Why do people think Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh?

[pokemon fan 132]

And yet if it were any other 3 different human characters when the show first started....it would make no difference.

Going by that logic it would have made no difference if Ash instead of Kanto starters had Pidgey or Rattata. If in Hoenn or DP instead of May or Dawn, Iris or Misty were used.

If Ash first pokemon was not Pikachu but Clefairy etc.

Yes pokemon would still be popular if instead of Ash, Misty and Brock someone else was used. But question is would it achieve same level of popularity like it was case with original trio?

In popularity of some product, show and help to build its prestigue there are various factors and variables to consider when making such assesment. Having different characters, different storyline, different atmosphere doesn't guarantee pokemon would become in same way appealing toward viewers like it was case with Kanto characters.

Because someone else wouldn't have produced same type of chemistry Ash, Misty and Brock managed to create among themselves.
They would have different traits which would define them, different backstories not being known if they would be relatable and personalities would mix anf mesh with each other in significantly different way than we got to see between Brock , Ash and Misty.
Promoting friendship and adventure aspect of exploring new places, pokemon and pursuing their own dreams in spontaneus, innate and natural way.

Who knows, if we had completelx different characters in OS pokemon anime could be even more popular, popularity could be exact same. But it could also lead to show not being internationally accepted, liked and leaving such strong impact on people minds like original trio did in making vital part in spreading pokemon name wprldwide making it such a hit and molding pathway on which future genberations, characters and story was built.

We can never know for sure how would things play oit if things went different than they originalkly were. We can guess, but never know.

Same applies to Ash. Some are tired of him wanting this character gone feeling he "lost his characterization" in DP not recovering.

While some are able to identify themselves with this character, care to see where will wheel of destiny take him and enjoy in excitement of journey, meeting new places and people growing forward. Im one of those people who don't mind that he matured over the years, because to me maturity is character development. Certainly not character derailment.

With Ash more competent, mature characterization mixed with some of his goofy, hotheaded and spirited attitude giving me hopes of all that room for further growth being utilized with long journey bringing him to more concrete standpoints eventually. Something i felt had requirements to happen in Sinnoh.

 

[Platinum fan.]

Well it's not like Pokemon XY is that popular either. Whenever people talk about ratings here, they keep mentioning how it's been declining or just flat-lined.



I honestly think Pikachu has more star power just due to marketing potential and the fact that it's a brand mascot. Reducing Ash to recurring character status and introducing a new hero/heroine with a Pikachu might be the way to go.



Do you think so? What matters most is money. Piplup and Oshawott generated a lot of revenue I bet, and explains why they didn't evolve. And shipping isn't that important either, otherwise Pokeshipping would have been canon years back.

I do agree with a lot of this. The Pokemon anime isn't in the same spot as Yu-gi-oh or Digimon because of the games. The games are still popular enough to keep the Pokemon train going. The anime isn't nearly as big as it use to be and if the games ever ended Pokemon would end along with it, but if the anime ended the games probably wouldn't feel a thing because they can just make more BW2 trailers that promote the games. And the Pokemon are the true stars of the anime. Without them, these main human characters would be nothing. It's why it's not uncommon that Pokemon have stronger personalities then their trainers sometimes. Several of Ash's Pokemon have more interesting personalities then him, especially DP Ash.

 

[chalkus]

I do agree with a lot of this. The Pokemon anime isn't in the same spot as Yu-gi-oh or Digimon because of the games. The games are still popular enough to keep the Pokemon train going. The anime isn't nearly as big as it use to be and if the games ever ended Pokemon would end along with it, but if the anime ended the games probably wouldn't feel a thing because they can just make more BW2 trailers that promote the games. And the Pokemon are the true stars of the anime. Without them, these main human characters would be nothing. It's why it's not uncommon that Pokemon have stronger personalities then their trainers sometimes. Several of Ash's Pokemon have more interesting personalities then him, especially DP Ash.

Yugioh was based off of a card game that is still very popular yet the latest incarnation of the anime is not. Most people do not care about anything past the original Yugioh anime and next to no one cares about anything past GX. It's no coincidence that the original Yugioh anime airs before Yugioh Zexal and that no version of Yugioh past the original has ever been re-aired. Pokemon XY is right now more popular than Zexal or Digimon Fusion is and Ash I believe is a big reason why.

