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Why I Think Ash Will Win the Alola League

Do you think Ash will win the Alola league?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
Lost to Hau because he had a Decidueye? Despite a major theme of the anime always having been that evolution doesn't guarantee victory?

It says a lot where the battle between a basic starter vs its fully evolved form is the least luck-biased battle in the league.
 

nameman

Well-Known Member
I have awakened from my bridge! Pay my toll and pass!

But seriously, Blue Saturday in another thread highlighted the case for why Ash deserves to win in this more character-based gen sufficiently

  • Incredible emotion throughout the series like when he comforted and was empathetic toward Bebenom after the Minior passed, sobbed over Lugarugan or got pissed at Kuchinasu.

  • Helped all his friends develop or accompanied them in some way (supporting Lillie during the Hoshigumo arc. or training with Kaki)

  • Dynamic Pokemon who were lively and character-focused, he respected their fidelity. Caught Meltan, Iwanko, Nyabby and Mukuroh because they asked but let Bebenom go because he had to protect his world.

  • Actually properly utilizes the Z-Move mechanic of the generation. Got SatoPika-Z as well Lugarugan-Z to boot and the Z-Power Ring!

  • Loved and respected Alola’s culture and constantly showed he thought it was incredible clearly loving things like Battle Royales, Alola forms and Ride Pokemon.

  • Had a timeless encounter with Kid!Kukui and inspired the league on top of helping save jaded Dia’s ruined world from Akuziking as well as his good boi energy helping save Guzma’s heart and restore his smile. The child that affected adult figures.

  • Allowed Iwanko to evolve into what it wants on its own terms, supported Nyabby throughout its arc. with Mooland’s death, cried over Bebenom’s release and was hesitant of doing so.

  • Gave Pikachu a real rival in Mimikyu which it took his most incredible Z-Move to beat.

  • Reunited with his friends and mother from the start his journey regularly and kept them up to date on things.

  • Caught his first legendary/mythical ‘mon, beat his first evil team boss, wins his first league ever on top of it, no last minute dream crusher appears and muddles the affair.

  • The trainer of the Sun, raised and connected to the Emissary of the Sun, Solgaleo. Rivaled the trainer of the Moon and came out on top by the end of things. A good representation of a 10-year-old powerful trainer but also a kid still at the end of the day.
[/QUOTE

I'd like to add though that Alola Ash is still Kalos Ash. Just goofier and not put on as high of a pedestal. He's still the same battler he was there with the same knowledge. He's just been in a more relaxed setting which has caused him not to be as intense as he was in Kalos (he's not coming off a regression like he had from Unova). This team isn't as strong as the Kalos team, but Ash is still the same trainer from XY. Him not winning this League would be an even bigger joke than Kalos was.
 

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
What is a Pokémon master anyway?

I wrote a detailed response to that here.

I don't think the anime intentionally created a vague term. Depending on your interpretation of Ash's opening monologue, "Pokemon Master" is either greater than Pokemon Trainer, or is the title of the greatest Pokemon Trainer.

A vague term the writers came up with so they could give ash an Open ended goal

That's definitely where the writers took it later on. However, I'm not so sure this is what Takeshi Shudo had in mind, given he had the OS anime planned for only a single season. There must have been an exit strategy baked in to the plot that didn't involve losing in the Indigo League.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
That's definitely where the writers took it later on. However, I'm not so sure this is what Takeshi Shudo had in mind, given he had the OS anime planned for only a single season. There must have been an exit strategy baked in to the plot that didn't involve losing in the Indigo League.

Shudo had a more cynical outlook for the 'Pokemon Master' agenda really, and hell the whole Pokemon TRAINER agenda as a whole. His original plan was to have Ash merely acknowledge the title was merely a silly pipe dream with no real meaning, as the Pokemon of the world were given independence from their trainers. Naturally this led to awkwardness when the series continued and the writers were left trying to keep what was meant to be a fake goal ongoing.

I think XY and SM kind of toyed with this idea palpably since the emphasis on Ash as a character seemed less on him becoming a master and how he'd developed into an accomplished person as a by product of trying to reach that undefined goal. I know people were sour about the Kalos loss, but it was poetically handled, that Ash failed at his pipe dream but was still the moral victor in terms of heroism (even if XY kinda tried to have its cake and eat it too with all the league hype beforehand, likely why so many felt ripped off).

SM actually asking 'and then what?' in one episode I think kind of plays on how the role of Master isn't really the endgame for Ash, he doesn't even know what comes next. SM definitely feels like the series he is noticing there is more to life.
 

