• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Why do you think switching protagonists will not make the show better?

deliaketchum

Well-Known Member
I think the series more than 20 yrs old will become too repetitive and saturated. After so much time, there isnt much you can do. They wont change protaganist soon for marketing reasons.

Maybe they can start fresh with new protaganist from pallet town again. like remake of all regions.
 

Morax

King of heroes
Eh, it depends on which type of anime you want for Pokémon. If you want to focus more on the story of how the main character try to achieve its goals, then yes, some changes to Pokémon structure, format and narrative are needed.

But other types of anime can work with Pokémon's current format, but of course those usually don't take the plot in a serious way, most of the time.
Pokemon is shounen through and through. I don't think any other genre describes it better.
 
Last edited:

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Definitely this IMO, starting with retconing the already retconned process of catching Pokemon (which I feel was only rewritten to PokeGO format to favor Goh).
I can understand not liking it but how is it a retcon? People throw that term around like anything if the show does something they don't like. Goh catching Pokémon isn't a retcon! It's consistent with how it always worked!
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
The problem is that the anime used to have characters correcting people for trying to catch pokémon without battling/weaken it first. I recall Ash doing it with May back in the anime (memory's foggy though) and even Ash himself had that told to him. Yet, he didn't do it when Goh started his catching spree. Sure, Ash is forgetful but still...
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
I can understand not liking it but how is it a retcon? People throw that term around like anything if the show does something they don't like. Goh catching Pokémon isn't a retcon! It's consistent with how it always worked!
I hope this is a joking comment because the retcon is obvious. The anime for decades has always established that catching a pokemon explicitly requires you to actually battle and weaken the pokemon first before catching it (unless the pokemon itself just purposely chooses to be captured and nulls that requirement on some rare occasions).

Journeys using the Pokemon GO format completely retcons that as Goh (and even Ash and others) just catch pokemon without typically battling them now.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I hope this is a joking comment because the retcon is obvious. The anime for decades has always established that catching a pokemon explicitly requires you to actually battle and weaken the pokemon first before catching it (unless the pokemon itself just purposely chooses to be captured and nulls that requirement on some rare occasions).

Journeys using the Pokemon GO format completely retcons that as Goh (and even Ash and others) just catch pokemon without typically battling them now.
You never had to weaken a Pokémon to catch it! It was only advisable to do so as it makes it easier to catch a Pokémon, a fact that is followed when Goh battles strong Pokémon he's unable to catch directly. So yes, it's not a retcon, it fits. Ash not telling Goh to weaken first but telling May isn't a retcon lol, it's character inconsistency that happens all the time with him. Goh knows you have to battle a Pokémon to weaken it and make it easier to catch which is why that's always his second reaction when he fails to catch it in a first try. It doesn't break the laws of an established universe, so no, it isn't a retcon
 

Ryker101

Well-Known Member
I doubt it’ll make the anime much better because there’s only so much they can change with a new protagonist. Ash already fulfills the role he needs to, so unless they decide to change their plans doe the anime or something, a new protagonist won’t make much of a difference in the long term.

Also Ash has the benefit of continuity, which makes the world more dynamic and rewards long time fans. It’s harder to pull off without him.
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
I doubt it’ll make the anime much better because there’s only so much they can change with a new protagonist. Ash already fulfills the role he needs to, so unless they decide to change their plans doe the anime or something, a new protagonist won’t make much of a difference in the long term.

Also Ash has the benefit of continuity, which makes the world more dynamic and rewards long time fans. It’s harder to pull off without him.
You’re missing the point here. The talk about replacing ash isn’t based on ‘what can a new protagonist bring’ but based on ‘what more can ash even do?’.

Ash is already being pointed to fight the strongest trainer in the world within the narrative. What more can he do after that? Going back to badge quest? Continuity would just make people angrier if he gets dumbed down again like BW. A new protagonist isn’t to do anything different, but to reset the series to the status quo.
 

Ryker101

Well-Known Member
You’re missing the point here. The talk about replacing ash isn’t based on ‘what can a new protagonist bring’ but based on ‘what more can ash even do?’.

Ash is already being pointed to fight the strongest trainer in the world within the narrative. What more can he do after that? Going back to badge quest? Continuity would just make people angrier if he gets dumbed down again like BW. A new protagonist isn’t to do anything different, but to reset the series to the status quo.

If they wanna keep him around they’ll always find a reason to. Ash won battle frontier but he went back to doing another gym quest in DP. He won a league but he’s still ongoing. Even was the overhauled from Kalos to Alola. Whether it’s being a mentor figure for future trainers, title defense for Alola or a new goal entirely, there’s always something for him to do. We don’t even know how gen 9 will go yet.

I could see Ash taking a backseat and appearing less frequently, whilst someone else does the standard stuff. But I doubt he’ll be replaced altogether.
 

