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Why exactly are evasive moves despised so much?

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Shiny Venusaur

Internet Relic
Yeah, I guess what I was really getting at is that moves which solely lower the opponents' stats are generally unpopular in competitive play. Stat-lowering is seen as fine if it's an added bonus to an attack or switch-in, but it seems no one wants to use a move to lower the opponent's stats and do nothing else most of the time from what I recall.

Though strangely enough, you don't see too many players using mud slap or muddy water all that often, so accuracy-lowering seems to still be unpopular as a whole for some reason.

It's player choice, as Mud Slap has low power and Muddy Water has poor accuracy, making the secondary effects not worth the hassle.

Stat lowering of opponents is used quiet a bit in singles because it forces your opponent to react in a way that allows you to start to dictate the play. It allows you the ability to force a switch, make a double switch, or get a hit off for free. Evasion doesn't do any of that. It takes mind games and strategy out of it. Your incentive to react is much different than any other stat increase or decrease.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Evasion isn't used much because setting up lots of double team isn't just sacrificing the moveslot, it also sacrifices turns for what is, at least on average, poor gains. It is almost completely free setup for your opponent to set up a better win condition, break through your double teamer (they only need one hit after a lot of setup and a 1 in 3 isn't that bad, the accuracy can also be bypassed with stuff like Z-moves), and then you just get swept. More often than not it just doesn't pay off at all. On average the gains you get from evasion boosting are just very poor compared to almost any other setup.

There's also a lot of other things besides Z-moves or max moves that just shut this stuff down, that really don't require any niche things. Toxapex for instance is popular in singles, it can just come in, set up its perfectly accurate Toxic on the double teamer, and then just stall it out or just Haze away the double teams. And Toxic or Haze are far from gimmicky moves on Toxapex. Aegislash is popular in both singles and doubles, it can just come in, use Swords Dance once or twice, then Sacred Sword through the evasion boosts, and then proceed to go for a sweep. Terrakion and Kartana can do the same.
 
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Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Yeah, I guess what I was really getting at is that moves which solely lower the opponents' stats are generally unpopular in competitive play. Stat-lowering is seen as fine if it's an added bonus to an attack or switch-in, but it seems no one wants to use a move to lower the opponent's stats and do nothing else most of the time from what I recall.

Though strangely enough, you don't see too many players using mud slap or muddy water all that often, so accuracy-lowering seems to still be unpopular as a whole for some reason.
The flip side is true as well, as in double battling, I rarely see stat boosting status moves. If they boost their stats, it's likely going to be accompanied by damage, though admittedly there aren't that many out there and their power is lousy (like Power-Up Punch) or thei have terrible drawbacks (like Skull Bash). I think it's because it's too risky to use up a turn without dealing damage, as they may get ganged up on during the turn they're boosting and likely get knocked out. This is part of why Indeedee (female) is so popular, as she's the one Follow Me user who can't be countered with priority moves except under extraordinary circumstances, allowing the partner one turn to do setup with little fear of being attacked.

Mud-Slap is rare because it has a low base power. Muddy Water is overshadowed by Scald; in single battling, this is due to its lower accuracy, while in double battling, this is due to the reduced damage due to being a spread move. In both cases, Scald's accuracy is higher. The presence of Dracovish has also caused a rise in Pokémon with Abilities like Storm Drain, Dry Skin, and Water Absorb, and spread Water moves run the risk of accidentally powering up an opposing Pokémon. These Pokémon continue to see high usage even after Dracovish's popularity waned.

As far as accuracy and evasion games go though, I do see Japanese players unafraid of using Sand Veil, and to a lesser extent Snow Cloak. Sand Veil Garchomp is just as common as Rough Skin Garchomp among Japanese Ranked players I see online, probably because Garchomp is bulky enough to be able to last long enough for at least one attack to get evaded. Though not as common as it used to be, Snow Cloak Glaceon and Mamoswine used to be present among Japanese players as well.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
As a counter, don't moves like Sweet Scent and Defog exist?
Competitive battlers wouldn't use those moves since they'd take up space that could be used for more important moves. Even casual players wouldn't bother with either of these moves: I've only ever taught Defog to a few of my Pokemon in D/P/Pt, and only to clear fog with in the overworld.
 

