learn from past mistakes and things he'd observed on his journey (e.g. watch his battle with Palmer, where Ash decides to go with something other than his usual strategy because of what he's learned so far). I don’t care if you sympathize with him or not, but that’s not something that can actually be denied when characters are explicitly pointing it out.

Ash didn’t actually put anyone in danger from arguing with Dawn in DP004. There’s a big difference between the two.

Ash never demanded any knowledge from Brock, more often Brock gave it of his own accord. Ash always supported Brock on the few occasions the character actually got up and did something. Again, the lacking Ash and Brock dynamic had much more to do with the fact that Brock wasn’t used well in DP (note: Dawn didn’t talk about much with Brock, either, and she’s not selfish for it) and really had no business being there, not because of some imaginary “selfishness” that you’ve perceived despite nothing in the show giving you reason to. Refusing to support May in her Contests so that he can train, despite the fact that May sat through all his Gym battles, is selfish. It actually falls solidly under the definition.

When in DP did Ash refuse to watch one of Dawn’s Contests so that he could train his Pokemon?

This is what you said:


Ash was nearly killed protecting Riolu, took real damage trying to get Chimchar to calm down (to the point where even Paul was surprised), and nearly got dragged to Hell/the Spirit World/whatever that was supposed to be for a girl he only met two episodes beforehand. Thus, you’re wrong. Ash did put himself in danger and risked his life for others, other than Pikachu, in DP.

No.

Well, congrats, because you're wrong there and that's not the only time Ash does it in AG: go ahead and watch "A Tail with a Twist" to refresh your memory there if you don't believe me where Ash shows remorse for Treecko yet again. Similarly, it hurts my ability to perceive growth in DP Ash when he starts off the flat, bland character he did and ended up the same way as he started in the beginning.

NO trainer can make a Magikarp THAT strong in the games-- that's my point. Oh, I have proof: ANY Pikachu that can take down a LEGENDARY Pokemon like Regice should MORE than easily take down a BASIC Pokemon like an Elekid-- Paul is WEAKER than Brandon as we saw in "A Pyramiding Rage!" and Ash DEFEATED the same guy at the end of Battle Frontier: plain as day, he's been reset. Sorry: I've made my point, and that's that.

DP Ash was also overconfident, too: I didn't like it. Static in AG? lol, no, I don't see that. True on Brandon, but he WON that battle and that's what really counts. Did Ash win the Sinnoh League? Nooooooooooo! If anything, he stayed static in DP more than in AG.

That's precisely why I disliked the DP Saga in general: the battling aspects of Pokemon were focused on too much, as were Ash and Dawn's growth as trainers, at the cost of others-- as a result, this took away from Brock and Team Rocket's development, making them flanderized and hitting low points they had never hit in the OS or AG. Additionally, Ash lost the genuine emotion and much of his rash stubbornness that previously defined his character, and that was something I didn't like. I can admit he took BATTLING lessons to heart like that, but NOT how to improve his character-- just his training skills.

Agreed on Brock being the main problem there: no, it's not selfish as Ash was not confident in his own abilities as a trainer at times needing to improve to win his battles, and besides that he did attend some of May's contests as well-- he balanced it out, and that's why I don't mind.

Never: I never denied that, did I?

Again, all for Pokemon, and no-- I did not say what you quoted: you took the post before I edited it last night, if you must know, before your last post as well-- nice try, but it doesn't work.

Yes.
 
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Darkrai 888

Active Member
They lost Interest in Giving him some Funny Moments so they just wanted make him as I Like to Call it "Battehungryitis/ or in another Word Battle Hungry Power" he just wanted to Battle and didn't have the Caring Aspect, he had in DP, but it felt SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SAPPY AND DRY for Me :(
 

Navin

MALDREAD
I always thought he was aging and was becoming older. Until BW his age was never stated after all. Like compare him in AG to his OS self and his AG self to his DP self. Really if nobody stated in BW ep 1 he was 10 I think everyone would of assumed he did age since we had no evidence that he did not.

This is basically how I felt. And it made sense narratively with him also becoming a better trainer from OS-end of DP. Quite honestly, I felt the DP's audience pool was more geared to 12-14 year old preteens/early teenagers with all that action/violence, plot-driven arcs, and overall tonality. Along with that age announcement and Ash reset in BW, it also seems the show became a lot more kiddish.


NO trainer can make a Magikarp THAT strong in the games-- that's my point. Oh, I have proof: ANY Pikachu that can take down a LEGENDARY Pokemon like Regice should MORE than easily take down a BASIC Pokemon like an Elekid-- Paul is WEAKER than Brandon as we saw in "A Pyramiding Rage!" and Ash DEFEATED the same guy at the end of Battle Frontier: plain as day, he's been reset. Sorry: I've made my point, and that's that. DP Ash was also overconfident, too: I didn't like it. Static in AG? lol, no, I don't see that. True on Brandon, but he WON that battle and that's what really counts. Did Ash win the Sinnoh League? Nooooooooooo! If anything, he stayed static in DP more than in AG.