@CyberCubed: So you're saying that if the anime had bland, boring characters it would still be popular? The humans are more important than the pokemon because the pokemon can only express themselves so much. They need the people more than the people need them. A show about three kids going on a journey is more interesting than one about a bunch of random animals fighting each other.

 

[CyberCubed]

@CyberCubed: So you're saying that if the anime had bland, boring characters it would still be popular? The humans are more important than the pokemon because the pokemon can only express themselves so much. They need the people more than the people need them. A show about three kids going on a journey is more interesting than one about a bunch of random animals fighting each other.

I agree, but at this point Ash's character can be completely interchangeable with the main male of the games that it would make no difference.

Ash was good up until the end of DP. The DP series felt like it was intended to be the finale of the series. They set up the Elite 4, Cynthia, the Champion League....and then absolutely squandered it.

I honestly think Best Wishes wouldn't have been as poorly received if it was a completely new series with a new male hero traveling with Iris/Cilan...and then the same for XY.

 

[Platinum fan.]

Yugioh was based off of a card game that is still very popular yet the latest incarnation of the anime is not. Most people do not care about anything past the original Yugioh anime and next to no one cares about anything past GX. It's no coincidence that the original Yugioh anime airs before Yugioh Zexal and that no version of Yugioh past the original has ever been re-aired. Pokemon XY is right now more popular than Zexal or Digimon Fusion is and Ash I believe is a big reason why.

@CyberCubed: So you're saying that if the anime had bland, boring characters it would still be popular? The humans are more important than the pokemon because the pokemon can only express themselves so much. They need the people more than the people need them. A show about three kids going on a journey is more interesting than one about a bunch of random animals fighting each other.

I don't believe for a second that Ash is a big reason Pokemon is still popular or alive today. For one thing, Pokemon isn't nearly as big as it use to be. And right now on Cartoon Network, Pokemon is just a big fish in a small pond with nostalgia and it's name "Pokemon" on it's side, swimming with two other big fishes. Pokemon's franchise survives because of the toys they sell and the video games. Ash does the exact same junk every season with the exact same bland personality. There are days I honestly can't believe the anime has lasted this long with such a repetitive storyline with no real advancements, then I remember who Pokemon is marketed towards and it makes sense. Pokemon IMO can live on without Ash. The only problem is it would look strange to do it now because they kept it going for this long when the time to have really done it is long past.

 

[Nodame]

I don't believe for a second that Ash is a big reason Pokemon is still popular or alive today. For one thing, Pokemon isn't nearly as big as it use to be. And right now on Cartoon Network, Pokemon is just a big fish in a small pond with nostalgia and it's name "Pokemon" on it's side, swimming with two other big fishes. Pokemon's franchise survives because of the toys they sell and the video games. Ash does the exact same junk every season with the exact same bland personality. There are days I honestly can't believe the anime has lasted this long with such a repetitive storyline with no real advancements, then I remember who Pokemon is marketed towards and it makes sense. Pokemon IMO can live on without Ash. The only problem is it would look strange to do it now because they kept it going for this long when the time to have really done it is long past.

I agree with everything you've said. Ash Ketchum is a joke tbh. What I can't understand is that he wants to be the master and yet hasn't won a league. Not to mention his boring and robotic personality omg. I used to like him, but not anymore. The writers just ruined Ash for me.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Ash does the exact same junk every season with the exact same bland personality. There are days I honestly can't believe the anime has lasted this long with such a repetitive storyline with no real advancements, then I remember who Pokemon is marketed towards and it makes sense. Pokemon IMO can live on without Ash. The only problem is it would look strange to do it now because they kept it going for this long when the time to have really done it is long past.

I couldn't have said it any better myself: that, and they will never get rid of Ash, because they need to make more $$$$$ and he's the perfect marketing tool to rake in the dough, of course.

Although, I will say one thing-- Ash didn't used to be this bland and generic in the earlier seasons: he used to have a wittier, sarcastic side and was a lot more genuinely selfless in the OS and in AG than what ended up happening to him.

 

[Platinum fan.]

I couldn't have said it any better myself: that, and they will never get rid of Ash, because they need to make more $$$$$ and he's the perfect marketing tool to rake in the dough, of course.

Although, I will say one thing-- Ash didn't used to be this bland and generic in the earlier seasons: he used to have a wittier, sarcastic side and was a lot more genuinely selfless in the OS and in AG than what ended up happening to him.

