Why do you think switching protagonists will not make the show better?

[Dragalge]

Ash is the embodiment of "never give up no matter how hard it gets" and OS-XY captured that feeling perfectly. I don't know what SM and PM are supposed to represent because ash is a total mary sue now...

No BW Ash taught us to not be a dumby and lose to a worse dumby

 

[Morax]

but I'm not sure this show has pulled a satisfying one yet

Agreed

 

[KukuiFanatic501]

Ash is the embodiment of "never give up no matter how hard it gets" and OS-XY captured that feeling perfectly. I don't know what SM and PM are supposed to represent because ash is a total mary sue now...

How is SM Ash a Mary Sue? Current Ash I can understand given he's just being handed a powerhouse team he barely uses, but SM Ash still captures the same elements of his character that Ash had in previous seasons as well.

 

[KukuiFanatic501]

BTW, to respond to this earlier post about other-series protagonists, I disagree with some of these takes.

I prefer protagonists that are beatable regularly in general, and moreso that train and don't rely on MacGuffins.

Yusei was a Marty Stu who cheated with his Signer abilities, as was Yusaku with his unfai advantage.

Yugi cheated with Ancient Egyptian artifacts.

Jaden cheated with a pendant, an insider at Industrial Illusions giving him free OP cards that weren't released to the public at large, and Duel Spirits.

This I agree with. Yu-Gi-Oh protagonists have always held onto MacGuffins as secret ingredients to their plot armors and is not uncommon. Yuma is arguably the only exception since he started off the series as very weak (and even then, eventually fell to having a MacGuffin IIRC).

Naruto and Boruto cheat with forbidden powers.

This is where I start to disagree. Especially with Boruto.

While Naruto was bestowed with "forbidden powers" upon birth via Nine Tails, im not seeing how he cheats with them. Naruto started his series off, again, very weak and was fodder amongst everyone. He had to train in order to master Kurama's power, which for much of the series was treated as something that could prove fatal to him if he could not master it. There's a difference between being handed a power and becoming invincible, and being handed a power you need to actively work towards in order to master. Naruto is the latter.

Boruto is even more an exception here since unlike his dad, Boruto doesn't rely on any special ability. He doesn't have a huge arsenal of power like Naruto did as a Jinchuriki, he is a regular ninja with regular ninja limitations, and thus, can't win every battle just by powering through every opponent. He has to rely more on skill and intelligence than brute force. The only special power he has atm is Karma, which he has no mastery of and doesn't use as his main weapon.

Deku cheats by leeching off an ancient forbidden Quirk.

Again, this is the same as above. Deku needed to train to even use O.F.A. in the first place, and for much of MHA, it would destroy his body when he used it since he could not handle its power yet. On top of that, Deku doesn't win every fight he's in with O.F.A. and like Boruto, use's intelligence and planning to help get out of his situations.

Ichigo cheats by going Hollow.

Agreeing on this. Ichigo...is a mix of everything pretty much.

Avatars cheat with the Avatar State.

Very much disagree on this one too, for the most part.

It's made painfully clear in TLA and LoK that the Avatar State is something only fully realized Avatars are able to access and use properly after first mastering the elements. The only times its been used as a kind of "Get Out of Jail Free Card" is when Aang randomly went berserk with it.

And even then, the series itself specifies that being killed in the Avatar State is pretty much a permanent end to the Avatar, so it's not some invincible ability.

Hence why Goku, Saitama and BoBobo-bo Bo-bobo are better than Ash, who is better than most of the other main character cheaters.

Because they and the few others TRAIN TO EARN their reality-busting bullshit without MacGuffins, Ash has trained his MacGuffin, while most other anime protagonists cheat via MacGuffin, and are too incompetent, goofy and/or weak without them.

Again, disagreeing with this since some of the people you mentioned above, do in fact, train to earn their powers as well.

And as someone earlier mentioned, what made you think Goku earned Ultra Instinct? Or Super Saiyan God? Or even Super Saiyan? The latter he activated just because Krillin died, and the former he got through outside help, then it magically became a permanent part of Goku's arsenal of powers that led him, somehow, get to Super Saiyan God Blue. At least Vegeta didn't need help to get the form within his repertoire.

