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Iris still got the least amount of development of the female companions though, not counting Serena so far obviously. Not only because her actual episode count was smaller, as she was the shortest lived female companion at only 3 years, but also because the stuff you mention only happened in around 5-6 episodes tops.
Character development has to do with quality, not quantity. Just because she was only here for three years does not mean the character didn't get her significant growth and character development, if you actually watched BW(Oh, wait you don't follow XY or BW) you would know that. And no, that happened in much more than 5-6 episodes. You need to learn the difference between growing as a character and growing as a trainer, Ash's character doesn't change. He simply becomes a better trainer but his character is static. He's the same he was in XY, just with better battling skills for example.
Character development has to do with quality, not quantity. Just because she was only here for three years does not mean the character didn't get her significant growth and character development, if you actually watched BW(Oh, wait you don't follow XY or BW) you would know that. And no, that happened in much more than 5-6 episodes. You need to learn the difference between growing as a character and growing as a trainer, Ash's character doesn't change. He simply becomes a better trainer but his character is static. He's the same he was in XY, just with better battling skills for example.
EXACTLY! There is a difference between becoming a better trainer and having character development because becoming a better trainer has to do with becoming stronger but doesn't always have to do with character development. Character development has to do with character and how you grow as a person. Sure, there are examples where becoming a better trainer leads to character development. But they are not always mutually exclusive.
Ash's character doesn't change. He simply becomes a better trainer but his character is static. He's the same he was in XY, just with better battling skills for example.
EXACTLY! There is a difference between becoming a better trainer and having character development because becoming a better trainer has to do with becoming stronger but doesn't always have to do with character development. Character development has to do with character and how you grow as a person. Sure, there are examples where becoming a better trainer leads to character development. But they are not always mutually exclusive.
Dont feed me this. Growing as a trainer and as a character are practically interchangable, you can't just arbitrarily decide which one matters and which one doesnt.
This is POKEMON a show about GROWING STRONGER AND DEVELOPING CLOSE BONDS WITH YOUR POKEMON, being a trainer is a really BIG part of that you know, and Ash was ALL about that in DP. He arguably has the strongest sense of camaraderie with his Sinnoh team, taking the time to train with each and everyone of them to see what makes them special, lets not even get into Chimchar and how he took great strides to bond with him over the course of the series and showing the character in a new light he's never been seen before in terms of handling a Pokemon with severe emotional trauma and how the both of them had to find a way to overcome that. His abilites and style as Pokemon trianer frequentley came into question whenever he butt heads with Paul (which directly relates to his CHARACTER) and again he worked hard to overcome this. I seriously can't fathom how all of this made Ash a static character that never grew or changed.
Dont feed me this. Growing as a trainer and as a character are practically interchangable, you can't just arbitrarily decide which one matters and which one doesnt.
This is POKEMON a show about GROWING STRONGER AND DEVELOPING CLOSE BONDS WITH YOUR POKEMON, being a trainer is a really BIG part of that you know, and Ash was ALL about that in DP. He arguably has the strongest sense of camaraderie with his Sinnoh team, taking the time to train with each and everyone of them to see what makes them special, lets not even get into Chimchar and how he took great strides to bond with him over the course of the series and showing the character in a new light he's never been seen before in terms of handling a Pokemon with severe emotional trauma and how the both of them had to find a way to overcome that. His abilites and style as Pokemon trianer frequentley came into question whenever he butt heads with Paul (which directly relates to his CHARACTER) and again he worked hard to overcome this. I seriously can't fathom how all of this made Ash a static character that never grew or changed.
It's not Karp we are feeding you. There is a difference between character development and becoming a stronger trainer. I am not saying one is better than the other. I am just saying they are different things, and they are different things. It doesn't matter how strong Ash grows when it comes to his character development. If he stays the same person, he didn't develop. Ash did grow as a trainer from OS-DP and that is just as important as what development he gets. I am not taking that away from him.
EDIT: Alright, fine, they do overlap in some cases, but what does that have to do with the point we're trying to make about Iris. You don't need to be the strongest trainer in the world in order to develop. People seem to look at a character and their placement they get in a particular tournament and praise them for their development when that's not always the case. Look at TRio from OS. Clearly, they are not the strongest trainers but you can't say they didn't get character development and be telling the truth.
