Could you reiterate, then, because I couldn't possibly remember and it feels like the reason "amourshipping" is probably slapped on there somewhere (and I'd like to address the most likely misconception regarding that, if I can).
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Why is Ash even needed?
- Thread starter MidnightMelody
- Start date
AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I didn't like how she took a long time to find a goal. I understand that it's realistic given her situation, but due of how unpredictable the franchise can be with new trends and releases, I would rather sacrifice that realism and make her start her goal sooner.
I didn't like how they made her notorious with her unfinished/un-KOed battles. I remembered the 2nd Goomy episode she, along with Bonnie, defeated TRio, which was the highlight of that episode to me. I like how she was determined during threatening situations. Then starting with her battle with Aria, Aria called off the battle because she was in a hurry for her appointments which I was forgiving. Then the episode where her Braixen got a new stick, her opponents just crouched down or coughing without any visible injuries, I was starting to get more bit annoyed that the writers really made fun of her.
I didn't like how the showcases was rushed and made her victory hardly believable. I watched other female idols anime and they were made much better than the showcases. I can tell the lack of passion from the part of the writers so that they can get over with the whole thing.
I didn't like how she was used as a ship tease with Ash occasionally after they rushed her goal as an excuse for her to stay relevant instead of doing completely nothing. Even if battling isn't her speciality there's times where she wanted to get involved about dealing with threatening situations and the writers barely show these onscreen.
I didn't like that she barely interact with Clemont, unlike their Pokemons. I thought it would be cool if they could talk each other a bit more. Trying to understand their Pokemons behaviors more.
If they could fix most the issues above, I could forgive for her not having a special episode, but they didn't so I was betting at special for giving her something a little bit more, but it didn't happen.
To be honest, most of these sound like you're just dissatisfied that her character arc didn't the way you think it should go, and represents more a misunderstanding of her character, particularly about her victories (i.e. they're not the point but the vehicle for her character). Either that or they have nothing to do with her actual character arc (while I'd have liked more interaction with Clemont, that's not really about her as a character).
As for the Amour, that's just a fundamental misunderstanding if you see it as mere ship tease because it folds into her entire character. Ash, in general, in XY was the character who affected others. He had reached the peak of his development and thus did different things for different characters. Serena's admiration into love for him affected her character for the positive and it can be seen...but not if you refuse to look at it as more than ship tease. (and I wouldn't say she was rushed into a goal when very early in XY she expresses wanting a goal but not knowing what to do).
Sounds a lot to me like you wanted a bit more of a Dawn clone than Serena.
Razor Claw
Active Member
If he wanted a Dawn clone, he’d get Princess Salvia.
AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Nah, I want Serena to be a badass girl like the OC girl in my Serena fan project. Ash & Dawn got nothing on her.
I just like to bash & taunt the anime status quo like "Is that all you can do producers/writers?". It's fun to me to do, instead of begging them to have my way.
I just like to bash & taunt the anime status quo like "Is that all you can do producers/writers?". It's fun to me to do, instead of begging them to have my way.
Arguably Ash got as close to a league win as he ever will in the Silver Conference and finally defeated his rival Gary. His ability to win around pokemon through compassion and help them find success was mastered. Ash was the most capable version of himself at the end of Johto. To all intents and purposes, Ash's Character Arc ended after his loss to Harrison.
He mostly relearned the same lessons, getting over similar problems and defeating similar rivals all the way through the Kalos region. We never met his father, he never won a league or changed his goals. Ash didn't need to be in any more episodes after Johto. At least not to tell a good story, for marketing purposes he's proven to withstand the test of time.
The real question for me is what kind of character they would get to replace him.
If they replace Ash, the replacements will be at least as hit-and-miss as the Yu-Gi-Oh! sequel protagonists, who IMO were never as interesting as Yugi and Yami. We'd either end up with someone like Playmaker (serious, competent, massively boring) or Jaden (trying too hard to be cool depsite being a total moron)
He mostly relearned the same lessons, getting over similar problems and defeating similar rivals all the way through the Kalos region. We never met his father, he never won a league or changed his goals. Ash didn't need to be in any more episodes after Johto. At least not to tell a good story, for marketing purposes he's proven to withstand the test of time.
The real question for me is what kind of character they would get to replace him.