Ultra Beast Lover

Well-Known Member
I personally don't use moves like Double Team because it feels like I'm wasting my turn instead of hitting the other Pokemon, thereby risking a loss. Also, as other users have said, it's not much of a strategy, just probability manipulation.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
I personally don't use moves like Double Team because it feels like I'm wasting my turn instead of hitting the other Pokemon, thereby risking a loss. Also, as other users have said, it's not much of a strategy, just probability manipulation.
I feel the same way. Plus it always seems like I always get hit even if I maxed out evasion using Double Team yet if a NPC uses it once, I never get a hit! Same with Thunder Wave and paralysis. The only evasion/accuracy lowering moves that I’m okay with is Accupressure because it doesn’t necessarily increase evasion and could help boost another stat equally and the ones that cause damage such as Mud Slap (very useful early on in the games) and Muddy Water.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Because people are lazy and don't want to have to actually prepare for it. It doesn't take much to set up a Shell Smash Skill Link Cloyster, or a Dragon Dance Outrage Garchomp either, but people don't complain about that constantly. People only complain about RNG when it works against them. If they happen to get the burn from Scald, or the freeze from an Ice Beam, that's just "good luck", but if they get burned or frozen from one of those moves, it's "RNG".
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
Because it's frustrating dealing to accuracy and evasion issues especially when your opponent keeps spamming Double Team or Minimize.

Strategies like that can also drag out battles and nobody wants to sit there and waste time dealing with that.
Minimize isn’t too bad if you have a Pokémon that knows a move that will double in damage on a Minimized Pokémon.
 

Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.
Minimize isn’t too bad if you have a Pokémon that knows a move that will double in damage on a Minimized Pokémon.
But it's not a lot of moves either. At least they bypass accuracy checks in case of Minimize is used. (Yeah i checked for all of em)


Body Slam, Stomp, Astonish, Extrasensory, Needle Arm, Dragon Rush, Shadow Force, Steamroller, Heat Crash, Heavy Slam, Phantom Force, Flying Press, Malicious Moonsault and Double Iron Bash
 

Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
But it's not a lot of moves either. At least they bypass accuracy checks in case of Minimize is used. (Yeah i checked for all of em)


Body Slam, Stomp, Astonish, Extrasensory, Needle Arm, Dragon Rush, Shadow Force, Steamroller, Heat Crash, Heavy Slam, Phantom Force, Flying Press, Malicious Moonsault and Double Iron Bash
I honestly find the idea of a Minimized Chansey running around in a panic as a Stonjourner chases it while using Stomp hilarious.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Because it's frustrating dealing to accuracy and evasion issues especially when your opponent keeps spamming Double Team or Minimize.

Strategies like that can also drag out battles and nobody wants to sit there and waste time dealing with that.
On the other hand, other stalling strategies ARE fairly common, at least in single battles, like Substitute and Leech Seed on Celesteela or the aforementioned Toxic and Cosmic Power Eternatus. As well as any time Toxapex shows up, and to a lesser extent Lapras. That means there's a different factor here, especially since one-hit KO moves, which are banned on Smogon, are not all that rare in Sword and Shield Ranked Battles, in both single and double battles. I mentioned Horn Drill Excadrill as one such case; Stallrein had also returned since Crown Tundra in a minor capacity, and they will always carry Sheer Cold, sometimes Fissure too.

There's also the fact that Pokémon has long since diverged from the tabletop RPGs it was based on; in tabletop RPGs, most of the time, the players don't really care if they succeed or not, as long as an interesting story was created along the way. (Those with an overly strong desire to win are derogatorily called "munchkins.") As a result, people take RNG in tabletop RPGs in stride and may even be entertained with a bad roll. The idea, after all, is to make a good story, and good stories typically have characters who fail every now and then. I think moves like Double Team, Minimize, Smokescreen, Sand Attack, and such were created out of the fact that the original Pokémon team at Game Freak grew up playing tabletop RPGs and thus were not bothered by evasion and accuracy modification.