Why are you comparing Battle Frontier to a League Conference? They aren't the same whatsoever. And I'm not even going to go into the Pikachu argument because we've discussed this multiple times already.

That's precisely why I disliked the DP Saga in general: the battling aspects of Pokemon were focused on too much, as were Ash and Dawn's growth as trainers, at the cost of others-- as a result, this took away from Brock and Team Rocket's development, making them flanderized and hitting low points they had never hit in the OS or AG. Additionally, Ash lost the genuine emotion and much of his rash stubbornness that previously defined his character, and that was something I didn't like. I can admit he took BATTLING lessons to heart like that, but NOT how to improve his character-- just his training skills.

The issue with Ash comes from keeping a protagonist for 800+ episodes. They want to keep Ash as a young hero to connect with the target audience, and such are limited in the degree in which he can develop and grow in that many episodes without making him seem static or repetitive or stale. If Pokemon was like Dragonball(Z) or they wrote Pokemon as this epic of a 10-year-old boy who over the years becomes a Pokemon master as well made their target audience not restricted to 8-12 year olds but an older crowd, the show wouldn't have that type of issue with Ash.

Even then, DP at least showed Ash as a much more mature and serious individual (compared to where he was in OS), and one who especially focused on battling. And y'know, that is improvement and development. You can say character is different, but it really is not. Ash's life revolves around battling and training, and the way he goes about is a direct reflection of his growth. They say the same things about real-life athletes all the time - about how X person joined the game as an arrogant loudmouth but over the years that behavior mellows down and the person becomes a better, more responsible player, and they say how X person has matured and gained humility and grown. Same deal with DP Ash. Like I said before, the issue lies in the fact that he should have completed his story hundreds of episodes earlier, and the fact that he's restricted in his growth. But where he can grow heavily is as a trainer getting closer to his goal, and DP did that beautifully.
 
This is basically how I felt. And it made sense narratively with him also becoming a better trainer from OS-end of DP. Quite honestly, I felt the DP's audience pool was more geared to 12-14 year old preteens/early teenagers with all that action/violence, plot-driven arcs, and overall tonality. Along with that age announcement and Ash reset in BW, it also seems the show became a lot more kiddish.

Why are you comparing Battle Frontier to a League Conference? They aren't the same whatsoever. And I'm not even going to go into the Pikachu argument because we've discussed this multiple times already.


The issue with Ash comes from keeping a protagonist for 800+ episodes. They want to keep Ash as a young hero to connect with the target audience, and such are limited in the degree in which he can develop and grow in that many episodes without making him seem static or repetitive or stale. If Pokemon was like Dragonball(Z) or they wrote Pokemon as this epic of a 10-year-old boy who over the years becomes a Pokemon master as well made their target audience not restricted to 8-12 year olds but an older crowd, the show wouldn't have that type of issue with Ash.

Even then, DP at least showed Ash as a much more mature and serious individual (compared to where he was in OS), and one who especially focused on battling. And y'know, that is improvement and development. You can say character is different, but it really is not. Ash's life revolves around battling and training, and the way he goes about is a direct reflection of his growth. They say the same things about real-life athletes all the time - about how X person joined the game as an arrogant loudmouth but over the years that behavior mellows down and the person becomes a better, more responsible player, and they say how X person has matured and gained humility and grown. Same deal with DP Ash. Like I said before, the issue lies in the fact that he should have completed his story hundreds of episodes earlier, and the fact that he's restricted in his growth. But where he can grow heavily is as a trainer getting closer to his goal, and DP did that beautifully.

You're wrong on his age-- proof?

"Now an overall question about the show. Will Ash ever become a Pokemon Master? He laughed and fell back on the couch. He blatantly said that when Ash becomes a Pokemon Master, the show will end. It will be the last episode. Going back to my first interview, I did not mention that he stated the show was cyclical because it could be the audience is constantly replaced (since children get older and leave, and new children come in), so they are allowed to get away with having the same repetitive goal. So, the show would probably continue the same way collect badges, travel through different regions, never age. Will Ash and Pikachu ever be replaced? No. Will they ever age? No. Will there be a 5th generation of Pokemon and will the show keep continuing? He laughed even harder and said of course. Pokemon will continue for many generations to come, and as he made it sound, probably forever."

Source: http://pokebeach.com/2008/07/second-pokemon-interview-with-masamitsu-hidaka-many-interesting-points (This was taken back during the DP Era, I might add)

I never said they were-- note the rest of that entire statement that you failed to account for. Good, because you clearly don't have a response to it.

I agree on the issue being that overall.

Being mature =/= losing your personality and most of your viable emotion: like it or not, he was still 10 in DP. It's a fact! I agree that battling and training are important, but NOT to the extent where they should overshadow the characters' enthusiasm, energy, and mannerisms-- that is the problem here.
 

Gurk

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't have a big problem with Ash being the way he is if they stated that he is growing in age. I mean, I don't care how much he has experienced, no 10-year-old acts like that, or is so determined to reach their goals at that age. I know it's a fantasy, and it's not supposed to be realistic, but come on! His lack of 10-year-old child's common characteristics is more or less disturbing to me, it's not fun to watch..
 
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