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
Shudo had a more cynical outlook for the 'Pokemon Master' agenda really, and hell the whole Pokemon TRAINER agenda as a whole. His original plan was to have Ash merely acknowledge the title was merely a silly pipe dream with no real meaning, as the Pokemon of the world were given independence from their trainers. Naturally this led to awkwardness when the series continued and the writers were left trying to keep what was meant to be a fake goal ongoing.

I don't think it was fake. The anime ending as Shudo implied would suggest he had no plan for how to conclude the show, and from testimony we know that isn't the case. Realistically, you can't have a highly motivated child like Ash chasing a literal fantasy. It would be like a normal human boy named Peter Pan devoting his life to brute force his way to a nonexistant Neverland. A tad delusional.

I think XY and SM kind of toyed with this idea palpably since the emphasis on Ash as a character seemed less on him becoming a master and how he'd developed into an accomplished person as a by product of trying to reach that undefined goal. I know people were sour about the Kalos loss, but it was poetically handled, that Ash failed at his pipe dream but was still the moral victor in terms of heroism (even if XY kinda tried to have its cake and eat it too with all the league hype beforehand, likely why so many felt ripped off).

SM actually asking 'and then what?' in one episode I think kind of plays on how the role of Master isn't really the endgame for Ash, he doesn't even know what comes next. SM definitely feels like the series he is noticing there is more to life.

I don't think Kalos had a specific meta narrative around the franchise goal. Both the in-universe and meta appeal of that series revolved around esteem. Cringeworthy though it may be, people like the idea of Ash as a larger-than-live chosen hero, with a special Greninja transformation only he can unlock, and an entourage of adoring fans and enemies who rely on him to solve problems.

That's the superhero mythos that was not coincidentally saturating popular culture during XY's airing. That's also the time period where social media like Reddit (with like/dislikes) overtook forums and imageboards in popularity. People find solace in adolation, so it's easy to see why the Kalos League loss was so catastrophically traumatizing for many people. Their safe space wasn't just invaded, it was bombed and set on fire.

For all the "lower stakes" and grounded growth in SM, it's actually more over the top than Kalos:

-XY Ash wasn't a chosen hero; SM Ash was chosen by a deity (Tapu Koko) in the first episode
-XY Ash saved the world once; SM Ash, as part of the Ultra Guardians, does it every Tuesday
-XY Ash had a special Greninja; SM Ash had a special Lycanroc, a Mythical, Legendary, Ultra Beast and exclusive Z-Crystal
-XY Ash participated in the Kalos League; SM Ash practically co-founded the Alola League

SM casually does a lot of ridiculous things but doesn't make a big deal about it. The legendary island guardians make regular appearances, trainers are raising Mythicals like ordinary pets, Ultra Beasts and legends travel to Alola's forests and oceans just to hang out...it's rather funny when you think about it.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
I don't think it was fake. The anime ending as Shudo implied would suggest he had no plan for how to conclude the show, and from testimony we know that isn't the case. Realistically, you can't have a highly motivated child like Ash chasing a literal fantasy. It would be like a normal human boy named Peter Pan devoting his life to brute force his way to a nonexistant Neverland. A tad delusional.



I don't think Kalos had a specific meta narrative around the franchise goal. Both the in-universe and meta appeal of that series revolved around esteem. Cringeworthy though it may be, people like the idea of Ash as a larger-than-live chosen hero, with a special Greninja transformation only he can unlock, and an entourage of adoring fans and enemies who rely on him to solve problems.

That's the superhero mythos that was not coincidentally saturating popular culture during XY's airing. That's also the time period where social media like Reddit (with like/dislikes) overtook forums and imageboards in popularity. People find solace in adolation, so it's easy to see why the Kalos League loss was so catastrophically traumatizing for many people. Their safe space wasn't just invaded, it was bombed and set on fire.

For all the "lower stakes" and grounded growth in SM, it's actually more over the top than Kalos:

-XY Ash wasn't a chosen hero; SM Ash was chosen by a deity (Tapu Koko) in the first episode
-XY Ash saved the world once; SM Ash, as part of the Ultra Guardians, does it every Tuesday
-XY Ash had a special Greninja; SM Ash had a special Lycanroc, a Mythical, Legendary, Ultra Beast and exclusive Z-Crystal
-XY Ash participated in the Kalos League; SM Ash practically co-founded the Alola League

SM casually does a lot of ridiculous things but doesn't make a big deal about it. The legendary island guardians make regular appearances, trainers are raising Mythicals like ordinary pets, Ultra Beasts and legends travel to Alola's forests and oceans just to hang out...it's rather funny when you think about it.
Yeah, exactly. SM treats ridiculous stuff happening in the Pokemon world like that as completely normal. That's how it should be.