I think this is reinforced by the fact that evasion and accuracy moves were most common in Generation I. There were fewer and fewer of them made with each passing generation. Generation IV was the last time any such status move was created (Acupressure was the only one), and Generation V was the last time any such Abilities were created (only Moody) as well as the last time attacks were made with evasion/accuracy secondary conditions (Leaf Tornado and Night Daze). After that, nothing affects evasion, and accuracy coutns only with moves below 100% accuracy--and Generation VIII even put the kibosh on Moody affecting evasion and accuracy. (Prior to this, I really did encounter it every now and then, most often on Smeargle but rarely Glalie.) This makes it feel like the Pokémon games had been slowly responding to the desires of the players, who don't necessarily line up in tastes and preferences with tabletop RPG players (and in fact, Pokémon may be the most munchkin-y of all RPGs).
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
Because people are lazy and don't want to have to actually prepare for it. It doesn't take much to set up a Shell Smash Skill Link Cloyster, or a Dragon Dance Outrage Garchomp either, but people don't complain about that constantly. People only complain about RNG when it works against them. If they happen to get the burn from Scald, or the freeze from an Ice Beam, that's just "good luck", but if they get burned or frozen from one of those moves, it's "RNG".
People do complain about set up sweepers but at least those aren’t up to luck. Sweepers are usually prominent in the meta and have designated checks for them. RNG from status moves are obviously potential game changers but even when people are on the benefiting side of that, I see a common feeling of “that’s unfortunate”. With evasion there’s no skill. It’s just “click move and bank on it missing. I’m sure most people would rather lose to a Garchomp than someone spamming Double Team. I can potentially play around a sweeper but I have to hope RNGesus is on my side of my opponent gets Double Team up.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
People only complain about RNG when it works against them. If they happen to get the burn from Scald, or the freeze from an Ice Beam, that's just "good luck", but if they get burned or frozen from one of those moves, it's "RNG".
I've literally said time and time and time and time and time again that Pokemon is fundamentally a terrible competitive game for exactly these reasons regardless of whether it's happening to me or my opponent, but go ahead and beat the crap out of that strawman.

Also, ignoring the fact that Garchomp doesn't learn Dragon Dance, luck is generally not a factor in the use of a set-up sweeper, and in the occasion that it is a factor (such as King's Rock Cloyster) I fully agree that it's uncompetitive and the offending element shouldn't be allowed in a competitive format. The fact of the matter is, either a game must strive to put as much control over the match in the player's hands (and thus away from the whims of RNG) as possible or it isn't competitive by the contemporary colloquial usages of the term. This is again why I consider Pokemon to fundamentally not be a very competitive game as RNG-based mechanics are so heavily baked into the battle system that they will almost always be an influencing factor on a match.
 
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Ophie

Salingerian Phony
I've literally said time and time and time and time and time again that Pokemon is fundamentally a terrible competitive game for exactly these reasons regardless of whether it's happening to me or my opponent, but go ahead and beat the crap out of that strawman.

Also, ignoring the fact that Garchomp doesn't learn Dragon Dance, luck is generally not a factor in the use of a set-up sweeper, and in the occasion that it is a factor (such as King's Rock Cloyster) I fully agree that it's uncompetitive and the offending element shouldn't be allowed in a competitive format. The fact of the matter is, either a game must strive to put as much control over the match in the player's hands (and thus away from the whims of RNG) as possible or it isn't competitive by the contemporary colloquial usages of the term. This is again why I consider Pokemon to fundamentally not be a very competitive game as RNG-based mechanics are so heavily baked into the battle system that they will almost always be an influencing factor on a match.
I'd disagree--games like golf, card games (whether collectible or traditional), rock-paper-scissors, and pinball all have thriving and highly visible competitive scenes even though they all have strong elements of luck that are difficult to impossible to remove while having players who place consistently well year after year. To tell these guys that what they're playing is not competitive because they have elements of chance is the fastest way to earn the ire of the entire fanbase.

Just as in Pokémon, they also all have ways of either reducing the element of chance (collectible card games, rock-paper-scissors, pinball), or ways to adapt to all circumstances and perform consistently well in all of them (golf, traditional card games like Texas Hold 'em). And if you DO consider them not competitive, it's probably best to stay away from the people who participate in these competitions and the fans who watch them.

One thing I will continue to point out is that accuracy and evasion status moves like Double Team and Sand Attack ARE allowed in official Pokémon tournaments and in Sword and Shield Ranked, but they are extremely rare to see--and it's not due to any honor system, but because they're considered impractical and inconsistent, considering one-hit KO moves do see occasional use.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
And if you DO consider them not competitive, it's probably best to stay away from the people who participate in these competitions and the fans who watch them.
I'll post a full response to your post tomorrow (I'm working tonight and typing long form posts on my phone is annoying) but I'm curious what exactly you mean by this. If I didn't know better I'd say this sounds like a threat/passive-aggressive 'warning', but you haven't struck me as the type of person to do that so I'm going to assume that wasn't what you meant here.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
I'll post a full response to your post tomorrow (I'm working tonight and typing long form posts on my phone is annoying) but I'm curious what exactly you mean by this. If I didn't know better I'd say this sounds like a threat/passive-aggressive 'warning', but you haven't struck me as the type of person to do that so I'm going to assume that wasn't what you meant here.
No, there's no threat there, just that they'll take it as an insult, and it's best to avoid trouble. These folks are quite passionate about their games' competitive scenes.