If they replace Ash, the replacements will be at least as hit-and-miss as the Yu-Gi-Oh! sequel protagonists, who IMO were never as interesting as Yugi and Yami. We'd either end up with someone like Playmaker (serious, competent, massively boring) or Jaden (trying too hard to be cool depsite being a total moron)
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AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I think it would be better if Ash's story ended in Johto then started the trend of the male or female protagonists starting their journeys to compete at the Pokemon league, passing the gyms/trials & defeating the Elite Four & Champions like what was done in the games. That would make their progressions more believable since they started fresh instead of having Ash resetting for each region and have some controversial decisions like a Pikachu can defeat a legendary, then a few episodes later lost against a fresh starter, especially that the mainstreams games are still popular despite the lack of Ash and the different Pikachus that are introduced later during their journeys.
I think the annoyance with her battling was that she was never made to develop any real style to it, she could have had a cool dancing style to battling to give her some agency and competence to it, but they almost systematically tried to keep her underplayed about it until her very last spar with Ash, which about the only time she was forced to do more than spam a few moves. I get she wasn't battle focused goal wise, but XY was so action focused and she kept battling to train her Pokemon and demonstrate some improvement in confidence (plus you know, to build up to her trying contests). It felt like we should have got at least one full and solidly choreographed battle that wasn't either an effortless curbstomp or plot armour decision. She felt like a very awkwardly positioned piece in the whole puzzle when it came to group battle/action sequences.
I feel like this is the reason they stick with Ash, he's a mainstay, so they know from experience they can do...pretty much anything with him, thus way more opportunities with agency and role, while it feels like they often dither and erm and err with what they can get away with doing with the new protagonists in the newer series, especially the girls. Look how many different roles Ash has in SM right now, while the others have far less episodes and sometimes struggle to keep out of a formula, they feel way more comfortable using him.
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AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
To me, you can take Ash out of the equation and I'm pretty sure that they could do much more to her without too much restrictions. This is why bothers me the most, HIS presence that hogs the spotlights over his companions/classmates when they needed, not only a Serena issue. I would have complained as much for the Alolan girls for not doing much as well if I didn't make my fan project to get myself over with.
I know I can be tiring when I bash the status quo & Ash, but I just wanted to say that I don't really approve what the producers/writers were doing to the characters and that despite how experienced they were they weren't flawless to their mistakes.
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I dunno Serena's limelight even without Ash around felt rather formulaic. I've offered a harebrained theory in a previous thread that, all the post-XY girls suffer only one KO at worst, like someone has put a kibosh on them getting beaten down too much. Losing or taking hits back is kind of a necessity to build up on skills and work on holes in method, so Serena never being forced into a corner until her very last battle (about the only time she was forced to battle defensively) really limited her agency in terms of battling and action focus (which unfortunately XY had a lot of), and they couldn't realistically just make her an invincible hero who has the same involvement as Ash without any of the same roadblocks.
Even besides battling however, she relied on all the old formula tricks when the showcases weren't around. The crossdressing episode could have been an amusing filler for example, but Serena neither had the battle skills to make a battle episode last, nor was she comically flawed enough to play out a parable about a well meaning lie spiralling out of control. So it ended the usual cop out way; Ash vs Team Rocket interrupting it with Serena's role forgotten and no implication she learned anything from the whole experience. She had proved unable to drive a simple story in full, which I think also played into her not getting a special over Clemont, who despite being underplayed in the series has proved to have a bit more versatility.
Again the SM cast is underplayed, but you can tell which ones they are more comfortable with because they have the ability to drive an episode all the way through, while the others, to paraphrase one professional quote on the matter, are like watching a character wandering hopelessly with their personality umbilical trying to find somewhere to plug it (before they abort and go 'send in the R-signed clowns'
).
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AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Look, I don't want to drag these arguments further with you or anyone else. I just wanted to write that I never liked Ash, and never will, regardless how much he blends with the theme of the anime series. You embrace the status quo and the logics of the anime, I really don't.
When I made my Serena fanfic, I went all out without any restrictions from the show, I like to experiment stuffs and enjoyed the results. I didn't made this mainly because of my obsession with Serena, the Alolan girls are also there as "cameos", and I would even say that they took more part of the actions than the anime did despite their status. To me depending of the anime producers/writers to have my way is a waste of time. Sorry, but that's how I roll.
Despite my hatred towards the status quo & Ash, I understood why they did it and it's mainly for the market perspective and I'm aware there's fans that care about it. I enjoyed watching some episodes of SM and movies like the Power Of Us despite Ash's presence on them, as long they gave something to the other characters outside of Ash & Pikachu.
Oh heavens, there are moments I just scratch my head in dumbfoundment at the logics of the anime. SM is truthfully the first series I am really taken to Ash as a character really, just I can kinda see why they keep him around on a logical stance.