 

[RafaSceptile]

How is SM Ash a Mary Sue? Current Ash I can understand given he's just being handed a powerhouse team he barely uses, but SM Ash still captures the same elements of his character that Ash had in previous seasons as well.

As far as I know, because Ash won and apparently he was plot-armored during the series, but oh spoilers, most of the time Ash was plot-armored

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Oh, please, Ash is far and away from being a Mary Sue outside the usual overdone praises people have for him until he crashes and Blast burns. If anything, he's this:

Expectation Lowerer - TV Tropes

A character who exists to provide a flattering contrast to the audience by being worse than them in some specific respect. This trope exists on a sliding scale of scorn; at one end the character simply exists as a flattering contrast to the …

tvtropes.org

"My advice would be to bring a friend that has your basic characteristics, but is slightly less attractive."
— Dan Arieli gives dating tips in Predictably Irrational

A character who exists to provide a flattering contrast to the audience by being worse than them in some specific respect.

This trope exists on a sliding scale of scorn; at one end the character simply exists as a flattering contrast to the audience (the Idiot Hero often fits here). At this end of the spectrum, the audience thinks "if this character can do x, then I certainly can do x!"

On the other end of scorn scale is the harder version, where a character is made pathetic so the audience can feel better about themselves (via Schadenfreude). The Ditz, a very common trope in Sitcoms, is this (but Played for Laughs).

Arguably an Expectation Lowerer is an Inversion of Escapist Character; Escapist Characters allow you to feel good by giving you an Audience Surrogate that you can experience awesomeness through. An Expectation Lowerer makes you feel good in the exact opposite way; you cannot identify with this character because they, in at least one respect, are worse than you.

Not to be confused with This Loser Is You; where a character you identify with is the character that sucks. This Loser Is You basically flings the audience's faults back into their face whereas an Expectation Lowerer allows them to distance themselves from their faults.

Compare/Contrast the Mary Sue, a character who (like the Expectation Lowerer) the audience does not identify with, but due to the character's strengths rather than weaknesses.

If we really want to bring a true Mary Sue, that would be the league rivals that lack backstories and win everything without showing a single flaw to exploit. If we want to have a more recurring sample that dangerously borders on being a straight Mary Sue, that's Goh, no doubt about it.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Ash is the embodiment of "never give up no matter how hard it gets" and OS-XY captured that feeling perfectly. I don't know what SM and PM are supposed to represent because ash is a total mary sue now...

How is SM or Journeys Ash a Mary Sue?

 

[KukuiFanatic501]

As far as I know, because Ash won and apparently he was plot-armored during the series, but oh spoilers, most of the time Ash was plot-armored

More against him the for him

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

And as someone earlier mentioned, what made you think Goku earned Ultra Instinct? Or Super Saiyan God? Or even Super Saiyan? The latter he activated just because Krillin died, and the former he got through outside help, then it magically became a permanent part of Goku's arsenal of powers that led him, somehow, get to Super Saiyan God Blue. At least Vegeta didn't need help to get the form within his repertoire.

Goku didn't earn Ultra Instinct it just magically happened after he got stomped by Jiren.He got Super Saiyan from the death of Krillin but prior to that he trained in his base form to the point of almost reaching that level.Goten and Kid Trunks easily got super saiyan without even having to train along with Kale,Caulifla and Cabba.In the hyperbolic time chamber Goku and Gohan both trained and mastered SSJ before fighting Cell.In Super Goku was training alongside Vegeta to learn Super Saiyan Blue.

 

[Morax]

How is SM Ash a Mary Sue? Current Ash I can understand given he's just being handed a powerhouse team he barely uses, but SM Ash still captures the same elements of his character that Ash had in previous seasons as well.

Because the amount of plot armor he had was ridiculous
>1 vs 1 battles until the semi-finals
>melmetal
>naganadel
>rowlet
>guzma defeating himself
>counter the counter with counter
>Absorb the blast burn with your magically bell!
>pikamehameha
This makes him look privileged and special, like the league was tailor made for him. It doesn't capture that same feeling.

How is SM or Journeys Ash a Mary Sue?

