Why do so many people seem to dislike Sordward and Shieldbert?

[Rahus]

Rose is a worst case scenario for an attempt at a plot twist. He was just fine with being a good guy. Should of made his assistant the actual villian. That would of been more expected, admittedly, but much better than... well, then what we got.

 

[Redstar45]

Rose is a worst case scenario for an attempt at a plot twist. He was just fine with being a good guy. Should of made his assistant the actual villian. That would of been more expected, admittedly, but much better than... well, then what we got.

Problem with that we sort had that in sm villain aka Lusamine

 

[Rahus]

Problem with that we sort had that in sm villain aka Lusamine

What was wrong with Lusamine?

 

[Redstar45]

What was wrong with Lusamine?

Nothing! Just that i think that we doesn't need a repeat of her villain characteristic in Olive/Oleana during the SwSh or POCKET MONSTER : 2019 Series

 

[catzeye]

Nothing! Just that i think that we doesn't need a repeat of her villain characteristic in Olive/Oleana during the SwSh or POCKET MONSTER : 2019 Series

I mean I'd argue that we did get a repeat of Lusamine in SwSh with Rose. They're both rich owners of very important organizations in their respective regions. They seem like all around good guys at first (well bar the fact that everyone figured out they'd both be evil the moment they were revealed pre-release) but are hiding ulterior motives. Both of them are obsessed with powerful Pokemon. Both of them have children that they have complicated relationships with.

The two main differences between them is the fact that Lusamine is shown to be more straight up antagonistic where Rose's is more ambiguous and the fact that Lusamine's goal made more sense overall.

I personally don't mind Rose being a villain or the good guy. I've said this in another thread but Rose being a villain where he makes the lives of champion and gym leaders hell in order to keep the league popular could've worked. The main thing with Rose is that shoehorning the legendaries into his plot is what really hurts his villain status.

 

[Xaby]

Rose is a worst case scenario for an attempt at a plot twist. He was just fine with being a good guy. Should of made his assistant the actual villian. That would of been more expected, admittedly, but much better than... well, then what we got.

I don't know I can see the smarmy vibe from the guy right from the beginning of his introduction (the one before you even get your first Pokémon). His hair just oozes synthetic products for one thing, almost Severus Snape sleek-like.

(That and if you actually think Team Yell is going to be any more competent than Team Skull...well..good for you?)

What was wrong with Lusamine?

Other than being a total babe monster to her children in Sun and Moon that caused them to have issues throughout the game? Well being very in into Tentacle Monster fusion also raises some reeeeeaaally awkward questions (seriously Gamefreak can't you have used ANY other of the Ultra Beasts?!).

She gets loads better in USUM though.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I think Rose's storyline actually mostly works just fine, save for one huge problem; the crisis is 1000 years off. I have no idea why they chose to utterly rob this supposed crisis of any gravity by making it such a distant concern. If they had made it a more pressing and imminent problem, Rose's crazy, desperate gamble might have been more understandable. Toss in some references to the coming crisis earlier in the game and make it so after you defeat Eternatus Rose is able to remove its core and create a new power plant with it that will solve the crisis (which would also provide a canon explanation for why the player isn't able to access Eternatus's Eternamax form; the core has been removed) and you've got a pretty solid storyline overall in my opinion. Sordward and Shielbert can be making trouble on the side but they'd need some pretty big overhauling and fleshing out as characters to make for interesting main villains.

 

[Xaby]

I think Rose's storyline actually mostly works just fine, save for one huge problem; the crisis is 1000 years off. I have no idea why they chose to utterly rob this supposed crisis of any gravity by making it such a distant concern. If they had made it a more pressing and imminent problem, Rose's crazy, desperate gamble might have been more understandable. Toss in some references to the coming crisis earlier in the game and make it so after you defeat Eternatus Rose is able to remove its core and create a new power plant with it that will solve the crisis (which would also provide a canon explanation for why the player isn't able to access Eternatus's Eternamax form; the core has been removed) and you've got a pretty solid storyline overall in my opinion. Sordward and Shielbert can be making trouble on the side but they'd need some pretty big overhauling and fleshing out as characters to make for interesting main villains.

As rushed as the Galar story is in the anime right now, they do give Rose a better explanation there.

(Here be spoilers) They explained that Rose's father worked in the coal mines (probably the one Sonia shows you) and that he died while working there. This gave him the drive to search for an alternative, infinite energy source so he trapped and planned to exploit Eternatus.

 

[Akashin]

She gets loads better in USUM though.

Is that a common opinion? I thought she was a much weaker character in USUM, personally.

As rushed as the Galar story is in the anime right now, they do give Rose a better explanation there.