Lemme find the thing I posted on the discord yesterday about XY vs SM. Ah, here it is. (NOTE: XY is my 2nd-favorite series, tied with SM)

"Yeah, that too. See, the problem with XY is that it was basically generic shonen (hero with special powers, satellite love interest, overpowered rival, tagalong kid whose stronger than everyone else because of their connection to a powerful being) with Pokemon characters slapped in. A fun watch, but it feels less like Pokemon each time you watch it. I'd even go so far as to argue that XY doesn't focus enough on the Trainer's relationships with their Pokemon, except in the case of Bonnie and Squishy. Incidentally, I consider Bonnie and Squishy the best characters of the XYZ arc."
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think the trick is that SM utilises these things more in terms of character and world building. I feel like in any previous series they might have felt like plot tricks, cheap hype to make the characters look more remarkable than they really are over developing them more, while here they're more succinct and to help with the atmosphere. They practically in-universe brush off things like Ash being 'the chosen one' or him and Mallow getting 'special' Pokemon in fleeting scenes, like they don't want that to be the central draw of them but more how the personalities work off of it.

SM is the true series to emphasise Pokemon are characters, not commodities, they are their own civilisation as much as humans, series beforehand do TRY to emphasise that but habits and formula sometimes make it hard to pull off. True there's as much chance in the end SM won't play at all into SWSH and be only relatively less self contained as XY, but I appreciate it trying to delve into what was sometimes the greater scope we didn't see before.
 
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Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Man Sun and Moon must really pride itself with being the most controversial series having Ash win the league.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Yeah, exactly. SM treats ridiculous stuff happening in the Pokemon world like that as completely normal. That's how it should be.

Lemme find the thing I posted on the discord yesterday about XY vs SM. Ah, here it is. (NOTE: XY is my 2nd-favorite series, tied with SM)

"Yeah, that too. See, the problem with XY is that it was basically generic shonen (hero with special powers, satellite love interest, overpowered rival, tagalong kid whose stronger than everyone else because of their connection to a powerful being) with Pokemon characters slapped in. A fun watch, but it feels less like Pokemon each time you watch it. I'd even go so far as to argue that XY doesn't focus enough on the Trainer's relationships with their Pokemon, except in the case of Bonnie and Squishy. Incidentally, I consider Bonnie and Squishy the best characters of the XYZ arc."
I KNEW DP WAS YOUR FAVORITE!
 
Yeah, exactly. SM treats ridiculous stuff happening in the Pokemon world like that as completely normal. That's how it should be.

Lemme find the thing I posted on the discord yesterday about XY vs SM. Ah, here it is. (NOTE: XY is my 2nd-favorite series, tied with SM)

"Yeah, that too. See, the problem with XY is that it was basically generic shonen (hero with special powers, satellite love interest, overpowered rival, tagalong kid whose stronger than everyone else because of their connection to a powerful being) with Pokemon characters slapped in. A fun watch, but it feels less like Pokemon each time you watch it. I'd even go so far as to argue that XY doesn't focus enough on the Trainer's relationships with their Pokemon, except in the case of Bonnie and Squishy. Incidentally, I consider Bonnie and Squishy the best characters of the XYZ arc."

“ I'd even go so far as to argue that XY doesn't focus enough on the Trainer's relationships with their Pokemon, except in the case of Bonnie and Squishy “

Not including Ash and Pikachu for obvious reasons, but...

- Clemont and Luxray
- Clemont and Chespin
- Ash and Ash-Greninja
- Ash and Goodra
- Ash and Hawlucha
- Ash and Noivern
- Serena and Pancham
- Serena and Braixen
- Serena and Slyveon
- Bonnie and Dedenne
- Bonnie and Squishy
- Alain and MCX
- Korrina and Lucario

All of the relationships on the top of my head between Pokémon and trainer that I think were focused and built on somewhat well to great. Was this not enough? This is including strong relationships built with the unevolved forms as well
 
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TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
“ I'd even go so far as to argue that XY doesn't focus enough on the Trainer's relationships with their Pokemon, except in the case of Bonnie and Squishy “

- Clemont and Luxray
- Clemont and Chespin
- Ash and Ash-Greninja
- Ash and Goodra
- Ash and Hawlucha
- Ash and Noivern
- Serena and Pancham
- Serena and Braixen
- Bonnie and Dedenne
- Bonnie and Squishy
- Alain and MCX
- Korrina and Lucario

All of the relationships on the top of my head between Pokémon and trainer that I think were focused and built on somewhat well to great. Was this not enough?
I disagree with most of them, except Serena/Braixen, Ash/Goodra, and Bonnie/Squishy (also, Ash/Pikachu is by default a good example but it's in every region). Maybe Korrina/Lucario, too, but she was irrelevant in the end since none of the main cast got Megas. The others felt pretty generic "Trainer-Pokemon" relationships that everyone has. Nothing to make them stand out. Greninja may have gotten a special form, but it really didn't feel like his bond with Ash was different from Ash's bonds with his other Pokemon. Hawlucha had more a connection to Noibat than Ash did.
 