Ash from OS to XY was never the "strongest" character in the region. Now when it's time for him to win, writers gave him all sorts of ridiculous power-ups. I don't know about you but that made me root for him even less, that "underdog" i loved was now the tobias. All in all it wasn't a satisfactory victory because nobody was actually a threat to ash in alola.

Journeys ain't over yet so i shouldn't judging him so soon, apologies.

 

[WaterTypeStarter]

Now stick to the topic. Stop discussing things like Ash having plot armor among other things. I have not watched lot of the anime so I won't try to debate. But this thread is not about that.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Because the amount of plot armor he had was ridiculous
>1 vs 1 battles until the semi-finals
>melmetal
>naganadel
>rowlet
>guzma defeating himself
>counter the counter with counter
>Absorb the blast burn with your magically bell!
>pikamehameha
This makes him look privileged and special, like the league was tailor made for him. It doesn't capture that same feeling.


Ash from OS to XY was never the "strongest" character in the region. Now when it's time for him to win, writers gave him all sorts of ridiculous power-ups. I don't know about you but that made me root for him even less, that "underdog" i loved was now the tobias. All in all it wasn't a satisfactory victory because nobody was actually a threat to ash in alola.

Journeys ain't over yet so i shouldn't judging him so soon, apologies.

1. Melmetal wasn't plot armor, he evolved before combat and Even then, he was defeated
2. Naganadel appeared after Ash's victory and only for the Exhibición Match
3. Rowlet was stronger than Decidueye. If someone, Hau was the one who almost was plot armored by Nanu's fault.
4. That's how Emergency Exit works, it is not plot armor
5. Moves don't works the exact same in the games and in the anime. This is True since OS.
6. Explained by Torracat's description about its Bell in the Pokédex. Ironically, similar to Rowlet falling asleep

The only special thing about Ash in SM was 10MV Thunderbolt, and this is not worse than Ash-Greninja as a supposedly plot armor.

Ah, and winning doesn't makes You a Gary Stu or Mary Sue, and the power-ups were present since previous series as well.

 

[Kuzehiko]

Because the amount of plot armor he had was ridiculous
>1 vs 1 battles until the semi-finals
>melmetal
>naganadel
>rowlet
>guzma defeating himself
>counter the counter with counter
>Absorb the blast burn with your magically bell!
>pikamehameha
This makes him look privileged and special, like the league was tailor made for him. It doesn't capture that same feeling.


Ash from OS to XY was never the "strongest" character in the region. Now when it's time for him to win, writers gave him all sorts of ridiculous power-ups. I don't know about you but that made me root for him even less, that "underdog" i loved was now the tobias. All in all it wasn't a satisfactory victory because nobody was actually a threat to ash in alola.

Journeys ain't over yet so i shouldn't judging him so soon, apologies.

I won't even get started dude.
You don't know what a Mary sue even is. Having plot benefits does not make you a mary sue automatically. Yes he had plot benefits in SM and that is one of the reasons why I dislike it but no way he is a Mary Sue. Mary Sue is a perfect character and free of flaws. He ain't that ****. He sure got benefits, I will not discuss that because it's true but as I said having plot benefits is not the same as being a Mary Sue. Glad you realized it's too early to judge on Journeys Ash.

 

[Aryash Bajaj]

The bar to be called a Mary Sue has raised ever since Rey "Skywalker" came to existence.

 

[mehmeh1]

While Naruto was bestowed with "forbidden powers" upon birth via Nine Tails, im not seeing how he cheats with them. Naruto started his series off, again, very weak and was fodder amongst everyone. He had to train in order to master Kurama's power, which for much of the series was treated as something that could prove fatal to him if he could not master it. There's a difference between being handed a power and becoming invincible, and being handed a power you need to actively work towards in order to master. Naruto is the latter.

tbh the bigger issue with Naruto is him many times (particularly in his fight with Neiji) preaching about how hard work will triumph over natural talent and that destiny/fate doesn't matter......only for it to turn out that he had natural talent and destiny in his favor all along

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

We can all agree that the only character that made sense was Shikamaru and his entire family.