Dragonsoldier77

Bittersweet Satisfaction
If they wanna keep him around they’ll always find a reason to. Ash won battle frontier but he went back to doing another gym quest in DP. He won a league but he’s still ongoing. Even was the overhauled from Kalos to Alola. Whether it’s being a mentor figure for future trainers, title defense for Alola or a new goal entirely, there’s always something for him to do. We don’t even know how gen 9 will go yet.

I could see Ash taking a backseat and appearing less frequently, whilst someone else does the standard stuff. But I doubt he’ll be replaced altogether.
Battle frontier might’ve as well just been another gym quest, and doesn’t have the instant recognition of the league. Since the league and champions has always been the center point of the games as well. Now, while they avoided the gym quest with the PWC, leon is the aim. They even raised the stakes by making it a world series. You can’t make him do something limited to a region again.

If he takes the backseat and be a mentor he’s no longer the protagonist isn’t he? He’ll just be a supporting character, to a new protagonist.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
You never had to weaken a Pokémon to catch it! It was only advisable to do so as it makes it easier to catch a Pokémon, a fact that is followed when Goh battles strong Pokémon he's unable to catch directly.
Have evidence for this? Because this was explicitly explained on several occasions in the anime prior to Journeys, which im pretty sure is a more credible takeaway on the matter of catching pokemon.

So unless you have something that says it was only "Advised" and not a requirement, it is a retcon.
Ash not telling Goh to weaken first but telling May isn't a retcon lol, it's character inconsistency that happens all the time with him.
"All the time" is a big understatement when Ash has, since by the time of XY and onward at least, never suffered from character inconsistency when it comes to Pokemon Trainer basics 101. Id say even DP Ash knew all of the basics from beginning to end and only suffered from "character inconsistency" around the time BW came in (since it rebooted his experience).

And even then, the point your missing here is that its not just Goh doing this. Everyone in Journeys catches Pokemon now like he and Pokemon GO players do, under this new format that never commonly existed in the anime before. Battling a pokemon in order to catch it has become an extreme rarity in Journeys to the point where it only happens once every blue moon, something that was far more prevalent and common in previous series. Even if not a retcon like you claim it isn't, it is far far more than simple character inconsistency. Its, at the bare minimum, blatant bad writing for throwing a common theme and rule the anime previously followed out the window (and thats saying something given the usual flaws the series writing has).
Goh knows you have to battle a Pokémon to weaken it and make it easier to catch which is why that's always his second reaction when he fails to catch it in a first try.
And thats the issue. It shouldnt be a second reaction to pokemon catching, it should always be the immediate reaction to catching them. As was commonly established in the anime prior.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Have evidence for this? Because this was explicitly explained on several occasions in the anime prior to Journeys, which im pretty sure is a more credible takeaway on the matter of catching pokemon.

So unless you have something that says it was only "Advised" and not a requirement, it is a retcon.

"All the time" is a big understatement when Ash has, since by the time of XY and onward at least, never suffered from character inconsistency when it comes to Pokemon Trainer basics 101. Id say even DP Ash knew all of the basics from beginning to end and only suffered from "character inconsistency" around the time BW came in (since it rebooted his experience).

And even then, the point your missing here is that its not just Goh doing this. Everyone in Journeys catches Pokemon now like he and Pokemon GO players do, under this new format that never commonly existed in the anime before. Battling a pokemon in order to catch it has become an extreme rarity in Journeys to the point where it only happens once every blue moon, something that was far more prevalent and common in previous series. Even if not a retcon like you claim it isn't, it is far far more than simple character inconsistency. Its, at the bare minimum, blatant bad writing for throwing a common theme and rule the anime previously followed out the window (and thats saying something given the usual flaws the series writing has).

And thats the issue. It shouldnt be a second reaction to pokemon catching, it should always be the immediate reaction to catching them. As was commonly established in the anime prior.
Evidence? Bro thats literally how catching works and has always worked in Pokemon, what are you even talking about? Prior to journeys it was always said weakening a pokemon before catching it makes it easier, never that its impossible to do so, esp considering the games mechanics. Cmon now, Ash LITERALLY caught caterpie without battling it, you know, THE FIRST CAPTURE EVER SHOWN?
It ISNT a retcon, it was never compulsory, pretending otherwise is just being stubborn to keep up that point. Which other characters besides Goh have been capturing pokemon like that??? And even now Goh weakens the hard ones to catch.
Sure if you have a problem with Ash not calling Goh out for not weakening mons (even tho he advised Goh to weaken Venonat in ep6 after Goh was unable to catch it) thats fine, but that doesnt mean Goh's method is a retcon. Thats the main point
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
Evidence? Bro thats literally how catching works and has always worked in Pokemon, what are you even talking about? Prior to journeys it was always said weakening a pokemon before catching it makes it easier, never that its impossible to do so, esp considering the games mechanics. Cmon now, Ash LITERALLY caught caterpie without battling it, you know, THE FIRST CAPTURE EVER SHOWN?
Okay and I was asking you to provide a scene in the anime that actually states that. Hence, "evidence"