I disagree with most of them, except Serena/Braixen, Ash/Goodra, and Bonnie/Squishy (also, Ash/Pikachu is by default a good example but it's in every region). Maybe Korrina/Lucario, too, but she was irrelevant in the end since none of the main cast got Megas. The others felt pretty generic "Trainer-Pokemon" relationships that everyone has. Nothing to make them stand out. Greninja may have gotten a special form, but it really didn't feel like his bond with Ash was different from Ash's bonds with his other Pokemon. Hawlucha had more a connection to Noibat than Ash did.

I don’t see any difference here between the character and Pokémon relationships between XY and SM. There’s more because there’s a larger cast and I guess it seems more pronounced because SM flanderizes pretty much everything most of the time?

“ Greninja may have got a special form, but it didn’t really feel like his bond with Ash was different “

I struggle to see how someone can say this. Maybe Greninja got a special form because he had a special relationship with Ash? Maybe you didn’t watch the countless focus episodes with Ash and Froakie, Ash and Frogadier, and especially Ash and Greninja/AG, considering that they had pretty much an entire arc built on their relationship.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
XY was also crippled by the problem that larger more detailed Pokemon were harder to animate so often got demoted the moment they evolved. A lot of Pokemon like Luxray, Sylveon and Noivern were barely seen after evolving unless they were needed, the bonds only implied. Even Greninja didn't appear a whole lot outside battles and action scenes, despite interacting heavily with Ash and many other characters as Froakie. It made their characters feel more limited, more props or satellite characters.

SM uses a streamlined animation style so is able to get round this more often. Few Pokemon have been demoted quite as badly and they maintain a heavy emphasis on bonds and family-esque ties between team mates. They also play more on what Hawlucha and Noibat established with teams being developed as much through Pokemon as the trainers, some like Meltan outright joined through bonding with a Pokemon first, connecting with their trainer afterwards.

Also it doesn't feel like SM segments all the cast as strictly as XY does. A problem with XY was even the Pokemon that hadn't evolved and could still interact were mostly just comic relief by that late in its run. The series wasn't interested in developing those undignified losers. SM to compare still has Ash's entire team doing antics and having cute interactions such as in the Pikachu expedition episode, while still trying to give them equal limelight and importance in spite of things like less battles working against them. Greninja would not be caught dead chilling and playing with the others like Lycanroc does, while the likes of Chespin would not be warranted big arc battles like Rowlet is.
 
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XY was also crippled by the problem that larger more detailed Pokemon were harder to animate so often got demoted the moment they evolved. A lot of Pokemon like Luxray, Sylveon and Noivern were barely seen after evolving unless they were needed, the bonds only implied. Even Greninja didn't appear a whole lot outside battles and action scenes, despite interacting heavily with Ash and many other characters as Froakie. It made their characters feel more limited, more props or satellite characters.

SM uses a streamlined animation style so is able to get round this more often. Few Pokemon have been demoted quite as badly and they maintain a heavy emphasis on bonds and family-esque ties between team mates. They also play more on what Hawlucha and Noibat established with teams being developed as much through Pokemon as the trainers, some like Meltan outright joined through bonding with a Pokemon first, connecting with their trainer afterwards.

In XY, Ash was constantly highlighting how important battles are to build relationships with Pokémon and strengthen bonds. He said the same with building relationships with other people. Battles are relationship builders themselves. I wonder what SM lacks of?

SM, while having more of the SoL interactions between Pokémon and Pokémon, Trainer and Pokémon, doesn’t do the above part very well. Even discounting the fact that XY has plenty of SoL and low-key character and Pokémon building moments, it’s obvious that those battles you seem to write off are an entirely different approach vs what SM does
 

Ultra Beast Lover

Well-Known Member
What is a Pokémon master anyway?
Good question, it seems Pokemon gave us an answer...kinda. In Pokemon Masters all of the famous trainers are called Pokemon Masters, implying that you need to do something big or be something important that people will notice. But perhaps Ash has achieved this goal in some people's eyes? He does befriend a lot of legendaries
 

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
In Pokemon Masters all of the famous trainers are called Pokemon Masters, implying that you need to do something big or be something important that people will notice.

What an atrocity.

The most hallowed, elusive title in the entire franchise is whored out to market a fanservice-laden, adult man pandering mobile gacha game.

That's so offensive I'm speechless.
 
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