I agree. Ash was actually a very fun character in OS and AG. I loved following him back then. It's a shame what's happened to him now. I might not agree with the writers keeping him forever, but if you are going to do that then advance the character. Ash should not be in these rookie stages during the start of a region. That's what the new trainers are for. And half the time it just feels like he's taking that aspect that should be for the new trainers for himself. Ash should have like trainer students now, with all he's done.

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

He lost it after Diamond and Pearl imo.

X/Y is giving it back to him bits by bits.

 

[Emperor Empoleon]

In regards to other series comparisons.

With Digimon in particular, its not just the characters that change between generations, but the creatures, the mechanics, and even the atmosphere in some instances. So naturally you have people who favor [X] over [Y], or lose interest all together because they can no longer connect. Pokemon will always be the same at its core, so it doesn't really have that kind of problem with its creatures and battles. A new generation on the TV show could probably still be successful on the virtue of being Pokemon. Maybe even more popular than now, given the response to the BW2 OVA, and desire for new characters.

But at the same time, keeping an older cast at the core isn't really a bad thing. There are still people who wouldn't mind seeing an old, forgotten character come back for more. And it can be done well. One Piece is still the highest seller over at SJ, because the story consistently delivers to its audience even though its a long ride. Naruto is up there too, and its storyline has received more and more layers over time. Even if some fans think that parts of the story are in decline, I know for a fact that there are people reading because they're still invested in a favorite character, or they want to see how [X] or [Y] unfolds. Having that kind of attachment definitely helps to bring in viewership.

That's part of why Ash in Sinnoh was so well received too. Took the same old character, and actually added a touch of depth to his journey. Be it his growth as a person, being pushed into his prime as a trainer, or world building with the Champion League. Even now in Kalos, you have people excited to see him back in top form, wanting old Pokes to come back and Mega Evolve, etc.

Replace the character with each game, and you honestly do run the risk of losing that type of investment. And this ain't Adventures either. Once a character is done on this show, they're pretty much gone.

TL;DR ~ Character replacements could be nice, but I don't believe its the only way that the show could continue to be successful or entertaining at all. And I think Ash in Sinnoh is an example of how they should keep things going (with him) if he isn't replaced. Let him grow, give him more to work with, etc.

Granted...There's still the show's overall consistency issues, and tournament repeats that creates disconnect as well.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To people who say how removing Ash would make no difference with pokemon being "successful as ever", such statement should seriously be reevaluated given there is no proof to back up such presumption.

Lets take a look at other anime which replaced their main leads and how this reflected on reputation of franchise and general following as whole.

Spoiler: other show faith after complete cast changes

Yugioh ratings completely got squandered when Yugi, Kaiba, Joey pretty much whole original set up was removed and got clean swipe. Many fans considered GX to be low point of this series finding anime lost its identity, characters which made this likable for them beng emotionally invested and took away from what was creative, mysterious and filled with relatable, unique characzters storyline.With this anime being shadow of its former self as far as popularity and following goes.

Digimon and Beyblade when main lead Tyson got replaced didnpt fared much better either generally facing decline in ratings.

In Dragon ball when directors attempted to replace Goku after Freeza saga with his son Gohan becoming main protagonist of series, backlash from fans was so unbearable and widespreaded that writers gave up from their plans leaving Goku as main star in subsequent sagas.

There are numerous examples where once popular TV show got reboot cutting all ties with past was when large number of viewers quit with it not finding anything thrilling, worthwhile and interesting in alternate anime adaptation.

I dont think ill ever understand this urge i encounter of Ash and every ther character being replaced giving us copy paste of previous series with new faces.

Humans are what make this show being just as important to story as pokemon are. One cannot exist without another in this kind of anime. With Ash being representative, main protagonist of series being someone to who people can relate themselves to. Symphatize with his flaws, efforts and struggles emotonally growing attached to character wanting to follow his journey and various adventures. Living their own excitement and dreams they have as individuals through character they care about wanting to see where will path take him and if he will eventually succeed.

Take him away after 17 years and your putting yourself at risk to lose very large contingent of fans and lot of mone. With any alternate adaptation ending in possible failure.

Writers have their winning formula and they certainly arent going to replace Ash and risk everything with new character who might not be well received at all.