I feel at least that they're coming to see Ash's benefit as a supporting character better, as in gaining good chemistries with the better handled companions to help their own personalities shine. If they do this more fluidly in later series and are more willing to take Ash out of central focus more often to experiment with the companions' star power a bit more, I think he'd be a more tolerable entity on both ends. Right now I think Ash is a character who can work well on minimal limelight anyway.
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SatoSereFan224888
Well-Known Member
I hope Ash retires after Alola. For Galar he is now a tutor for trainers just starting out on their journeys. Maybe he could be the female trainer’s teacher. That would be nice and cool. Ash would make a great teacher.
LilligantLewis
Bonnie stan
Wow, so after catching up on this thread, this time it shockingly wasn't @DatsRight who turned a non-Serena thread into a Serena thread, but instead @AznKei
AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Yeah, well I'm pretty much anti-status quo and Ash & Pikachu symbolize it. I admit I sometimes cross the line but this is my opinion and I didn't take anything away from pro-Ash fans.
I'm fine about having different tastes & views, but I'm not fine of being influenced/judged on how I should watch the show as I didn't judge any pro-Ash fans for disliking SM.
Unlike others, I'm not too bothered about TRio presence, which is why I praised Bonnie & Serena defeating them in the 2nd Goomy XY episode, as at least they got to do something on their own as minor defeating TRio can be, instead of Ash taking care of everything.
And Serena, it's mainly because I featured her in my fan project, as I believed I did things right on her, whereas the anime did things wrong. I blame the producers insistence of preserving the status quo for the overall not-so-positive handling of Serena.
I'm fine with Team Rocket when it feels like they contribute something of depth to the story and don't cheapen the handling of the other characters. Same for Ash. In both cases they were starting to feel detrimental at times because while they were a large impetus of the show in terms of plot device and limelight, they weren't very good at gaining chemistries with the other characters or adding to their agency. By XYZ they were at their most simplistic and diluted each and every episode, everyone idolised Ash for saving the day and everyone hated and beat up Team Rocket (usually very easily) for butting into every plot with their schemes. Little variation and spontaneous interaction and scenarios occurred with them anymore, meaning they only made other characters' roles more formulaic and limited by their presence. Some episodes for the supporting cast stopped even being about them anymore because 'Ash vs Team Rocket' became the generic culmination of every story, and wasn't even that interesting anymore.
SM tries to have Ash a more versatile element of the story, having genuine chemistries and synergy with other characters to help bring out their personalities. TR still suffered as poor antagonists for a long while, but at least weren't used too often, while Ultra Legends has revived them a little in terms of enhancing the stories and the rest of the cast actually having funny exchanges with them at times. They feel like characters, not props to hide the failed handling of the newer characters.
SM tries to have Ash a more versatile element of the story, having genuine chemistries and synergy with other characters to help bring out their personalities. TR still suffered as poor antagonists for a long while, but at least weren't used too often, while Ultra Legends has revived them a little in terms of enhancing the stories and the rest of the cast actually having funny exchanges with them at times. They feel like characters, not props to hide the failed handling of the newer characters.
BlueDragonfangirl
Well-Known Member
Man, you guys can keep wishing that but if any time he was to retire it would have been in Best Wishes or Sun and Moon and that didn't happen.
I like his character, he's my favorite and am glad the Anime kept him as lead character though i do hope they change the Animation again, Sun and Moon does not fit Ash in my opinion.
Apslup
Feelin' Fine.
I wanted Ash to be replaced at the end of XY/Z. Give him a Pokemon League and a girlfriend and leave him be, but I've accepted that he's here to stay.
While there is the Pikachu argument, it really isn't that difficult to just give the new protag a Pikachu as their starter.
There is also the brand image argument, since a new protag will be a lot less recognisable to the general public. It would cause a big mainstream media stir with a new protagonist, bringing more publicity to the franchise. He doesn't even need to be that different from Ash in terms of design really.
But he's here to stay and we just need to accept it.
While there is the Pikachu argument, it really isn't that difficult to just give the new protag a Pikachu as their starter.
There is also the brand image argument, since a new protag will be a lot less recognisable to the general public. It would cause a big mainstream media stir with a new protagonist, bringing more publicity to the franchise. He doesn't even need to be that different from Ash in terms of design really.
But he's here to stay and we just need to accept it.
Captain Jigglypuff
*On Vacation. Go Away!*
Ash is you’re generic “good guy” character that always happens to be at the right place at the right time and willing to solve the problems of random usually one time only characters. And Ash will never be phased out simply because of Pikachu being the Pokémon mascot.