(Here be spoilers) They explained that Rose's father worked in the coal mines (probably the one Sonia shows you) and that he died while working there. This gave him the drive to search for an alternative, infinite energy source so he trapped and planned to exploit Eternatus.

Ehh... the core idea of his actions being extremely radical compared to their motivations is still at play there. If Rose were the head of a company researching sustainable energy, that would be a fitting response to that sort of backstory. "My dad died in a coal mine, so I'ma try to control and exploit a highly unpredictable and potentially destructive legendary Pokemon for infinite energy," is not a reasonable explanation. I'm not sure I'd say it's any better, just different.

 

[Xaby]

Ehh... the core idea of his actions being extremely radical compared to their motivations is still at play there. If Rose were the head of a company researching sustainable energy, that would be a fitting response to that sort of backstory. "My dad died in a coal mine, so I'ma try to control and exploit a highly unpredictable and potentially destructive legendary Pokemon for infinite energy," is not a reasonable explanation. I'm not sure I'd say it's any better, just different.

Well it's more of "I'm doing this so nobody has to die in a mine again." Weak and cliché, yes, but it is more relatable than the one in the game.

As for USUM Lusamine, that's a personal opinion. She's a key figure in the after game content and she even matches against you for the championship, probably to test if she can ship you with her daughter (I'm not kidding).

That and she's not batcrap insane anymore. SM Lusamine can seriously give Ghetsis a run for his money both for the Most Terrible and Manipulative Villain and Worst Parent of the World awards. Lusamine comes out more as an anti-villain in USUM.

That said anime Lusamine is the best, where she makes her own Power Rangers.

 

[Ophie]

I mean I'd argue that we did get a repeat of Lusamine in SwSh with Rose. They're both rich owners of very important organizations in their respective regions. They seem like all around good guys at first (well bar the fact that everyone figured out they'd both be evil the moment they were revealed pre-release) but are hiding ulterior motives. Both of them are obsessed with powerful Pokemon. Both of them have children that they have complicated relationships with.

Wait, who are Rose's children? The only character I can think of who is in Rose's family but is a generation younger is Peonia, who's Rose's niece, and neither of them ever meet nor talk about each other.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Honestly, I only know of the Peony/Rose relation because I've read the bit about them being brothers. Even if I didn't know that, the NPC coment about Peony looking like Rose would have flown over me and I wouldn't really understand.

 

[catzeye]

I think Rose's storyline actually mostly works just fine, save for one huge problem; the crisis is 1000 years off. I have no idea why they chose to utterly rob this supposed crisis of any gravity by making it such a distant concern.

After browsing around other forums, there is one explanation that makes 1000 years off make sense. If you look at Rose as a self-aggrandizing entreprenuer then his concern about doing things now despite no near-future gravity makes sense (to a degree). He wants to do it now because it allows him to control his own narrative. When you think about it, Rose is implied to have been to essential Galar's modern day success. The fact that all of his work going into Galar may doom it in the future isn't something he'd want to think about. That in a 1000 years his legacy would be tarnished by the fact that what drove Galar to prosperity would eventually lead it to ruin. Rose wants to control that legacy by doing things now so in 1000 years people look at him as a savior of Galar. Galar's prosperity is his pet project and he ties his own self worth to his success (a result of perfectionism and constant need for achievement thanks him to being the successful favored child between him and Peony). Also some of Rose's dialogue in game hints to his own self-importance.

When you look at Rose in that lens it makes more sense even though it's still stupid. And then there's the irony that has his rush to save Galar now ended up completely ruining his legacy. But I'm getting the impression that Rose was supposed to be an Elon Musk type with more affability and more tragic irony.

Wait, who are Rose's children? The only character I can think of who is in Rose's family but is a generation younger is Peonia, who's Rose's niece, and neither of them ever meet nor talk about each other.

Rose doesn't have children (biologically or adopted). I worded that wrong, I was talking about his connection to Bede. He didn't really adopt Bede, but Bede (given being in an orphanage) kind of looked up to him as a father figure yet Rose couldn't even remember his name

 

[Divine Retribution]

After browsing around other forums, there is one explanation that makes 1000 years off make sense. If you look at Rose as a self-aggrandizing entreprenuer then his concern about doing things now despite no near-future gravity makes sense (to a degree). He wants to do it now because it allows him to control his own narrative. When you think about it, Rose is implied to have been to essential Galar's modern day success. The fact that all of his work going into Galar may doom it in the future isn't something he'd want to think about. That in a 1000 years his legacy would be tarnished by the fact that what drove Galar to prosperity would eventually lead it to ruin. Rose wants to control that legacy by doing things now so in 1000 years people look at him as a savior of Galar. Galar's prosperity is his pet project and he ties his own self worth to his success (a result of perfectionism and constant need for achievement thanks him to being the successful favored child between him and Peony). Also some of Rose's dialogue in game hints to his own self-importance.