All i see is people complaints whenever Ash traveling companions are replaced making fans saddened how just about when they start caring for character, get to know him better and catch up on strings of its story he/she ends up replaced cutting his journey, development and prospect of going forward in half. Leaving fans agitated, saddened and frustratred to see their favorites treated like expendable material whose legacy, impact and own storyline and potential becomes irrelevant in longer run ending forgotten and unfinished.

Yet for some reason people don't think departure of character which is much more popular and recognized among young and older viewers wouldn't bring with itself any repercussions and decline in popularity? Remember guys what happened when Misty left with people becoming highly attached to character finding large amount of pokemon appeal came from her strong presence?

Well multiply amount of complaining by 1000 and you would get approximate estimation of how negatively Ash leaving would reflect on franchise.

Also no matter how many time i hear how "Ash lost his personality in Sinnoh becoming boring battle borg" wont change my stance on character and how i feel about it not being able to see how he didn't had character? Its a lose lose situation for his character no matter what happens unfortunately. When he dont change, mature, learn to become better trainer he is criticized for stagnation. Repetition and overuse of same ideas with his character not being taken anywhere.

Yet when writers finally took his character forward deciding to build up on story, have him become less naive and stubborn changing way under which he perceives people and environment. Growing forward as person and trainer in Sinnoh. Starting to innovate and take other people ideas in his training style. Be more strategic, collected and willing to listen to othere people advices.

Visibly making progress as trainer and person he was still critcized.

With character development being viewed as "lose of personality" despite Ash bursting imo in DP with passion, emotion, many funny antics his character was able to generate in interactions with Paul, Dawn, Conway, Barry and many, many others. Having his easy going, clueless, somewhat stubborn and hotheaded behavior. Mixed with lot of care and spirited attitude putting lot of effort in doing best for pokemon like Chimchar, Buizel, Gliscor etc.

Having personality, more mature personality that is. Growing as character and trainer and while he may have been less witty and impulsive that can also depends on which characters and type of personalities surrounding him. With different people attitudes and chemistry they produce resulting in different kind of interactions Ash is going to have with them.

As i brought up already in 4th page of this topic.

 

[Soniman]

I couldn't have said it any better myself: that, and they will never get rid of Ash, because they need to make more $$$$$ and he's the perfect marketing tool to rake in the dough, of course.

Although, I will say one thing-- Ash didn't used to be this bland and generic in the earlier seasons: he used to have a wittier, sarcastic side and was a lot more genuinely selfless in the OS and in AG than what ended up happening to him.

Being ingulfed in flames for Chimchar, jumping off a tower for Pikachu, yeah I suppose Ash post AG is way more selfish

That's part of why Ash in Sinnoh was so well received too. Took the same old character, and actually added a touch of depth to his journey. Be it his growth as a person, being pushed into his prime as a trainer, or world building with the Champion League. Even now in Kalos, you have people excited to see him back in top form, wanting old Pokes to come back and Mega Evolve, etc.

This is why I never got the "stagnant' complaints at all, DP did a lot of things with him that ceartainly weren't done in previous seasons so what the heck??

 

[Aegiscalibur]

I don't believe for a second that Ash is a big reason Pokemon is still popular or alive today. For one thing, Pokemon isn't nearly as big as it use to be. And right now on Cartoon Network, Pokemon is just a big fish in a small pond with nostalgia and it's name "Pokemon" on it's side, swimming with two other big fishes. Pokemon's franchise survives because of the toys they sell and the video games. Ash does the exact same junk every season with the exact same bland personality. There are days I honestly can't believe the anime has lasted this long with such a repetitive storyline with no real advancements, then I remember who Pokemon is marketed towards and it makes sense. Pokemon IMO can live on without Ash. The only problem is it would look strange to do it now because they kept it going for this long when the time to have really done it is long past.

*slow clap*

That is very true. The anime has only survived this long because of the popularity of the overall franchise. If it didn't have the name "Pokemon," it would have died years ago, with or without Ash.

 

[chalkus]

For all those who say Ash should be gone, I have questions to ask, and I want you all to answer honestly.

Would you still be invested in watching the show if Ash left after Johto?
And not just Ash but the entire cast?
I'm sure most would watch AG just to see what it was about but would you all care to finish it?
Would you care to watch DP, BW and XY if it had entirely new casts each season?