The actual response will vary a lot depending on whom you might say it to, even among subgroups of fans of the same game. For instance, questioning the competitiveness of pinball at Tilt Forums will get you an annoyed response, but one a lot less hostile than if you were to do the same at Pinside, where the atmosphere is more aggressive. In turn, saying it to an actual top-ranked player like Steve Bowden or Keith Elwin would probably result in a long lecture.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
Alright, fair enough. To be honest I'm more worried about what the facts are than what other communities think about me for stating them. If someone's enjoyment of a game or a sport hinges on whether or not other people consider it competitive, that seems pretty shallow to me.

Anyways, let's talk about competitive and how the term is generally used in the context of Pokemon, because that's where a lot of these kinds of arguments stem from. By the most literal definition of competitive, which is any match, competition, tournament, or what have you where both participants are trying to win, Pokemon is competitive. So is Poker, golf, etc. In fact, by that definition, flipping a coin, where neither 'player' has any control over the outcome whatsoever, could be competitive so long as both players desire to win.

However, that strict dictionary definition quickly proves itself inadequate in the context of modern gaming. I'd argue it's been inadequate for a while now, but that's an aside. To illustrate this, let's look at a game that is most definitely competitive by anyone's standards; chess. Luck is essentially not a factor in chess. There is one single degree of entropy in a game of chess and that is deciding who plays the white side and therefore gets to move first. If you lose a game of chess, you can blame only one thing in the entire universe; yourself. There were only two factors at play, you, and your opponent, and your opponent outplayed you. Simple as that. Because of this, extremely good chess players are regarded as some of the most intelligent people on the planet, because they are. They must be to get where they are, there's simply no other way to get there.

There's a clear and fundamental difference between this and, say, Poker (or pinball or golf or any other highly entropic game/sport). While the players within these games do have at least some control over the outcome of the match (skills such as reading your opponents in Poker or timing when to swing the paddles on a pinball machine), the fact of the matter is there are many more degrees of entropy involved, and luck has a much bigger hand in deciding the outcome. If you lose a game of Poker, there's always the chance that you were, in a vacuum, the 'better' player; more knowledgeable, with more skill and experience at all the various nuances that come with playing the game, and you lost simply because you drew bad hands while your opponent drew good ones, and there's essentially nothing you could have done about it. Control over the outcome of the match was not in your hands.

So why is that even important? Poker and pinball and golf are still fun to play, right? Sure, but fun isn't what's in question here. As I've stated before, the literal definition of competitive refers to both parties desiring to win, so we need to look at that in a different light. Why do we want to win? This is a bit more of a psychological topic that I'm pretty underqualified to talk in great detail about, but it essentially boils down to a fundamental human desire to succeed, and the logical path to success is to be better than the rest of the pack in some way, whether it be by being more intelligent, more talented, more knowledgeable, employing superior tactics, etc. I know it seems pretty egocentric to say it this way but it's subconsciously true, even if a lot of people don't like to admit it. Of course, it's no reason not to have sportsmanship, nor does it mean being egocentric or cocky is justified.

Luck is the scourge to this fundamental desire. When you win a luck-based event, it somewhat undermines that victory. That victory means less, generally both to you and to other people spectating it. There will always be that nagging thought, both in your head and the heads of the spectators, that maybe you just got lucky. Maybe you didn't really deserve to win. Maybe you drew a better hand than your opponent did. Maybe the wind blew your golf ball just the right way. Maybe that time you OHKO'd one of your opponent's Pokemon with a critical hit changed the outcome of the match. On the other hand, if someone wins a chess match, it can essentially only be because they were the better player, so naturally there's a lot more respect and admiration for that, and the player themself usually feels more satisfied as that nagging doubt that maybe they just got lucky and didn't really deserve the win simply isn't there. There's no reason for it to be.