When you look at Rose in that lens it makes more sense even though it's still stupid. And then there's the irony that has his rush to save Galar now ended up completely ruining his legacy. But I'm getting the impression that Rose was supposed to be an Elon Musk type with more affability and more tragic irony.

Oh, I think it goes without saying that his concern over the crisis was borne largely out of egocentrism more than genuine humanitarian sentiments, but that's not really my biggest issue with it. My issue is that his "solution" to the crisis is incredibly freaking stupid. In order to solve a problem that won't actually be a problem for generations, he decides to awaken an extremely powerful entity that nearly destroyed Galar in the past, which he even acknowledges he can't control. It doesn't even matter what his motivations are at that point, that's just dumb. 1000 years is a long time, and who knows what kinds of technological advances would be made in that time that might provide alternate solutions to the crisis. Surely gambling on that would mean better odds of his reputation remaining intact than gambling on awakening Eternatus. Like you said, it was ultimately his rash and hare-brained actions that lead to his legacy being ruined; if he had done nothing there's a good chance alternate solutions to the eventual crisis might have been found and his legacy never would have been ruined at all.

The other big problem I have with the storyline is all these issues essentially evaporate if you change the timeframe of the crisis from 1000 years out to, say, 20 years out. All of a sudden this will be a problem within Rose's lifetime. He will live to see his own legacy ruined, to see the industries he created ultimately destroy the region he supposedly loves. He no longer has time to simply wait and see if the problem will fix itself; he must act now, and maybe awakening Eternatus is a gamble, maybe even a foolish one, but what choice does he have, from his perspective? This change alone would fix the biggest plot hole these games have in my opinion.

 

[Ignition]

The biggest gripe for me was the fact that they were perfect opportunities to be main villains.

Everything in the game is all about moving forward and setting the foundation for the next generation: Rose with Oleanna + his motivations, Leon with Hop + the Gym Challenge, Opal to Bede, Piers to Marnie, Magnolia to Sonia, Mustard to Klara/Avery, Peony to Peonia. Everyone is all about moving forward and continuing to be better than they were yesterday.

What do the twins want? They want acknowledgment of the “true” events of the Darkest Day and to denounce everything Sonia covered. That’s a perfect set up for the main conflict. Tradition vs progress has always been a part of Pokémon games so it wouldn’t be new territory.

They could talk about how Dynamax was seen as catastrophic when Eternatus first came to Galar and how, according to their bias, their ancestors saved them from it. So not only would they feel personally offended that the wolves get all the recognition, but also at the Galar League for using this destructive power for entertainment. Their reckless use of the Galar particles would be their insane way of showing the potential harm they can cause. They could even use Piers’ (and, by proxy, Yell) distaste for the mechanic by thinking they’re using it for good. Let them take advantage of Rose’s natural generosity to fund their efforts just to betray him by using him as a scapegoat when the Dynamax rampages start to happen. Maybe use the scene where the wolves are in pain from the exposure of GP to highlight how Gym Challengers are hurting their Pokémon (think of SM’s negative portrayal of Mega Evolution in the Pokédex). All of this manipulation just to convince people that the modern life they live isn’t as great as they think and that they should go back to the times to when their ancestors were in power. Ik this follows a somewhat similar path to BW but I think there’s enough differences to distinguish the two.

I know I just wrote a mini fanfic lol but I think this could’ve been a neat way to tie together Great Britain’s sports culture with their historical lore while also showing a clash of acknowledgment of both future generations and the foundation past generations built for them

 

[Ophie]

Oh, I think it goes without saying that his concern over the crisis was borne largely out of egocentrism more than genuine humanitarian sentiments, but that's not really my biggest issue with it. My issue is that his "solution" to the crisis is incredibly freaking stupid. In order to solve a problem that won't actually be a problem for generations, he decides to awaken an extremely powerful entity that nearly destroyed Galar in the past, which he even acknowledges he can't control. It doesn't even matter what his motivations are at that point, that's just dumb. 1000 years is a long time, and who knows what kinds of technological advances would be made in that time that might provide alternate solutions to the crisis. Surely gambling on that would mean better odds of his reputation remaining intact than gambling on awakening Eternatus. Like you said, it was ultimately his rash and hare-brained actions that lead to his legacy being ruined; if he had done nothing there's a good chance alternate solutions to the eventual crisis might have been found and his legacy never would have been ruined at all.