I can't speak for everyone but I know that if Ash left the show after Johto I would not care to see anything that happened after AG. It's like how I felt about Digimon. I loved the first season, tolerated the second and barely saw a few episodes of the third. Robotech is another example. I loved the SDF Macross season, tolerated the SDF Southern Cross season and have never seen the third and final Invid season. My interest in those shows waned over time because I lost the connection I had with those shows, namely the characters. Finding out how Ash progresses in his journey is the main reason people still watch this show. Pokemon will fall into the same trap as Digimon and Yugioh if they ever axe Ash. I only saw about half of AG even with Ash and Brock. Had they left I would probably have stopped watching entirely.

 

[CyberCubed]

For all those who say Ash should be gone, I have questions to ask, and I want you all to answer honestly.

Would you still be invested in watching the show if Ash left after Johto?
And not just Ash but the entire cast?
I'm sure most would watch AG just to see what it was about but would you all care to finish it?
Would you care to watch DP, BW and XY if it had entirely new casts each season?

I can't speak for everyone but I know that if Ash left the show after Johto I would not care to see anything that happened after AG. It's like how I felt about Digimon. I loved the first season, tolerated the second and barely saw a few episodes of the third. Robotech is another example. I loved the SDF Macross season, tolerated the SDF Southern Cross season and have never seen the third and final Invid season. My interest in those shows waned over time because I lost the connection I had with those shows, namely the characters. Finding out how Ash progresses in his journey is the main reason people still watch this show. Pokemon will fall into the same trap as Digimon and Yugioh if they ever axe Ash. I only saw about half of AG even with Ash and Brock. Had they left I would probably have stopped watching entirely.

I think that's the point. I would stop watching because the character I watched was concluded. I don't watch shows with no endings, and would have prefered Ash's story be wrapped up then seeing it dragged out forever and obviously not going anywhere.

In fact the main reason I got into AG was *because* it had a cast change. Back when Johto was airing it just seemed like the original trio was just going to stay like it was forever, especially after Tracey was axed quickly. Had the original trio continued into AG I probably would have dropped the show. Bringing in new characters every gen from then onward is the only thing that kept it interesting.

 

[Aegiscalibur]

For all those who say Ash should be gone, I have questions to ask, and I want you all to answer honestly.

Would you still be invested in watching the show if Ash left after Johto?

Considering that I was practically falling asleep during Johto and much of AG, it could hardly have been worse.

I'm sure most would watch AG just to see what it was about but would you all care to finish it?

Convincing me to watch even the early episodes would be a good start though. Ash leaving the show would be enough of a "hell froze over" event to guarantee it.

After that... maybe they could try working on the plot in general. (Yeah, right.)

It's like how I felt about Digimon. I loved the first season, tolerated the second and barely saw a few episodes of the third.

Well, speak for yourself. Already as a kid I thought that Tamers completely crushed the old ones to the point of irrelevance.

 

[chalkus]

Like I said I know people would tune in to see what AG with Ash leaving just to see what it is like but how many of you would honestly keep watching Pokemon if every new season had an entirely new cast.

 

[Soniman]

Like I said I know people would tune in to see what AG with Ash leaving just to see what it is like but how many of you would honestly keep watching Pokemon if every new season had an entirely new cast.

I liked Digimon so I wouldnt mind it, as long as the characters themselves are developed nicely over a set amount of time nad have closure, as well as keep appearing every now and then in succeeding seasons

 

[Blue Saturday]

I agree. Ash was actually a very fun character in OS and AG. I loved following him back then. It's a shame what's happened to him now. I might not agree with the writers keeping him forever, but if you are going to do that then advance the character. Ash should not be in these rookie stages during the start of a region. That's what the new trainers are for. And half the time it just feels like he's taking that aspect that should be for the new trainers for himself. Ash should have like trainer students now, with all he's done.

THIS! Ash is just stale, I used to be such a huge Ash fanboy. Then at some point in DP I realized how boring his personality had become, I liked him at times during BW but not heavily consistently and especially not consistently with how XY makes him out to be so amazing in favor of ignoring its new character a lot of the time. If you're going to keep him for so long, go ahead and have the character win a league. His Pikachu should not be losing to Surskit and Ice Battle Fields, Ash has fought on like five by this point for God's sake.

 

[zhixun]

In my opinion Satoshi in DP just involved slightly heavier in contest than before. Otherwise he is just as usual to challenge for gym badges.