Because Nara Clan is best clan, hands down, and not even a competition.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Excluding the Nine Tails power the hardest I've seen Naruto train was when he was learning how to use the Rasengan,could also throw Rasenshuriken and Sage Mode in there as well.Naruto's training at Mount Myoboku was similar to Goku's training on King Kai's planet,at that point both became so much stronger than their peers and were the only ones capable of standing up to the main antagonist.

 

[Morax]

You don't know what a Mary sue even is

Kindly do more research on the topic.

This is XY ash :

Mary Sue as Idealized Character​

[ The interpretation that Mary Sue is a character that is idealized to a fault. A very influential interpretation, this one tends to get applied to most discussions. This theory posits that a Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. This tends to draw the most debate, as this model of character is extremely common, and also a lot more accepted than people give it credit for. Charles Dickens, one of the established classic authors, used to specialize in creating characters like this. A lot of characters in both male- and female-centric fiction simply lack meaningful flaws, but are more than accepted because they work as Escapism for the audience ]

And this is SM ash :

Mary Sue as Infallible Character​

[ This is when the idea is that Mary Sue is a character that simply never fails. This might sound less subjective than many of the other definitions, but in practice it's at least as bad — very few characters are truly infallible, because initial failures are such an obvious way to create drama and make the eventual victory that much sweeter. Conversely, there are plenty of well-liked fictional heroes who are mostly infallible, because watching them succeed is usually more satisfying than investing your emotional energy into failures. And on the third hand, there's plenty of wiggle room around what really counts as failure. What if the character fails at lots of insignificant things (they can't learn to play the banjo, they can't cook a decent meal, they never manage to show up on time for meetings), but always succeeds at anything remotely important? What if they frequently don't succeed at what they set out to do, but the author always makes it very clear that the failure wasn't really the character's fault? And so on, and on, and on. ]

 

[Shadao]

I often have read of people wanting Ash to leave and thinking the show would be better if they switched up protagonists for each generation. I am not personally into the Pokémon TV series, but would like to see what the other side thinks, namely that keeping Ash as the main character has been the right choice, and switching will do nothing to improve.

I would not say switching up the protagonists would do nothing to improve, but I will say that Ash (and to a lesser extent, Red) has a significant influence upon the anime that even he should leave the show, we the audience still want to hear his adventures and exploits. After all, you may play as new character in Gen II, but fans salivated over any rumors or gossips within the game about the previous character, Red, and his whereabouts. Sort of like Luke Skywalker in many ways.

Switching up protagonists freshen up the story and premise, but that would also mean losing the audience that grew up with the original protagonist. After all, it's not their generation's Pokémon, but rather the next generation's. There's nothing wrong with that but keeping the old protagonist, in the same vein you keep Goku or Luffy around for decades, does ensure that the old generation doesn't fully drop out from the anime series and will still keep an eye on the show.

That is why the Alola League got so much hype building up despite the lower stakes. The studio invoked nostalgia of the past Leagues and hinted that there would be something different about this League. And we all know how social media reacted when Ash did the unthinkable (at least those not paying close attention).

I doubt you would generate as much hype if it was a brand new character.

 

[Morax]

I would not say switching up the protagonists would do nothing to improve, but I will say that Ash (and to a lesser extent, Red) has a significant influence upon the anime that even he should leave the show, we the audience still want to hear his adventures and exploits. After all, you may play as new character in Gen II, but fans salivated over any rumors or gossips within the game about the previous character, Red, and his whereabouts. Sort of like Luke Skywalker in many ways.

Switching up protagonists freshen up the story and premise, but that would also mean losing the audience that grew up with the original protagonist. After all, it's not their generation's Pokémon, but rather the next generation's. There's nothing wrong with that but keeping the old protagonist, in the same vein you keep Goku or Luffy around for decades, does ensure that the old generation doesn't fully drop out from the anime series and will still keep an eye on the show.

That is why the Alola League got so much hype building up despite the lower stakes. The studio invoked nostalgia of the past Leagues and hinted that there would be something different about this League. And we all know how social media reacted when Ash did the unthinkable (at least those not paying close attention).

I doubt you would generate as much hype if it was a brand new character.

Can't speak for others but i want them to switch protagonists so that it would serve as a closure to ash, kind of like boruto. I want him to grow up, settle down, have a family and achieve his dream.