This is, in essence, what the modern colloquial usage of the term 'competitive' revolves around, and it's put into practice in more than just chess. A lot of modern competitive FPS games, such as CS:GO and Rainbow Six: Siege, go to extreme lengths to remove randomness from the games, to the point where certain weapons like shotguns, that you would logically expect to spread their pellets in a random fashion, have fixed and predictable pellet spreads, and automatic weapons recoil in predictable ways that allow you to consistently compensate for it, given enough experience. Luck is essentially a non-factor in these games. If you want to be puerile you could argue that no game could ever be truly competitive as there's always the chance that, say, one of the players has a sudden heart attack and drops dead, causing his team to lose, but players have as much agency, as much control over the outcome of the match, as can realistically be expected.

Pokemon isn't a FPS game (it's a turn-based strategy game masquerading as an RPG), but the fundamental principles of competitiveness in its modern usage still apply. It's not as random as a coin flip, and players do arguably have at least the majority of the control, but luck is enough of a factor to undermine a victory in a Pokemon match. Luck can and does swing matches. Player skill is not always the deciding outcome of a match, and manifests itself more through long series of matches. This rubs a lot of players the wrong way, especially ones who are better used to games similar to the aforementioned ones that seek to remove luck as much as possible, with me being one of them. When I win in a game, I want to know that I won because I was, in that match, the better player in some way. In Pokemon, it's hard to ever be certain.

Anyways, I just wrote a seven paragraph essay on a Pokemon forum about what it means for a game to be competitive, I think I'm going to go think about my life decisions now.
 
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Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Alright, fair enough. To be honest I'm more worried about what the facts are than what other communities think about me for stating them. If someone's enjoyment of a game or a sport hinges on whether or not other people consider it competitive, that seems pretty shallow to me.

Anyways, let's talk about competitive and how the term is generally used in the context of Pokemon, because that's where a lot of these kinds of arguments stem from. By the most literal definition of competitive, which is any match, competition, tournament, or what have you where both participants are trying to win, Pokemon is competitive. So is Poker, golf, etc. In fact, by that definition, flipping a coin, where neither 'player' has any control over the outcome whatsoever, could be competitive so long as both players desire to win.

However, that strict dictionary definition quickly proves itself inadequate in the context of modern gaming. I'd argue it's been inadequate for a while now, but that's an aside. To illustrate this, let's look at a game that is most definitely competitive by anyone's standards; chess. Luck is essentially not a factor in chess. There is one single degree of entropy in a game of chess and that is deciding who plays the white side and therefore gets to move first. If you lose a game of chess, you can blame only one thing in the entire universe; yourself. There were only two factors at play, you, and your opponent, and your opponent outplayed you. Simple as that. Because of this, extremely good chess players are regarded as some of the most intelligent people on the planet, because they are. They must be to get where they are, there's simply no other way to get there.

There's a clear and fundamental difference between this and, say, Poker (or pinball or golf or any other highly entropic game/sport). While the players within these games do have at least some control over the outcome of the match (skills such as reading your opponents in Poker or timing when to swing the paddles on a pinball machine), the fact of the matter is there are many more degrees of entropy involved, and luck has a much bigger hand in deciding the outcome. If you lose a game of Poker, there's always the chance that you were, in a vacuum, the 'better' player; more knowledgeable, with more skill and experience at all the various nuances that come with playing the game, and you lost simply because you drew bad hands while your opponent drew good ones, and there's essentially nothing you could have done about it. Control over the outcome of the match was not in your hands.

So why is that even important? Poker and pinball and golf are still fun to play, right? Sure, but fun isn't what's in question here. As I've stated before, the literal definition of competitive refers to both parties desiring to win, so we need to look at that in a different light. Why do we want to win? This is a bit more of a psychological topic that I'm pretty underqualified to talk in great detail about, but it essentially boils down to a fundamental human desire to succeed, and the logical path to success is to be better than the rest of the pack in some way, whether it be by being more intelligent, more talented, more knowledgeable, employing superior tactics, etc. I know it seems pretty egocentric to say it this way but it's subconsciously true, even if a lot of people don't like to admit it. Of course, it's no reason not to have sportsmanship, nor does it mean being egocentric or cocky is justified.

Luck is the scourge to this fundamental desire. When you win a luck-based event, it somewhat undermines that victory. That victory means less, generally both to you and to other people spectating it. There will always be that nagging thought, both in your head and the heads of the spectators, that maybe you just got lucky. Maybe you didn't really deserve to win. Maybe you drew a better hand than your opponent did. Maybe the wind blew your golf ball just the right way. Maybe that time you OHKO'd one of your opponent's Pokemon with a critical hit changed the outcome of the match. On the other hand, if someone wins a chess match, it can essentially only be because they were the better player, so naturally there's a lot more respect and admiration for that, and the player themself usually feels more satisfied as that nagging doubt that maybe they just got lucky and didn't really deserve the win simply isn't there. There's no reason for it to be.