Granted, I'd give you Ash catching caterpie, but I also on the other hand wouldnt take the first series as credible proof given how massively inconsistent and gag like this season of the anime is (when this is the same season Ash tried catching a rice ball with a poke ball).
It ISNT a retcon, it was never compulsory, pretending otherwise is just being stubborn to keep up that point. Which other characters besides Goh have been capturing pokemon like that??? And even now Goh weakens the hard ones to catch.
I already pointed out he battles the "hard ones" before catching them, because those are the rare occasions in Journeys where actually working for the catch is done. Otherwise, it's not done like this.
Sure if you have a problem with Ash not calling Goh out for not weakening mons (even tho he advised Goh to weaken Venonat in ep6 after Goh was unable to catch it) thats fine, but that doesnt mean Goh's method is a retcon. Thats the main point
If the anime for most of its life has consistently followed the trend that battling is the main common method of catching a pokemon (unless, again, the pokemon purposely submits on some occasions and wants to be captured, like has happened for Ash and his friends on some occasions), then its established in-universe that battling is whats supposed to be leading up to the captures and that doing it without battling is a rarity.

Journeys has made that rarity the new common trend, which is why I find it a retcon, or rewriting what has happened to implement Pokemon GO catching mechanics for Goh.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
Okay and I was asking you to provide a scene in the anime that actually states that. Hence, "evidence"

Granted, I'd give you Ash catching caterpie, but I also on the other hand wouldnt take the first series as credible proof given how massively inconsistent and gag like this season of the anime is (when this is the same season Ash tried catching a rice ball with a poke ball).

I already pointed out he battles the "hard ones" before catching them, because those are the rare occasions in Journeys where actually working for the catch is done. Otherwise, it's not done like this.

If the anime for most of its life has consistently followed the trend that battling is the main common method of catching a pokemon (unless, again, the pokemon purposely submits on some occasions and wants to be captured, like has happened for Ash and his friends on some occasions), then its established in-universe that battling is whats supposed to be leading up to the captures and that doing it without battling is a rarity.

Journeys has made that rarity the new common trend, which is why I find it a retcon, or rewriting what has happened to implement Pokemon GO catching mechanics for Goh.
So I give you evidence where Ash literally catches a mon before battling it and it isnt credible? What? Yea thats just bias talking, youre discrediting actual factual evidence. That scene wasnt a gag like the rice ball scene how is that even comparable? Again have they made it so Goh has more plot armor? Sure. But it ISNT a retcon, thats not how retcon works! Wanting to showcase Pokemon Go is the reason for the plot armor which you can dislike the writing if you want but again
Not. A. Retcon.
 

KukuiFanatic501

Well-Known Member
So I give you evidence where Ash literally catches a mon before battling it and it isnt credible? What? Yea thats just bias talking, youre discrediting actual factual evidence. That scene wasnt a gag like the rice ball scene how is that even comparable?
I discredit it because, like I said, the OG series is incredibly inconsistent and goes against itself on a lot of things. And given the later instances the anime gives about needing to battle a pokemon to catch it happen afterwards (like Ash and May reminding each other as said before, or Dawn's multiple attempts to catch buneary as another example), when the anime became much more serious, that further consolidates my doubt.

Also, didn't Caterpie initially like Ash?
Again have they made it so Goh has more plot armor? Sure. But it ISNT a retcon, thats not how retcon works! Wanting to showcase Pokemon Go is the reason for the plot armor which you can dislike the writing if you want but again
Not. A. Retcon.
And your fine to disagree with me as well, just as I disagree with you.

Catching a pokemon without battling it has absolutely never been such a largely common trend like Journeys treats it as now currently. Whether rule breaking or simply changing the said trend to make something that was once rare an everyday thing, this is something that directly goes against what the anime typically did. Especially for Ash and the previous characters. So I disagree with it not being a retcon.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
I discredit it because, like I said, the OG series is incredibly inconsistent and goes against itself on a lot of things. And given the later instances the anime gives about needing to battle a pokemon to catch it happen afterwards (like Ash and May reminding each other as said before, or Dawn's multiple attempts to catch buneary as another example), when the anime became much more serious, that further consolidates my doubt.

Also, didn't Caterpie initially like Ash?

And your fine to disagree with me as well, just as I disagree with you.

Catching a pokemon without battling it has absolutely never been such a largely common trend like Journeys treats it as now currently. Whether rule breaking or simply changing the said trend to make something that was once rare an everyday thing, this is something that directly goes against what the anime typically did. Especially for Ash and the previous characters. So I disagree with it not being a retcon.
There was no hint of caterpie liking Ash before being captured. OS could be inconsistent with gags but that doesn't mean the entirety of it should be disregarded, esp the captures. Ig yea, agree to disagree
 
Top