In response to statements how removal of popular, established character wont cause any negative impact and drop in popularity for pokemon anime as whole. I have to wander if peolpe realize how much of emotional impact and attachment fictional characters can leave on their audience.
Perhaps best example is infamous attempt that Goku gets replaced by his son Gohan as main protagonist of DBZ series. Sole fact of writers having to abandon that idea because of backlash and negative response from fans reveals how much of influence and positive imagew popular,easily recognizable characters can leave on their audience.
I see constantly being said how reason why GS and all future Yugioh series had lower ratings was "becauser fad died out". Thats only half true. Other half is in writers changing completely highly recognizable and iconic main cast, cutting all ties with past and previous events with all i read on various Yugioh related stiff being "how Yugioh died once they replaced DM characters". How it lost its identity and positive reputation it used to imprint in people minds over the years having no recognizable and likable protagonists anymore with who people emotionally invested, grew to like and care for them a lot. Stable cast who to them defined this series, had them root, symphatyze and interested in following his story, growth and various struggles he had to deal wuth.
Its too much of coincidence that ratings in Yugioh and pverall popularity plummeted more or less around time Yugi, Kaiba, Joey etc was replaced with Jaden, Chazz and likes.
Imagine if Luffy from One Piece, Usagi from Sailor Moon, Ichigo from Bleach, Shinji from Evangelion etc., ended replaced with some completely new character.
All hell would break loose with loyal viewers being repulsed and highly irritated by this move viewing this characters as main mascots, faces of this respective shows. Around who story and journey revolves.
Ash is viewed as un expendable and crucial asset of this show that his departure would only create shock and major disappointment among fandom. New generations would become only confused with alternate series and different protagonist with franchise losing established brand, someone with who younger kids can connect anime with becoming turned of from it.
He is very popular among not just older but target audience too. In their eyes Ash is driving force of pokemon being too iconic and recognizable as mascot worldwide to expect how his leaving wont cause confusion among target audience, alienating them from new character with who they couldn't concatenate this show.
Argument how target audience isn't attached to Ash contains only half of true in it, when taken in account how significant portion of today kids are fans which started watching pokemon in DP growing to like character.
Just for comparison my nephew is only 9 years old and he could never picture pokemon without Ash and Pikachu viewing them as main faces of anime, and im sure many kids out there feel same way.
Though I really believe the opposite of them somehow SUDDENLY not caring about the story "anymore". I mean, OS had very little in the way of any overarching plots and every series afterwards (yes even BW) at least tried to have more plot and put a bit more focus on character development, how well said plots and development were executed is up to you but it's at least its there.
OS had many plots actually.
Such as St. Anne arc, episodes dealing with psychotic Sabrina, Orange islands adventure, mini arcs like encounter with Articuno and return of photographer Todd over course of several episodes in Johto,infamous GS ball. whole Whirl islands detour dealing with Whirl Cup, Lugia and dr. Namba, foreshadowing toward meeting and catching Corsola, Red Gyarados and introduction of Lance, arc dealing with Charizard disobedient issues, Misty problematic relationship with sisters and bad childhood,Brock and Misty own goals of becoming breeder and master along their issues, fears and various interests etc. And of course Ash gym quest.
It just happens they weren't polished and structured that well like subsequent sagas did(with DP probably doing best job so far in that department).
May had more development then Misty did in her entire run because she actually had a consistent character arc and an active goal to attain, she learned lessons, grew from her failures, grew as a character, and was finally able to overcome her rival by the end of it (whom she also had a developed dynamic with). That's a well rounded character and that's my point, future Pokemon series put way more emphasis on that kind of stuff then back in the good ol days, where Misty had plenty of focus but no real ultimate goal for her character, by Johto she was rather stagnant, only really getting to show her stuff in a few select episodes and then suddenly she becomes a Gym Leader. You can argue about how she became less vitriolic and more of a kinder person by the end of her run thanks to Togepi's influence but it's so slow and not all that obvious.
Ill be willing to say how Misty actually had just as much character development in emotional sense like May did with both girls going through very noticeable changes when comparing them to start of their run. Only diference is that May also got a lot more exposure on her goals and motives than Misty did, with writers fleshing out her pokemon, character and dreams(like becoming top coordinator)in more refined, exuberant way.