This is, in essence, what the modern colloquial usage of the term 'competitive' revolves around, and it's put into practice in more than just chess. A lot of modern competitive FPS games, such as CS:GO and Rainbow Six: Siege, go to extreme lengths to remove randomness from the games, to the point where certain weapons like shotguns, that you would logically expect to spread their pellets in a random fashion, have fixed and predictable pellet spreads, and automatic weapons recoil in predictable ways that allow you to consistently compensate for it, given enough experience. Luck is essentially a non-factor in these games. If you want to be puerile you could argue that no game could ever be truly competitive as there's always the chance that, say, one of the players has a sudden heart attack and drops dead, causing his team to lose, but players have as much agency, as much control over the outcome of the match, as can realistically be expected.

Pokemon isn't a FPS game (it's a turn-based strategy game masquerading as an RPG), but the fundamental principles of competitiveness in its modern usage still apply. It's not as random as a coin flip, and players do arguably have at least the majority of the control, but luck is enough of a factor to undermine a victory in a Pokemon match. Luck can and does swing matches. Player skill is not always the deciding outcome of a match, and manifests itself more through long series of matches. This rubs a lot of players the wrong way, especially ones who are better used to games similar to the aforementioned ones that seek to remove luck as much as possible, with me being one of them. When I win in a game, I want to know that I won because I was, in that match, the better player in some way. In Pokemon, it's hard to ever be certain.

Anyways, I just wrote a seven paragraph essay on a Pokemon forum about what it means for a game to be competitive, I think I'm going to go think about my life decisions now.
Ah, I think I get where you and I diverge. You are very, very strict on whether or not you feel you've deserved a win. (I also had the impression you meant that competitions should not exist for these games that have strong elements of chance, but I was wrong.) I am personally not bothered by it very much--for me, a win is a win and a loss is a loss, no matter how much luck was involved in it, as long as it was played within the game's rules--and I think this is a common thread for all of these other games with competitions and tournaments that have a high amount of chance.

I see it in a different way. A game can be competitive if you can accumulate skill in it. Even when a game has a high degree of chance, if you find yourself performing better at it with time, it can be competitive. I might not make it to the PGA tours, Pinburgh (an international competition for pinball and the highest-tiered one in the world), or, well, the Pokémon Trading Card Game World Championships, but I know that if I practice enough at these games, I will get consistently better results than when I just got started. That's why major competitions drawing in hundreds to thousands of players with complex world-spanning circuits can exist for all of the games I listed above. And it's why the Spike archetype exists for every collectible card game.

These elements of chance can also be overcome. People like Tiger Woods and Arnold Palmer became legends in golf because they knew how to adapt to any situation. They could accurately swing their clubs so the golf ball lands roughly where they want it to be regardless of temperature, wind speed and direction, terrain, humidity and/or precipitation, or visibility. The Canadian national team for rock-paper-scissors tend to sweep international competitions because they've mastered psychological tricks to predict what their opponents will do, and they were responsible for delegitimizing rock-paper-scissors as a tool for decision-making. Keith Elwin is a 6-time pinball world champion because he not only understands every major pinball machine's rules well enough to maximize points per flip, but is the best person in the world at techniques to prevent the ball from draining. In that sense, I find that luck is itself a skill to be learned. None of these people play perfectly all the time, and they will sometimes get bad games, but it doesn't bug them much, any more than any other loss could've been. But I deem these people just as competitive as people who play in competitions for fighting games or MOBAs.

I feel like I am someone in the same line of thought as these guys, but you are not. There is nothing wrong with how you feel about competitiveness versus how I feel about them, but I think that means I cannot have quite as much fun with the games you'd be into and vice versa. I love Mario Kart, for instance, but based on what you say, I'm guessing you can't stand it. (For the record, pinball competitors in particular are so laid back that they sometimes host gimmick events with rules like "You must keep playing continuously for 24 hours, with less than 5 minutes between games; if you can no longer do so, such as exhaustion or sleepiness, you are eliminated." They don't count towards invitations to Pinburgh, but the big-time players often show up to these anyway to see how they fare under those conditions.)

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on competitions and tournaments where results are decided based on a panel of judges? Something like figure skating can be easily quantified, but something like yo-yoing or America's Got Talent, where large amount of points are given to creativity and originality compared to technical skill and accuracy, cannot.
 
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