The other big problem I have with the storyline is all these issues essentially evaporate if you change the timeframe of the crisis from 1000 years out to, say, 20 years out. All of a sudden this will be a problem within Rose's lifetime. He will live to see his own legacy ruined, to see the industries he created ultimately destroy the region he supposedly loves. He no longer has time to simply wait and see if the problem will fix itself; he must act now, and maybe awakening Eternatus is a gamble, maybe even a foolish one, but what choice does he have, from his perspective? This change alone would fix the biggest plot hole these games have in my opinion.

In practical terms, yes, it would've made more sense if the crisis was more immediate. But what I think @catzeye was getting at is that Rose may have been intended as an Ozymandias figure (the character in the poems of the same name by Percy Bysse Shelley/Horace Smith, though the character in Watchmen can apply too as he shared the same sense of egotistical grandeur). That is, him trying to solve a conflict 1000 years in the future sounds ridiculous because it is, but he may think that he will still be remembered as an icon of Galar a millennium from now. His ego may be so big that he thinks people will still be talking about his achievements that far in the future as much as they do in the present.

That he immediately shoots down suggestions from other characters, like Leon, to see if he can find another solution is, I think, also part of his character flaws. He doesn't want the BEST solution; he wants HIS solution, and the one pertaining to Eternatus is the best one he knows at the moment. He doesn't want someone else's solution, not even someone who works for him, because then he won't feel like a savior. He wants the people of a thousand years from now to praise and admire him for actions HE had devised and taken.

In other words, the argument is that Rose's actions are more understandable if he has a deep-seated desire to be praised and admired by everyone--not just in his lifetime, but for eons to come. In such a mentality, what's practical or even ultimately better for everyone is not important, but rather, that he cannot be wrong. This is a mentality depressingly common among business owners, as a matter of fact. Oftentimes, if you see companies making questionable decisions, it's because the head wants something done, wants it done NOW, and doesn't want to hear opposing arguments to it.

What do the twins want? They want acknowledgment of the “true” events of the Darkest Day and to denounce everything Sonia covered. That’s a perfect set up for the main conflict. Tradition vs progress has always been a part of Pokémon games so it wouldn’t be new territory.

Heh, that would allow for them to have a villainous team too, consisting of people in Galar opposing or fearing change or otherwise convinced Sordward and Shielbert are right.

 

[Pokefan_1987]

They are seem like average or throwaway villains at best. But i kinda like them for their silly expressions when they lost each battle, the ridiculous hair makes it more funnier.

 

[Orphalesion]

In practical terms, yes, it would've made more sense if the crisis was more immediate. But what I think @catzeye was getting at is that Rose may have been intended as an Ozymandias figure (the character in the poems of the same name by Percy Bysse Shelley/Horace Smith, though the character in Watchmen can apply too as he shared the same sense of egotistical grandeur). That is, him trying to solve a conflict 1000 years in the future sounds ridiculous because it is, but he may think that he will still be remembered as an icon of Galar a millennium from now. His ego may be so big that he thinks people will still be talking about his achievements that far in the future as much as they do in the present.

That he immediately shoots down suggestions from other characters, like Leon, to see if he can find another solution is, I think, also part of his character flaws. He doesn't want the BEST solution; he wants HIS solution, and the one pertaining to Eternatus is the best one he knows at the moment. He doesn't want someone else's solution, not even someone who works for him, because then he won't feel like a savior. He wants the people of a thousand years from now to praise and admire him for actions HE had devised and taken.

In other words, the argument is that Rose's actions are more understandable if he has a deep-seated desire to be praised and admired by everyone--not just in his lifetime, but for eons to come. In such a mentality, what's practical or even ultimately better for everyone is not important, but rather, that he cannot be wrong. This is a mentality depressingly common among business owners, as a matter of fact. Oftentimes, if you see companies making questionable decisions, it's because the head wants something done, wants it done NOW, and doesn't want to hear opposing arguments to it.

But then they should have made that more clear in the game itself. In fact it should have been the central conflict between Rose and the PC even.

 

[Ophie]

But then they should have made that more clear in the game itself. In fact it should have been the central conflict between Rose and the PC even.

And I'd agree with you there. My impression is that this entire plot thread was obliterated rushing the game out to meet the 2019 holiday season.

The presence of the factory on Route 3, that there are so many branches of Macro Cosmos as seen in Poké Jobs, the large amount of unused industrial space in Motostoke, and the underutilization of everything in Wyndon named after Chairman Rose leads me to believe that Macro Cosmos was originally planned to have a much larger presence. It looks like Macro Cosmos was meant to be the behind-the-scenes villainous team much like Aether Foundation was in Alola, though focused on industry and urbanization to contrast with Aether Foundation's focus on conservationalism and nature.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I don’t dislike them but I also don’t like them either. To me they are just your average antagonists in a Pokémon game being similar to evil Team Admins where you usually don’t have any particular feelings towards them most of the time especially in GSC and with Plasma.