With Misty writers didn't focused much on her pokemon and career of becoming water pokemon master(she had a goal contrary to some belief, had desire to learn and explore water pokemon as much as she can, learn from other experts and achieve master over using this type). Also she was gym leader when traveling with Ash already, she just resumed that position when sisters called her back.
Her development mostly came from changing in personality, emotional aspect which is why most people tend to overlook it sadly, because in pokemon its expected from characters to develop their dreams they pursue and develop through their bonds with pokemon and ambitions they aim to achieve.
Through subtle and sometime direct influences it can be noticed that Misty through Orange Islands and Johto slowly but surely started to develop. Going through selfdoubts, insecurities, struggling and various situations where her resourcefulness and skills were tested(like better understanding pokemoin through coming to accept Psyduck, bonding with Marill or her Poliwhirl taching him how to overcome selfesteem issues). Connect herself with other characters like Eevee Kid, or Sakura knowing how its like to live with older siblings starting to develop confidence and more security in herself getting over complex of feeling inferior to Daisy and others.
While through Togepi, Ash and Brock company becoming more levelheaded and compassionate as characer coming strongly attached to Ash and Brock(considering them her "real family" whuch she couldnpt find when living with sisters). And most of that character development, as well Misty becoming better trainer as evidenced with Corsola or Politoad accompanied with more focus and progresssion made about her water master goal(not just in Whirl islands, but aldo through various episodes like Seaking contest, battle vs various trainers sich as Marcellus, Dorian, Andreas, Saklura etc) came from Johto. So i don't think her character stagnated in Johto. At least not one 4th gym and Morty was passed with noticeable increase in focus existing for her not just playing subrole in trying to come up with plans to resolve some problems or contribute to humor and lively dynamic. But also in more attention being given to her story.
With further growth and more noticeable results being followed on chronicles and Hoenn. Showcasing Misty coming long way having balanced mix of more understandable, playful yet hotheaded, sarcastic and rebellious demeanor in moe mature way of course.
I doubt that younger generations will know what Satoshi has did anything in the past that is too important to be replaced unless they watch the earlier series before they were born. Also I do not agree that Satoshi is the mascot while Pikachu is.
Dont feed me this. Growing as a trainer and as a character are practically interchangable, you can't just arbitrarily decide which one matters and which one doesnt.
This is POKEMON a show about GROWING STRONGER AND DEVELOPING CLOSE BONDS WITH YOUR POKEMON, being a trainer is a really BIG part of that you know, and Ash was ALL about that in DP. He arguably has the strongest sense of camaraderie with his Sinnoh team, taking the time to train with each and everyone of them to see what makes them special, lets not even get into Chimchar and how he took great strides to bond with him over the course of the series and showing the character in a new light he's never been seen before in terms of handling a Pokemon with severe emotional trauma and how the both of them had to find a way to overcome that. His abilites and style as Pokemon trianer frequentley came into question whenever he butt heads with Paul (which directly relates to his CHARACTER) and again he worked hard to overcome this. I seriously can't fathom how all of this made Ash a static character that never grew or changed.
Ash's trainer growth gets cleaned away at times for plot convenience and ultimately isn't worth spit to me since every character in this show grows as a trainer, Ash's character doesn't change. It's static, he's not a developing character, he's just a sport's hero. Referring to progression as a trainer IS NOT him changing as a person, it's him getting better at his competitive career. He's not changing himself, him handling new Pokemon moves and ability is not his character changing. It's him sharpening his skills, Chimchar's "emotional trauma" could be cut out of Ash's life in DP and you wouldn't know the difference before and after because Ash's character wasn't impacted significantly and morphed by it.
Ash's trainer growth gets cleaned away at times for plot convenience and ultimately isn't worth spit to me since every character in this show grows as a trainer, Ash's character doesn't change. It's static, he's not a developing character, he's just a sport's hero. Referring to progression as a trainer IS NOT him changing as a person, it's him getting better at his competitive career. He's not changing himself, him handling new Pokemon moves and ability is not his character changing. It's him sharpening his skills, Chimchar's "emotional trauma" could be cut out of Ash's life in DP and you wouldn't know the difference before and after because Ash's character wasn't impacted significantly and morphed by it.
I just seriously can't buy the fact that the same Ash from OS to Ag to DP doesn't count as a "developing character". Wether you classify him as just a "sports hero" him actively seeking to improve himself and his skills DOES matter towards character development, even if you ourself just write it off as all plot convinces or DEM.
When Ash lost to Paul, it really got to him, he spend the first half of the episode shaken up by it and put in a rather depressed state, balmming himself for getting his Pokemon injured from the loss, then by the end he's gets the encouragement from his friends to press forward and get past it. How is that not character development? Does there need to be a radical shift in character for it to be counted as character development? Iris doesn't change much as a character personality wise yet plenty of Iris fans sing her praises for her development as a Dragon trainer, how is that not the same thing?
You know I sometimes wonder if Veronica Taylor voiced Ash in Sinnoh combinbed with how much more into battling Ash was that saga if she would have made his character more interesting for dub audiences.
You know I sometimes wonder if Veronica Taylor voiced Ash in Sinnoh combinbed with how much more into battling Ash was that saga if she would have made his character more interesting for dub audiences.
You know I sometimes wonder if Veronica Taylor voiced Ash in Sinnoh combinbed with how much more into battling Ash was that saga if she would have made his character more interesting for dub audiences.[/quo]te
Well there's more to a character then just a voice, even though im not giving Sarah praise for most of her DP run.
The purpose of character development is to change a person enough to enable them to move past the obstacles, either external or internal, that keep them from getting what they want. It is not about changing a person’s personality just for the sake of doing so. Ash’s goal is getting stronger, his story revolves around gaining eight Gym Badges and winning a Pokemon League, and every meaningful thing he does is in service of that goal - as it should be, because that’s his story. His development has to relate to that, because there's no point in changing a character if it doesn't move them further along the way to completing their goals.
And frankly, whatever you want to think of Ash in the OS, AG, BW, or XY the question of whether or not Ash grew in DP isn’t even up for debate. Characters like Brock specifically mention it. At this point, all you can really argue is whether or not it was written well.
People have already explained why they thought Ash was stale, why won't people shut up about Veronica Taylor?
Did Sarah Natochenny make Ash forget that Paul was mean whenever he showed up? No.
Did Veronica Taylor make Ash put his life on the line for his mom? No.
Because sound, dialogue, scripts, and interactions are many ways how you get to know a character. That's why some people prefer the original raw Japanese anime with subs and some like the dubs. The same can be said for different studios doing different dubs.
Sure there'd still be problems with Ash's character, but I'm sure there would be many people who would perceive his character in a better light, especially in DP
Yes but people are assuming that other people would like D&P Ash if he was voiced by the same person even though many people explained why D&P Ash bored them - I don't go assuming that people would like Ash in BW if he had a better actor, do I? Some of them don't even watch the English dub.
He was developing from OS to AG, after that point he became static and artificial in personality from DP going forward.
Wether you classify him as just a "sports hero" him actively seeking to improve himself and his skills DOES matter towards character development, even if you ourself just write it off as all plot convinces or DEM.
Except it's simply him sharpening his skills, his character isn't changing. Just because Goku learned a super powerful move doesn't mean he's developing as a character, just became Naruto learned a new jutsu doesn't mean his character is changing. It just means he's learning a new battle trick. His skills as a trainer are not his character.
When Ash lost to Paul, it really got to him, he spend the first half of the episode shaken up by it and put in a rather depressed state, balmming himself for getting his Pokemon injured from the loss, then by the end he's gets the encouragement from his friends to press forward and get past it.
Typical Ash is typical. If he had developed, he wouldn't have taken the moment to reevaluate everything he had known about himself and we would get more privy into him and understand his mindset and how it changed from that experience. Ash literally was sad for half and episode and becomes happy for the second half are encouragement from his Pokemon. Being sad and getting over it is not character development, Ash has taken losses before and hopped back on his feet. The encounter with Brawly, that was CD. He went into that gym, got a sound beating and ultimately learned he shouldn't judge another so harshly and think he can walk all over them, he was cocky and learned firmly what was wrong about that. It's not solely him learning something for combat, it's him learning a lesson for life.
My point is, if you're going to keep Ash in the show, advance him already. I don't expect his character to actually develop anymore, but they could at least develop his goal. Like explaining the needed criteria to achieve the ever-so-vague goal of Pokemon Master for example. Or simply having the character not go through mini-resets at times for the plot. Like I said, it's normal at this point so there's no point in complaining about it.
How is that not character development? Does there need to be a radical shift in character for it to be counted as character development? Iris doesn't change much as a character personality wise yet plenty of Iris fans sing her praises for her development as a Dragon trainer, how is that not the same thing?
True, she developed as a Dragon Master and toward the goal but that wasn't it solely.(I hardly see Iris fans singing praises of her anywhere on this site.)She actually learned to be more considerate of her Pokemon's feelings after the encounter with Excadrill and proceeded to have similar issues with Dragonite, Cynthia helped her through that a bit and she ultimately jumped in front of a dangerous legendary Pokemon's attack and earned its respect. Hence that moment deepening the bond between her and her Pokemon which of course goes back to the whole Dragon Master thing. But the thing is, goal development, becoming a better Coordinator, Dragon Master, trainer, Gym Leader, etc. comes often in the show. Actual development as a character is much rarer to find. Literally every character advances in their goal at some point in this show and even then that's not set in stone with the inconsistencies in this anime. I'm talking about growing as a character, which Ash largely hasn't done in nearly a decade.
Let's look another character, Harley, he actually learns to respect May as a person after the GF and in the final appearance for Harley/Drew in AG. It isn't Harley learning some new battle tactic, it's his mindset and line of thinking changing(More better or for worse).
I just can't agree with this, the notion Ash becoming artificial in DP despite all the stuff he went through is just weird to me. A lot stuff he goes through in that series is stuff that's never been presented to the character before, therefore he had to react to them in ways that he had never done previously it a lot of it DOES feel genuine for the character, it's not like he's been reduced to some robot like people suddenly think he is. He comes of as artificial to me in, say BW because the people behind the show made it abundantly clear they they don't care about Ash's integrity as a character despite showing the contrary previously and regressed him for the sake of a semi-reboot, almost changing the character entirely to fit their criteria there's no new challenges presented to him that he has to overcome, nothing to bring him forward, everything feels like regression, THAT'S what artificial means to me. Not becoming sightly more mellow then previous seasons.
Typical Ash is typical. If he had developed, he wouldn't have taken the moment to reevaluate everything he had known about himself and we would get more privy into him and understand his mindset and how it changed from that experience. Ash literally was sad for half and episode and becomes happy for the second half are encouragement from his Pokemon. Being sad and getting over it is not character development, Ash has taken losses before and hopped back on his feet. The encounter with Brawly, that was CD. He went into that gym, got a sound beating and ultimately learned he shouldn't judge another so harshly and think he can walk all over them, he was cocky and learned firmly what was wrong about that. It's not solely him learning something for combat, it's him learning a lesson for life.
And by the same token, Ash spent the better part of DP seeing Paul as nothing but a cruel trainer who mistreats his Pokemon, based on his reference on how he treated Chimchar (a Pokemon who was incompatible with Paul unlike say, Elekid). But over time the more he learned about him the more he learned about Paul, his methods and how effective they are, and how by the end they leave on good terms, you can see that Ash realized that there was more then one way to train your Pokemon, and that HIS way wasn't always the "correct" way of doing so. Isnt that character development? Learning to respect other people's methods for training and raising Pokemon?? I figured that was a major thing he learned after seeing first hand how effective Paul's training methods were in their first full battle, completely dominating Ash.
My point is, if you're going to keep Ash in the show, advance him already. I don't expect his character to actually develop anymore, but they could at least develop his goal. Like explaining the needed criteria to achieve the ever-so-vague goal of Pokemon Master for example. Or simply having the character not go through mini-resets at times for the plot. Like I said, it's normal at this point so there's no point in complaining about it.
He comes of as artificial to me in, say BW because the people behind the show made it abundantly clear they they don't care about Ash's integrity as a character despite showing the contrary previously and regressed him for the sake of a semi-reboot, almost changing the character entirely to fit their criteria there's no new challenges presented to him that he has to overcome, nothing to bring him forward, everything feels like regression, THAT'S what artificial means to me. Not becoming sightly more mellow then previous seasons.
D&P also had him face challenges he already conquered before.
In BW, he had to use Pikachu without electric attacks - his Ottaro (Oshawott) had to learn to fight without its trademark item (don't remember those being done before).
He regressed in every other series, no matter what anyone says. If not, how do you explain his various losses? I would even go so far as to say he fought better in AG/BF than D&P.
